Do judges at either IMPS or AMPS modeling contests take in consideration the quality of the kit ? What I mean is... if the judges are undecided on two models of the same subject and one of those kits is known as a real dog to clean all the flash and seem lines.

Will the judges take that into consideration... in their final choice between the two? Or do they go straight from the book on construction and painting?

I guess it all depends who's judging ?
generally its first impressions that help then technical ability ,a little scratch building and conversion work do go a long way ,

Maybe...

Basics first at IPMS. If you make the first cut, and all the basics are right, then you go on to other factors. Since no one has built every kit, there's no way that difficulty can be formally included in the criteria. What may and does happen, is if a judge is familiar with the kit, he is likely to look for needed corrections, such as knowing where the sink holes are. I know it sounds like nit picking, but at most events judges are tasked with picking the best three models on the table and that often means eliminating a model based on a tiny flaw. I also know this upsets a lot of newcomers and I'm one of the people who have supported a move to open (AMPS/figure) style judging where a modeler is rewarded based solely on how well he performed on the model, not opn whether there was a supremely better builder who showed up in that class that day. Conversely, this leads to potentially weak models taking high awards at every level, from the local hundred model contest up to the Nationals. (In some quarters that previous statement is heresy enough to bring on the Spanish Inquisition!)

Correction of errors in scale or detail are not primary IPMS criteria, no matter what you here about rivet counters and color Nazis, this just isn't the official policy.

If it comes down to two kits, and one has been accurized well over one that has minimal added detail, the nod should go to the one with the extra effort.

I've only judged at two AMPS local events so I'll defer to our AMPS brethren on that.

SOAPBOX ALERT!
The best way to find out about what judges look for is to volunteer to help with judging. You don't need to be an expert, all you need are your Mk.I eyeballs and honest objectivity. IMHO, you'll also learn a lot about modelling from the experience.

I t shouldn't make any difference to the judges ..They are supposed to judge what they see so the joints have to be well done and all the seams taken care of , no matter what the base kit looks like .. Now do all judges go exactly by the book ...I know when I used to judge that if things were tight ,I would take it into consideration to maybe break a tie. Didn't happen often though. Blah ! I hate judging ! No more!

Rick

Hi Babva!

Just think that the Judge(s) don't care who the manufacturer is!
If you want to include documentation to your entry (instruction leeflet, construction notes and pictures, full list of materials used and reference books) they will take in consideration the amount of work and commitment you took to achieve that result - the finish model!

But... (there's always a but)
Flash and seems lines are one of those "things" that judges will look first - so that they can cutdown the size of model to see with the magnifying lens!

The others are Ejector pin marks and other "gifts" that models usualy bring.
Next will be Glue spots, Glue excess, Painting and weathering, accuracy, and so on and so on

You can make a very good model OOB with no PE or extra detailing if you'll pay attention to this "flaws"...

Also pay atention to the class you put your model to!!!
It could be a winner, but if it's on the wrong class

Hope I could help [I now you will have a lot of work now ]

Skipper

With some of the fantastic scratchbuilding, resin, PE and aftermarket conversions/replacements out there it's a wonder that anyone can tell what was the original kit.

Thanks for the replies... Jim

I'll have to double check the AMPS judging guidelines, or you could, at http://www.amps-armor.org/dnn/Default.aspx?tabid=29

There is a LOT of good stuff about what AMPS judges are supposed to be looking for there. I highly recommend reading it.

In AMPS there is 1point available, of the total possible 10 per judge, for technical difficulty/scope of effort.

quoted from the page above.
(3) Detail/Difficulty

(a). Degree of Difficulty and Scope of Effort (1.0 point)
Judge is to look at the effort the modeler made to create a model that is something over and above an Out of the Box model. This work does not merely mean replacing parts (that is covered in another sub category), it is what the modeler has done to make the model special. Is it a jewel created from a rock? Is it a conversion that he actually worked on (not merely dropped in as a kit)? Is the model a convincing example of what is a VERY difficult model to build? Has he taken that extra step to create something over and above an Out of the Box model? It is the responsibility of the modeler to prove the work that he has done.


I am of the opinion that AMPS is beginning to stand for the aftermarket preservation and modeling society.
I feel the emphasis on the aftermarket-laden 'toss the kitchen sink at the kit' direction AMPS has taken lately is not a good idea.

It seems to me that to do well there one MUST gild the lilly.
I know there is NOT an ootb class or catagory at AMPS, but a clean build of a quality -Tamiya- kit, as an intermediate modeler, will not score very far into the range of silver medal, and in my experience in the last 2 years at AMPS nats and AMPS east, NO chance of a gold.

My US$0.02
your mleage may vary.

Mike

i have judged quite a bit at amps, when judging a kit the quality of the work is the first bench mark. However since in most cases we are aware of the dog like nature of a specific kit., it only highlights/enhances the quality of the work. But no,special consideration is not given if the kit is particularly "rough".rgds jim

Mike:

I wouldn't be so sure that aftermarket is always the way to a gold in AMPS. While I have never been to the AMPS Nats, I have been to several AMPS Midwest Regionals (as well as countless IPMS contests all over the place).

IMHO, AMPS judges are much more likely to notice that you have made a silk purse out of a sow's ear and give you credit for it. Judging teams I have been on have given bonus points for scratchbuilt or skillfully modified kit parts more often than for simply adding aftermarket parts. And we've docked points for aftermarket that was badly done (wrong placement, irregular finish, superglue blobs or haze, etc.)

At IPMS contests, however, judges tend to be less knowledgable of the category they judge because they cannot judge the categories they entered (and usually where their expertise lies). That's one reason why the basics of model building are stressed so much in IPMS judging -- that is one area where the judges should be on equal ground, no matter what their preference in modeling subjects. IPMS judges also usually prefer lighter weathering because heavy weathering is sometimes used in an attempt to cover up flaws in basic modeling skills.

I have never, ever, heard a judge at either IPMS or AMPS pick one model over another simply because one builder used aftermarket and another one didn't.

I can't speak for how things work at AMPS Nats or AMPS East because I haven't been there, but if you got an Intermediate Silver at AMPS Midwest, you'd probably have a pretty good idea why if you looked at the comments on your judging sheets.

snipped a bit here and there




well, that's not my experience. Since I was trying to make a silk purse out of a .. ummm.. silk purse. Specifically Tamiya's Leo 2A5.
That's a kit that needs -almost - no aftermarket additions.
From reading over on ML, I did add a few bits and bobs, chain for pins and smoke launcher caps, etc.. but the molding on the tool clamps is first rate, and the injection plastic engine grills are better than the etch set I saw for the kit!




I agree for AMPS, but not for smaller local IPMS shows. The AMPS scoring system lets everyone who meets a given standard get a medal. IPMS forces a table full of good or great models into a 1-2-3 race.




unfortuantely no, not too helpful. Nothing like, missed huge glue blob on tracks, or get turret sides to allign. Mostly I got stuff like "nice NATO tri-color cammo paint job, more weathering" or 'could have used MV lenses' and the worst of all someone on the judging team convinced the others that the muzzle reference system, which is on top of the barrel in an Abrams, but is alongside the barrel in the Leo 2A5 had been attached to the kit in the wrong position. I did not have the directions with me, so I could not defend my build.


Don't get me wrong, I like AMPS and in some ways more than the IPMS system. But I feel AMPS is leaning far too heavily toward the aftermarket end of the spectrum.

Mike