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DML Figures, why no SS tags?
TsunamiBomb
Member Since: September 21, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 04:29 PM UTC
I went to my local hobby shop today and was looking at the Dragon figures. I looked at the "so called" SS figures. On the box art I noticed there werent ever any SS tags on the collar of their tunic. The only thing I ever saw Nazi Related was a HitlerJugend armband on one of the figures. Is their a reason for this? Are the boxartist's not allowed to do SS tags for it might discourage modelers to buy this? Or were they simply lazy? :-) Im just kidding on that one< Thanks in advance Cheers and a Happy New Years!
PorkChop
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 04:47 PM UTC
As far as I understand, in some parts of Europe and other parts of the world, those symbols are simply forbidden, including on products that are sold in those countries.That includes box art and the covers of magazines, for example.
I can't speak for DML's decsions, but I would suspect it's eaiser to leave them off and let the modeler do their own reseach and painting rather than not marketing that product in said part of the world.
I can't speak for DML's decsions, but I would suspect it's eaiser to leave them off and let the modeler do their own reseach and painting rather than not marketing that product in said part of the world.
Henk
Member Since: August 07, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 04:47 PM UTC
Not sure about this specific kit, but I do know that there seems to have been a change lately. I first noticed this when I bought a Revell 1:32 BF 109. Very comprehensive decal sheet, but the tailfin swastikas are missing.. this now seems to be the rule rather than an exeption, and might have to do with the very strong anti nazi rules in Germany. The showing of nazi emblems is forbidden, completly. For example, there is a separate version of the comp. game 'Return to Castle Wolfenstein' for Germany, with all reference, swastikas etc removed. The ordinary (uncensored) version I believe has a warning at the beginning that if you are German, or live or play in Germany, you are not allowed to load and play the game.... I mean for pitty sake. They really seem to think that seeing a swastika will turn you into a nazi, or indeed that baning it will make it go away. People won't learn from history will they?
I know that old airplane kits had the swastika's, I build some in my early years. My first kit was a M 262... aaah memories.. but I digress.
So there you have it, I think it's because of the over reaction of those who think that they should make the decisions for us, what we can or can not see/hear/do.
It's becuase us is stoopid..
Henk
I know that old airplane kits had the swastika's, I build some in my early years. My first kit was a M 262... aaah memories.. but I digress.
So there you have it, I think it's because of the over reaction of those who think that they should make the decisions for us, what we can or can not see/hear/do.
It's becuase us is stoopid..
Henk
Henk
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 04:56 PM UTC
Sorry me again
It's OK to go around a quite neigbourhood in any stolen vehicle of your choosing, drive like a lunatic, killing and maiming crooks, hoods, and innocent bystanders (I like to bash their heads in with a simple but reliable basebal bat
:-) 
), picking up woman for money, etc etc, but you are not allowed to buy(build?) an accurate scale model of a time gone by........If I think about it to much, it can really get me going.
Freedom of speech and expression, can't really argue with that can you?
Henk
It's OK to go around a quite neigbourhood in any stolen vehicle of your choosing, drive like a lunatic, killing and maiming crooks, hoods, and innocent bystanders (I like to bash their heads in with a simple but reliable basebal bat
:-) ), picking up woman for money, etc etc, but you are not allowed to buy(build?) an accurate scale model of a time gone by........If I think about it to much, it can really get me going. Freedom of speech and expression, can't really argue with that can you?
Henk
3442
Member Since: March 23, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 06:11 PM UTC
must agree with hank, they allow violent video games, have tv show showing people shooting each other and not long ago a video game that gave you the chance to win money if you re-created kenedys murder(correct me if the details are wrong, bad memory) but you cant have the swastika on an acurate piece of armor or plane? something isnt right... sure horrible things have been commited during ww2, but not only by the germans, canadians and brits and americans most lickely commited crimes also, at least ive been told 
hopefully iam not offensing anyone or braking any rules.
Frank
hopefully iam not offensing anyone or braking any rules.
Frank
Henk
Member Since: August 07, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 06:26 PM UTC
I think that this discussion should be under the Junk-box banner......
Would somebody with the power be able to change that.
Henk
Would somebody with the power be able to change that.
Henk
TsunamiBomb
Member Since: September 21, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 02:27 AM UTC
I watched a show last night called nazi america. It showed that we sent American German Citizens into camps to keep them from becoming Nazi's. There were specific camps for The German People and The actual nazis that praised adolf. It said that the German People came out of the concentration camps more Fascist than they went in! What kind of stuff is that, just because they are from a nation with a horrible dictator and a few nasty generals we have to send them to camps to make them not become nazis. Instead they turn more fascist. I think its just what the American Society wanted back then, to proove to everyone that Germans were bad people. Which is not true. I know a Waffen-SS veteran that said he only thought it was rumors of what hitler was doing to the Jewish people. I watched a movie named "Indiana Jones, Raiders of the Lost Arch" for christ sake they even called them nazis in that movie, which we watched at school! I do understand what they did was wrong, but not every german was like that.
Henk
Member Since: August 07, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 02:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
what the American Society wanted back then, to proove to everyone that Germans were bad people. Which is not true.
Fair comment, not all Germans were bad (or indeed now), and the German people as a whole were caught up in the whole affair, esspecialy later on, without an option as voicing your disagreement with Hitler or his policies would have bought you the same one way ticket on the Deutsche Bahn.. but remember, without getting into long drawn discussions here, that they voted him in in the first place. Ignorance is no excuse for denial...
Quoted Text
I know a Waffen-SS veteran that said he only thought it was rumors of what hitler was doing to the Jewish people.
Oh please, I hardly think that any veteran would boost about such things. What unit or division did he serve in?
As for the Americans rounding up people on suspision of not agreeing with the American Way, did the same thing not happen in the 50's with the communists. I thought Freedom of Speech is your first ammendment.
Right, enough of this soapbox, I'm back to my airbrush.
Cheers
Henk
ex-royal
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 03:18 AM UTC
Political ranting has no place here Guy's. So how bout just ending it before the conversation takes a nose dive. Probably best IMHO. This thread has gone far off topic gents.
Harrison,
The simple answer to your question is that the Symbols of Nazism are illegal in some countries I.e Germany. The reasons should be quite obvious why as well.
Bryan
Harrison,
The simple answer to your question is that the Symbols of Nazism are illegal in some countries I.e Germany. The reasons should be quite obvious why as well.
Bryan
bowjunkie35
Member Since: November 19, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 03:34 AM UTC
Sorry Bryan, just saw your post and edited mine.
TsunamiBomb
Member Since: September 21, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 03:44 AM UTC
Ok, We'll end it. The guy I know is Gerhard Franzky. He was in the 10th-SS frundesburg. He later went into the US army and faught in the Vietnam war. I dont really understand what you mean by boost? I can see what you mean though if the word "boost means" deny. But we had a lot of talks about what hitler did and how he felt about it, what he didnt know and what he knew.
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 04:00 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I dont really understand what you mean by boost?
I think it was a typo for "boast" which fits the context quite well. They point is like a certain colonel who had amazing lapses of memory while testifying before congress.
october
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 06:57 AM UTC
Individuals do tend to be nice people and sixty years is along time to mellow in,but individuals act very differently in groups and the Waffen SS were as you are probably well aware the ideological military of that regiem which went alittle further than 'a horrible dictator and a few nasty generals'.
Maybe the Swastika is band to protect the nieve.
October
Maybe the Swastika is band to protect the nieve.
October
ShermiesRule
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 09:05 AM UTC
Back to the original point....
It is much cheaper to produce a package lacking a few details, such as Nazi symbols, than it is to produce different boxes for different regions.
Fortunately these are just model kits so it's easy. Try doing labeling for chemical products, like I used to do. Each country and even each city may have completely different rules. Some rules may even contradict rules from other regions. In that case you have no choice but to produce local content. It is a huge advantage to have one product being able to be used and shipped to any country in any region.
It is much cheaper to produce a package lacking a few details, such as Nazi symbols, than it is to produce different boxes for different regions.
Fortunately these are just model kits so it's easy. Try doing labeling for chemical products, like I used to do. Each country and even each city may have completely different rules. Some rules may even contradict rules from other regions. In that case you have no choice but to produce local content. It is a huge advantage to have one product being able to be used and shipped to any country in any region.
Uruk-Hai
Member Since: January 31, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 09:21 AM UTC
In some kits the swastika decals are cut out or simply not included. In others the swastiska is in two or more parts. You have to do the illegal moves yourself. 
I dont know whether its true or just a myth but Ive heard about this guy who was fined for displaying P-47 Mustang. The Mustang had tiny killmarks in the shape of swastikas.
I dont like censorship and if there are nazis getting a kick out of building models of third reich objects with swastikas its a lot better than having them on the streets doing nazi stuff.
I dont know whether its true or just a myth but Ive heard about this guy who was fined for displaying P-47 Mustang. The Mustang had tiny killmarks in the shape of swastikas.
I dont like censorship and if there are nazis getting a kick out of building models of third reich objects with swastikas its a lot better than having them on the streets doing nazi stuff.
husky1943
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 10:33 AM UTC
Ciao Harrison,
Hey, I see that you are a History channel junkie (probably like the rest of us.) I watched several shows in a row actually yesterday, including the show about the KKK. Once, when I was a kid I walked into a head at a local store, and saw a business card for the klan stuck in light switch face. I was so bothered by it, I don't even think I used the bathroom.
Ciao for now
Rob
Hey, I see that you are a History channel junkie (probably like the rest of us.) I watched several shows in a row actually yesterday, including the show about the KKK. Once, when I was a kid I walked into a head at a local store, and saw a business card for the klan stuck in light switch face. I was so bothered by it, I don't even think I used the bathroom.
Ciao for now
Rob
mikeli125
Member Since: December 24, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 10:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
In some kits the swastika decals are cut out or simply not included. In others the swastiska is in two or more parts. You have to do the illegal moves yourself.
I dont know whether its true or just a myth but Ive heard about this guy who was fined for displaying P-47 Mustang. The Mustang had tiny killmarks in the shape of swastikas.
I dont like censorship and if there are nazis getting a kick out of building models of third reich objects with swastikas its a lot better than having them on the streets doing nazi stuff.
There was a P-47 on the front of FSM the other month and the swastikas had been removed from the kill markings. Even though the symbols aren't illegal here in the UK you cant even show these on Ebay . If you want some best off buying some from the likes of archer
TsunamiBomb
Member Since: September 21, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 12:31 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Individuals do tend to be nice people and sixty years is along time to mellow in,but individuals act very differently in groups and the Waffen SS were as you are probably well aware the ideological military of that regiem which went alittle further than 'a horrible dictator and a few nasty generals'.
Maybe the Swastika is band to protect the nieve.
October
I disagree with your opinion but totally understand what you are saying. The Waffen-SS were front-line units unlike their ugly sister The Algemeine-SS which were the nasty generals and the horrible dictators that held the concentration camps. The media today and from the past really make the SS look bad. In real life the Waffen-SS was a group of guys that were fighting for their country. This group of guys were the elite guys with the best camo and best tactics. The people who joined werent necessarily fascist but more into the tactics and the way the Waffen-SS faught in battle. Though there were the few who would praise hitlers feicies if he went to the bathroom infront of them. :-)
Dont take this the wrong way, by all means I am not fascist or agree with Hitler in anyway. I am simply showing my opinion. Some may be wrong and some might be right. Thanks in Advance!
lestweforget
Member Since: November 08, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 02:19 PM UTC
Harrison....
it seems to me, you have a very profound vision in your mind, that the waffen ss, are something to be glorofied, or respected as honorable troops?
Harrison, these guys were very much the elite troops of the german army, they certainly did have the most modern weapons, but guess what, they did kill civilians, it was not just these Algemeine-SS, the waffen ss DID kill civilians, Russians, Polish, and French, and used their wonderfuly advanced weaponary to do so.
it seems to me, you have a very profound vision in your mind, that the waffen ss, are something to be glorofied, or respected as honorable troops?
Quoted Text
The media today and from the past really make the SS look bad. In real life the Waffen-SS was a group of guys that were fighting for their country. This group of guys were the elite guys with the best camo and best tactics.
Harrison, these guys were very much the elite troops of the german army, they certainly did have the most modern weapons, but guess what, they did kill civilians, it was not just these Algemeine-SS, the waffen ss DID kill civilians, Russians, Polish, and French, and used their wonderfuly advanced weaponary to do so.
AndersHeintz
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 02:25 PM UTC
Sorry guys this is off topic, but I have to respond to such an ignorant post.
Sure some or even most of the SS were patriotic soldiers for the time. Who wouldnt be after being put through the third reich's brain washing process, especially that of the SS?
As for joining up because they like the tactics and they way the SS fought...please! You wanna join the rangers because their tactcs rock? Haha, dont think so, they probably joined because they wanted to take part of the third reichs growth, to be part of an elite unit, an elite FACIST unit btw, to be with the best. I seriosly doubt that anyone would last long in the early SS units if they were not hardcore nazis, besides it was voluntary with strict guidelines. If not they would be in the Heer beacuse they had to.
But to say few of the SS praised Hitler is a mild understatement (atleast until the end of the war). SS was the elite troops, dedicated to Hitler and his cause, and yes, this including the racial extermination of all others then aryans.
I havent heard of many Wehrmacht units performing mass executions of civilians, massacres like Malmady, Honsfeld, Bulligen and Baugnez.
I know they have awesome tactics, awesome uniforms etc, but don't come here trying to tell me that they were all good people who have been made to look bad by the media. Thats like saying that Saddam wasnt really bad....just the media made him look like that (although the liberal media have done their best to make him look pretty good, go Dan Rather!!)
Quoted Text
The people who joined werent necessarily fascist but more into the tactics and the way the Waffen-SS faught in battle. Though there were the few who would praise hitlers feicies if he went to the bathroom infront of them.
Sure some or even most of the SS were patriotic soldiers for the time. Who wouldnt be after being put through the third reich's brain washing process, especially that of the SS?
As for joining up because they like the tactics and they way the SS fought...please! You wanna join the rangers because their tactcs rock? Haha, dont think so, they probably joined because they wanted to take part of the third reichs growth, to be part of an elite unit, an elite FACIST unit btw, to be with the best. I seriosly doubt that anyone would last long in the early SS units if they were not hardcore nazis, besides it was voluntary with strict guidelines. If not they would be in the Heer beacuse they had to.
But to say few of the SS praised Hitler is a mild understatement (atleast until the end of the war). SS was the elite troops, dedicated to Hitler and his cause, and yes, this including the racial extermination of all others then aryans.
I havent heard of many Wehrmacht units performing mass executions of civilians, massacres like Malmady, Honsfeld, Bulligen and Baugnez.
I know they have awesome tactics, awesome uniforms etc, but don't come here trying to tell me that they were all good people who have been made to look bad by the media. Thats like saying that Saddam wasnt really bad....just the media made him look like that (although the liberal media have done their best to make him look pretty good, go Dan Rather!!)
TsunamiBomb
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 02:29 PM UTC
I never said they didnt do so. Keep in mind that all the other countries, beleive it or not even THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA killed civilians. I dont glorify the waffen-ss lol, I am just pointing out my opinion. I do realise what majority of the stuff they did was very wrong. I hate them for doing that. But imagine how glorified they would be by all countries if the holocoust wouldnt have happend. I hate the germans for what they did to the Jewish and etc., and by all means if I was a civilian, jewish, homosexual, jipsy, etc. I would hate their guts.
Im sorry if this sounds a bit odd, I dont think I can express to you what I do feel about them with words for I dont think that my verbal skills are good enough. But keep in mind, I am no rascist or fascist or socialist and I do not agree with all of the people who are. Someday I want to find out why these people are like this so I could maybe help them out. Because they have some serious issues if they beleive in "Der Fuhrer" or the KKK. All that is just horribly wrong.
I am not going to try to defend the SS against all you hardcore historians, lol for the battle for me is defeat. Im on your guys side, just making my opinion.
Im sorry if this sounds a bit odd, I dont think I can express to you what I do feel about them with words for I dont think that my verbal skills are good enough. But keep in mind, I am no rascist or fascist or socialist and I do not agree with all of the people who are. Someday I want to find out why these people are like this so I could maybe help them out. Because they have some serious issues if they beleive in "Der Fuhrer" or the KKK. All that is just horribly wrong.
I am not going to try to defend the SS against all you hardcore historians, lol for the battle for me is defeat. Im on your guys side, just making my opinion.
PorkChop
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 02:36 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Ok, We'll end it.
Either this topic comes back to the issue of modeling or we will end it.
It's important to keep in mind there are many differerent people from around the world that use this site and indeed the internet -- I would suspect a few of those people have been directly affected by the actions of the SS. Please be mindful of them as well.
This thread had some value at one point, but has taken a step far away from that.
TsunamiBomb
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 02:44 PM UTC
Ok, I agree, this is my Thread that I started and it turned off topic. If you would like you can delete it or just let it run off. Im very sorry for the inconvienence.
sgirty
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 02:50 PM UTC
HI. Don't forget folks, all nations throughout their history have been guilty of genicidal practices, and we in the U.S. can't turn a blind eye by saying that it has never happened here.
And also don't forget there were many major American corporations deeply involved with the Nazis all during the war who went right on shipping raw materials, oils and aviation fuels, and a host of other intelligence information on new equipments, not only with our government's knowledge, but with it's backhanded blessings as well which, all in all, helped to prolong this conflict by many months.
Now this isn't to say the Nazis themselves should be glorified in in shape, fashion, or form, any person with any lick of common sense should know this, but these 'scum of the earth' at that time had quite a bit of help in pulling those triggers and putting in those gas pellets from a wide range of individuals around the world. After all, money and power do not take sides in any conflict, and thusly has no national allegience that it has to follow.
Remember, there has never been a war fought where there was such a thing as the good guys in the white hats vs. the bad guys in the black hats. Because if you really start digging you're going to find that those white hats get real dirty very quickly. This is a shame, but it is nonetheless a fact of history.
Take care, Sgirty
And also don't forget there were many major American corporations deeply involved with the Nazis all during the war who went right on shipping raw materials, oils and aviation fuels, and a host of other intelligence information on new equipments, not only with our government's knowledge, but with it's backhanded blessings as well which, all in all, helped to prolong this conflict by many months.
Now this isn't to say the Nazis themselves should be glorified in in shape, fashion, or form, any person with any lick of common sense should know this, but these 'scum of the earth' at that time had quite a bit of help in pulling those triggers and putting in those gas pellets from a wide range of individuals around the world. After all, money and power do not take sides in any conflict, and thusly has no national allegience that it has to follow.
Remember, there has never been a war fought where there was such a thing as the good guys in the white hats vs. the bad guys in the black hats. Because if you really start digging you're going to find that those white hats get real dirty very quickly. This is a shame, but it is nonetheless a fact of history.
Take care, Sgirty
ex-royal
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 02:57 PM UTC
Can the Moderator Lock this thread down? NO POLITICAL RANTING . C'mon guys stick within the guidlines of the formums. I hate to see these types of threads because someone will always walk away with a bad taste in their mouth.
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