I am getting cold with our discussions on the Russian Campaign. Let's try a warmer climate for discussion. The Japanese thoroughly plan an attack on the US Pacific Fleet anchored at Pearl Harbor. The task force that sails for Hawaii contained an impressive amount of surface vessels. However, aside from a devastating air attack, the Japanese make no further strikes at Hawaii on December 7th. Question: should the Japanese have conducted a shore bombardment of the Oahu? If so, why didn't the Japanese conduct a shore bombardments of targets either in Pearl or elsewhere? They certainly knew how to do it as evidenced by their actions in August of 1942 at Henderson Field during the Guadalcanal operation.
DJ
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Pacific Action
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 02:01 AM UTC
CaptainJack
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Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 02:11 AM UTC
DJ,
I think the simple fact was that the Japanese didn't expect the success that they encountered, nor was there any follow up plan to the attack. In typical oriental strategy, such as that of the samurais of the 16th century, they often attacked ferociuosly, then withdrew, not pressing their advantage. Pulling a rather daring cross refence here, I believe it might be something in their mores, their ethos or whatever, thet lead them to the pinnicle of victory, and thus winning the day is their ultimate goal, the warriors creed. Additionally, I'm pretty certain that I read that there was a split in the Japanese parliment on taking this decision. Evidently parlimentary talks continued almost up to the day of the attack. Bearing this in mind with the heart of their fleet storming perhaps int oblivion, it is understandable that a follow up plan had not been envisioned. Finally, with the moral blows being delivered to the Japanese sense of self/Ego, and allowing little manuvering, the Japanese felt impelled to "save face" against what was seen as western autocracy
Don't know if any of that makes sense, but it seems to.
Jackology
I think the simple fact was that the Japanese didn't expect the success that they encountered, nor was there any follow up plan to the attack. In typical oriental strategy, such as that of the samurais of the 16th century, they often attacked ferociuosly, then withdrew, not pressing their advantage. Pulling a rather daring cross refence here, I believe it might be something in their mores, their ethos or whatever, thet lead them to the pinnicle of victory, and thus winning the day is their ultimate goal, the warriors creed. Additionally, I'm pretty certain that I read that there was a split in the Japanese parliment on taking this decision. Evidently parlimentary talks continued almost up to the day of the attack. Bearing this in mind with the heart of their fleet storming perhaps int oblivion, it is understandable that a follow up plan had not been envisioned. Finally, with the moral blows being delivered to the Japanese sense of self/Ego, and allowing little manuvering, the Japanese felt impelled to "save face" against what was seen as western autocracy
Don't know if any of that makes sense, but it seems to.
Jackology
sniper
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Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 02:16 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I am getting cold with our discussions on the Russian Campaign. Let's try a warmer climate for discussion. The Japanese thoroughly plan an attack on the US Pacific Fleet anchored at Pearl Harbor. The task force that sails for Hawaii contained an impressive amount of surface vessels. However, aside from a devastating air attack, the Japanese make no further strikes at Hawaii on December 7th. Question: should the Japanese have conducted a shore bombardment of the Oahu? If so, why didn't the Japanese conduct a shore bombardments of targets either in Pearl or elsewhere? They certainly knew how to do it as evidenced by their actions in August of 1942 at Henderson Field during the Guadalcanal operation.
DJ
DJ,
I don't think the Japanese wanted to get that close to the islands and risk their fleet. I don't see what would have been accomplished by shelling the beaches from 10 miles offshore.
The goal was to destroy the American fleet, particulary the carriers, crippling their capacity to fight the Japanese. The Japanese didn't want to move West but rather South to get all that nice oil. They wanted to go into the Dutch East Indies. That's what's very interesting. What happens to the Dutch East Indies when Holland falls?
Destroying the American fleet means Japan won't be threatened in the South West Pacific.
Remember, in June of 1940, the Japanese Navy holds war games that simulate war with Britian and the U.S. and seizure of Dutch East Indies, Singapore, Malaya, etc. What they find out is that they can't win a long-term conflict with the U.S. They knew this but prepared for war anyway...
One thing they did miss bombing was a lot of the oil storage at Pearl...
Steve
Cob
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Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 02:19 AM UTC
Usually, a shore bombardment is conducted prior to or in support of amphib ops. I don't believe the IJN planned on landing on Oahu. They just wanted to get our fleet out of the way. The IJN BBs came along to defend the fleet. Naval strategy of the day envisioned surface battles centered around the capitol ships. Ironically, partly because many of our BBs were destroyed or damaged at PH, the carrier became the capital ship of WWII.
Sabot
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Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 03:05 AM UTC
They did not want to risk the fleet. The US carriers were still at sea (although unknown) and the US submarine forces were still a wild card. Japan knew they could not win. They had just hoped to cripple the US long enough for them to solidify their postions along the Pacific rim. Again, just like the Germans, the Japanese did not comprehend the vastness of the United States and how much materiel the industries could produce. And these industries were virtually untouchable from any border.
As far as the Dutch East Indies, I am a direct descendant of the inhabitants of the former Dutch colonies (mother born in Java in 1940, father born in Sumatra in 1937, his parents were a Dutch botanist and a local Indonesian woman). The forces fought well and had some success flying the Brewster Buffalo, but ultimately had to withdraw, linking with Commonwealth forces. The non-Oriental population was put into camps, where my grandfather eventually starved to death. The women were used as "comfort women", female non-orientals were used in this capacity by the Japanese officers. I have an aunt who is the offspring of a Dutch mother and Japanese officer.
Incidently, the Japanese government has just sent my aunt war reparation money, my mother is set to get hers sometime later this year. Not much, less than $2000.
As far as the Dutch East Indies, I am a direct descendant of the inhabitants of the former Dutch colonies (mother born in Java in 1940, father born in Sumatra in 1937, his parents were a Dutch botanist and a local Indonesian woman). The forces fought well and had some success flying the Brewster Buffalo, but ultimately had to withdraw, linking with Commonwealth forces. The non-Oriental population was put into camps, where my grandfather eventually starved to death. The women were used as "comfort women", female non-orientals were used in this capacity by the Japanese officers. I have an aunt who is the offspring of a Dutch mother and Japanese officer.
Incidently, the Japanese government has just sent my aunt war reparation money, my mother is set to get hers sometime later this year. Not much, less than $2000.
CaptainJack
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Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 03:17 AM UTC
Sorry to hear that Rob,
While pecuniary remmittance can never undo such harm, surely a more reasonable view of reparations should have been considered.
Jack
While pecuniary remmittance can never undo such harm, surely a more reasonable view of reparations should have been considered.
Jack
210cav
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Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 03:58 AM UTC
Folks --- I brought up the follow-on bombardment of Oahu for several reasons. One the added negative psychological impact upon the United States. "They bombed us and shelled us, what can we do?" The Japanese could have intercepted the carriers at sea...wow! I believe in several of the thoughts expressed here and would add the reluctance of the Japanese lie also in the danger of dueling with the shore fortifications of Oahu. Fort de Russey next to Wakiki is still an impressive feature. I don't think they can still demolish it, so they turned into an impressive museum. The northern portion of Oahu lacked the fortification whereas the entrances to Pearl had several long range systems available. Food for thought.
DJ
DJ
Folgore
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Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 04:39 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I brought up the follow-on bombardment of Oahu for several reasons. One the added negative psychological impact upon the United States. "They bombed us and shelled us, what can we do?"
I'm not American, DJ, but I don't see you guys as going into utter despair after such an attack, particularly when the attack came before a declaration of war.
Quoted Text
The Japanese could have intercepted the carriers at sea...wow!
Possibly, yes, but the ocean is rather large. More importantly, the Japanese thought the carriers were in the harbour. Their bombers were supposed to take care of them.
I see things much the same as the others in this thread. The Japanese couldn't risk their fleet, and why should they if they were capable of destroying the US one with aircraft? Sniper and Cob are right. What use would a naval bombardment do if there were no follow up amphibious assault?
One thing I might add, is that having a naval force advance in conjunction with the aircraft would result in the Japanese losing the element of surprise, at least to the extent they had during the real attack.
Nic
210cav
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Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 06:06 AM UTC
Nic--you may recall that in early 1942, a Japanese sub surfaced off Santa Barbara, California and lobbed two or three shells in the direction of an oil refinerary. This precipitated the round-up and internment of Japanese on the West Coast. You might also recall that in 1945, the Japanese attempted to set forest in North West on fire via helium ballons. The US government never told anyone about it during the war for several valid reasons. First, they did not want to Japanese to realize their ballons actually made the trip. And, second, they wished to avoid civilian panic over the prospect of these ballons landing in the continental US. I'd also add that the military effectiveness of a shore bombardment on Oahu would have forced my Country to place aircraft and resources on the West Coast for fear the Japanese would bombard the US. Panic is an easy thing to create. Just cause everyone to say,"we have to protect (add whatever) first, before we go after the bad guys." Clausewitz described this vulnerable points as "centers of gravity." I think if they would have lobbed salvos into Oahu after the attack, there would have been a large diversion of forces to counter a potential vulnerable area. Look at our reaction to the invasion of the Aleutian Islands and the attack on Dutch Harbor. We built the ALCAN (with help from our friends to the North) and stationed a large number of troops in Alaska, build all sorts of coastal artillery positions, and airbases.....it does not necessarily have to have military effectiveness to do.
My 2 cents
DJ
My 2 cents
DJ
Cob
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Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 06:59 AM UTC
OK DJ I'm a little slow but I'm on the same page now. You're talking about psych ops. In that respect I think a follow up or simultaneous attack (Naval bombardment) of Oahu or better yet, San Diego/LA/San Francisco would have generated exactly the effect in the US you're talking about. Our resources would have been spent on preparing for and defending against an invasion of the west coast. Roosevelt would have been forced to focus on the Pacific vice Europe and .......???????
screamingeagle
Member Since: January 08, 2002
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Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 09:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
If so, why didn't the Japanese conduct a shore bombardments of targets either in Pearl or elsewhere? They certainly knew how to do it as evidenced by their actions in August of 1942 at Henderson Field during the Guadalcanal operation.
DJ
DJ ......so what are you leaving us to hang out to dry in the rubbble of Stalingrad ( LOL ).
That thread is still going strong, and my mind is really in a whirlwind from trying
to recall my readings on that battle #:-) So I'm going to make this short, I got
some modeling to do
.........Anyhow one thing guy's...........not only battleship row was hit, but other target's
as in regards to DJ's quote above were
- Hickam Field ( Army's Bomber Base ) ..... the planes at Kaneohe Naval Air Station
...Ford Island's Naval Air Station.....and Wheeler Field.
..... they were just as critical of a target on land, as was Battleship Row in the harbor
- ralph
Folgore
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Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 11:03 AM UTC
Ralph's right, of course, which still makes me think that bombarding Oahu with a fleet of battleships would be fairly useless. As far to your comments on the possibility of panic striking the US, we can never know what would have happened, but I find it doubtful. The Japanese could only reach the west coast (and only after crossing the largest ocean in the world). The US is a rather large country, and most of it would not be affected. The thought of a Japanese invasion of the American mainland, though you didn't suggest this, is ridiculous. That would be an impossible fight if ever there was one. Having to cross all the mountain ranges near the west coast. The British were hit harder by the Germans than the Japanese could ever have done, and they hung on.
Finally, I reiterate my comment that sending battleships to Oahu would result in the loss of the element of surprise. Surely, these massive ships would be spotted early enough to warn the Americans of an attack. The Japanese didn't even send their final wave of aircraft out because the surprise was over, they certainly wouldn't follow up with their naval fleet.
Nic
Finally, I reiterate my comment that sending battleships to Oahu would result in the loss of the element of surprise. Surely, these massive ships would be spotted early enough to warn the Americans of an attack. The Japanese didn't even send their final wave of aircraft out because the surprise was over, they certainly wouldn't follow up with their naval fleet.
Nic
210cav
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Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 07:26 PM UTC
Nic---as I recall the task force that supported the six carrier strike force included three battleships. I reiterate that the mere threat of military action causes a reaction. As I said earlier, we built the ALCAN Highway to push troops into Alaska, conducted anti-submarine operations off the West Coast, manned caostal artillery units all along the sea coast of America, and kept a sizeable force in the United States to repel even the htreat of action. While we can look with perfect 20/20 vision on the events of 1941, those who experienced it were no more secure than we were after the terrorist attacks oif September. And, look what we did and still do to respond to that "threat."
DJ
DJ
210cav
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Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 07:31 PM UTC
Quoted Text
OK DJ I'm a little slow but I'm on the same page now. You're talking about psych ops. In that respect I think a follow up or simultaneous attack (Naval bombardment) of Oahu or better yet, San Diego/LA/San Francisco would have generated exactly the effect in the US you're talking about. Our resources would have been spent on preparing for and defending against an invasion of the west coast. Roosevelt would have been forced to focus on the Pacific vice Europe and .......???????
COB---exactly my point. They could have made such a psychological impact on the United States that the government would have to divert assets to restore confidence. Some contributors feel that it physically impossible for the Japanese to "invade" the US. I agree. However, do not tell that the soldiers of the 1941 7th Infantry Division at Fort Ord, California. They practiced repelling the hated foe for many, many months after Pearl Harbor. It was done in a highly publicized manner to quell any fear that a potential invader could just prance ashore. The potential and effects of psyops are amazing.
DJ
screamingeagle
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Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 10:38 PM UTC
Hi Nic & DJ ! -------- man, I am loving every second of your post's..........
..............GREAT STUFF GENTLEMEN !
Isn't this great of how much possibility, speculation, " knowledge of other's " and fact's,
you could come up with from a good W.W.II question....Especially the "what if's ".
I have to agree with both of you, and let's not forget .........I don't think that
it was possible for any foreign Army in the world back then...........and even to THIS DAY,
to land their military in an amphibious assault on the shore's of America.
The Pacific Fleet was taken by surprise....and it was devastating & tragic - YES.
But that wasn't the entire U.S. Navy........nor the the U.S. Military for that fact !
Terror attacks today are a bit difficult to see coming........especially when undertaken
by cowardly act's of civilian suicide bombers & " public airline building crashing murderer's " !!!!!!!!!
.....but a full equipped "conventional/professional " foreign military force landing on our shore's in 1941 and even today .................IMPOSSIBLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
( I know someone is going to say "oh yea.......what about Alaska " ! - - - Well, I'm talking mainland America.)
You see how fast our military of hundreds of thousands.......turned into a Juggernaut of millions after Pearl Harbor. And the idustrial might of America was never in question.
The American public did everything they could possibly do to contribute and do their part
for the "war effort ".
How do you guy's feel about this ?
......Oh, and my post about the airfields ---- the jap's had to hit these first.
You can't go right into Battleship Row and start picking off ship's ........without taking out
the air defense's first ............which the IJN did, and was a critical part of their attack.
- ralph
..............GREAT STUFF GENTLEMEN !
Isn't this great of how much possibility, speculation, " knowledge of other's " and fact's,
you could come up with from a good W.W.II question....Especially the "what if's ".
I have to agree with both of you, and let's not forget .........I don't think that
it was possible for any foreign Army in the world back then...........and even to THIS DAY,
to land their military in an amphibious assault on the shore's of America.
The Pacific Fleet was taken by surprise....and it was devastating & tragic - YES.
But that wasn't the entire U.S. Navy........nor the the U.S. Military for that fact !
Terror attacks today are a bit difficult to see coming........especially when undertaken
by cowardly act's of civilian suicide bombers & " public airline building crashing murderer's " !!!!!!!!!
.....but a full equipped "conventional/professional " foreign military force landing on our shore's in 1941 and even today .................IMPOSSIBLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
( I know someone is going to say "oh yea.......what about Alaska " ! - - - Well, I'm talking mainland America.)
You see how fast our military of hundreds of thousands.......turned into a Juggernaut of millions after Pearl Harbor. And the idustrial might of America was never in question.
The American public did everything they could possibly do to contribute and do their part
for the "war effort ".
How do you guy's feel about this ?
......Oh, and my post about the airfields ---- the jap's had to hit these first.
You can't go right into Battleship Row and start picking off ship's ........without taking out
the air defense's first ............which the IJN did, and was a critical part of their attack.
- ralph
sniper
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Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 11:04 PM UTC
I really don't see what the Japanese would have gained by shelling Hawaii off the beaches.
Remember, they did use subs to strike at Pearl, you guys probably know the story of the one sunk by a destroyer while trying to enter the harbor and the new theory that one was in the harbor and launched torpedoes. But why risk capitol ships that would further put their carriers at risk? Thye had no idea where the rest of the American fleet was. That's why, as stated above, they actually cut short their air attack and high tailed it home.
If you want to ask a question, how about why didn't they try to invade Hawaii and occupy it. I mean if we want to talk 'what if' let's go for a biggie.
If you do a little research about what happened on Hawaii right after the attacks, you will hear some amazing stories. People thought there were Japanese all over the place, that there were paratroopers landing, the civilians went to hide out in caves...
If the Japanese wanted, they probably could have taken the island with 2 dozen tough guys!
Really though, they suprised the Americans, proved they were as good as any other military force and hurt American power in the Pacific. Now in reality we all now know that what they actually did was to engage themselves in a war that they were going to lose and that was unnecessary. By destroying a bunch of battleships that were way past their prime anyway, they brought down on themselves the full pressure of American might. Economic and social.
Hey, someone mentioned ballon bombs. Here's a neat fact. When they detonated the first atomic bomb in New Mexico do you know what cover story they used to explain the giant explosion and flash? Civilains were told that Japanese saboteurs had blown up an ammunition dump!
Steve
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 12:32 AM UTC
Steve--I did not intend for my question about the shore bombardment of Oahu to imply a land invasion was feasible or even contemplated by the Japanese. They want to secure a perimeter around China and ensure the flow of supplies from South West Asia (oil, rubber, rice, etc). Knocking out the offensive arm of the US fleet, they assumed, would provide them the six month window they needed to conquer territory and negotiate a settlement with the US. Having said that my point in injecting the comments on the Japanese ballons and battleship shelling was to spark discussion on the psychological effects they could and did cause. As you mention, the thought of an enemy soldier behind every tree caused us to divert resources and manpower. This is exactly what someone employing psyops wants you to do. In our case, the law of unintended consequences ruled rather than a well-thought out deception plan by the Japanese. If anyone wants to see deception at work, I would recommend that they consult the works on Operation Fortitude. You also mention the use of submarines. Most writers I reviewed conclude that none of them made it into the Harbor. There is one photo I saw that appears to be torpedo tracks, but I find that a remote possibility.
DJ
DJ
Folgore
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 01:09 AM UTC
DJ--I agree that the US government reacted to the Japanese threat by directeing some resources to the home front. I don't think this proves any psychological victory on behalf of the Japanese, however. At war time, and especially in a World War, the homeland must be prepared for anything. The Americans left the lights on in their cities on the east coast and, as a result, the German U-boats had a field day on their shipping. Perhaps they should have diverted more resources there. What major nation in World War II did not have a large defense force remaining at home? Furthermore, the US, as has already been said by a couple people in this thread, had such large amounts of manpower and materiel that they could afford leaving these men in the States. As I have already said, the British suffered a lot worse from the German blitz and V-1s and V-2s than the Americans could ever have from the Japanese balloon bombs. Steve's little tidbit on the governement telling the people the test of the nuclear bomb in New Mexico was actually Japanese saboteurs suggests that the government wasn't even that worried about their people going into mass hysteria. Even if the government did react to prevent this hysteria (as you have suggested DJ), it could be described as better being safe than sorry. There probably wasn't a great threat of panic spreading across the US and turning all Americans into cowards calling for an end to the war. All those reactions by your government you mentioned a couple posts above seem like sound strategical decisions to me. Finally, since all this was done without the Japanese having used their battleships against Pearl Harbour (this was the original question, after all), what more would they have accomplished by using them? The risks to the Japanese, in this case, outweigh the rewards.
Nic
Nic
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 01:17 AM UTC
Nic--Interesting response.
Thanks
DJ
Thanks
DJ
sniper
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 01:23 AM UTC
Quoted Text
...
The Americans left the lights on in their cities on the east coast and, as a result, the German U-boats had a field day on their shipping....
Nic
Nic, my Mom tells a funny story about how there used to be air raid drills in the little town she lived in hundreds of miles inland in Western New York State.
Now, of course there was no way the Germans or Japanese were going to bomb, but doing things like that were probably more to get people thinking as one and involved in the war effort.
Your right about the U-boats following the lights along the coast. There are some great books about this. People used to go to the beach and actually watch ships torpedoed and burn...
Steve
Folgore
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 01:27 AM UTC
Steve--Even here, in the middle of the Canadian prairies, we had an air raid siren. They finally dismantled it a few years ago. I think they had drills too, but I don't know why anyone would want to bomb my town.........Maybe the same reason you suggested.
Nic
Nic
sniper
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 01:43 AM UTC
Quoted Text
...
Having said that my point in injecting the comments on the Japanese ballons and battleship shelling was to spark discussion on the psychological effects they could and did cause. As you mention, the thought of an enemy soldier behind every tree caused us to divert resources and manpower. This is exactly what someone employing psyops wants you to do.
...
DJ
DJ, I don't think the balloon bombs really freightened anyone. Not sure if they were even reported. They were intended to start wildfires I think. They did kill that guy and a few kids. Wasn't he a preacher or something?
Actually, I think what you are talking about, trying to scare the civilians in the U.S., shows just how little the Japanese actually understood Western culture. Think of "Tokyo Rose." Everyone who heard it thought it was stupid BS! If you read some of the Japanese proaganda, it's funny. They talk about Babe Ruth in some cases because they thought he was still playing ball in the 40's!
I'm sure U.S. propaganda aimed at the Japanese might have been funny to them too. (Probably not when we dropped leaflets before we would firebomb though...)
But, the bombing of Pearl Harbor was enough to scare anyone. They didn't need a follow-up. I mean, imagine what they were able to do on December 7. No one thought it possible. It's understandable why some people panicked!
Sure, we did build up some coastal defenses but I don't think this really divirted any real manpower or resources. I bet it was done in part to calm people and also to help make sure they remembered the U.S. was at war and they should work hard at the factory and save gas whenever possible.
But, if the Japanese really needed to starty a war with the U.S., why not invade Hawaii? Sure it sounds ambitious, but it would have really changed the way things went. I don't think this idea is any dumber than starting a war in the first place.. They knew there was no way they could sustain a prolonged war. Even if they thought they could reach an agreement after they had what they wanted in the South Pacific, they must have had to plan for the alternative...
Steve
GunTruck
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 01:44 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Steve--Even here, in the middle of the Canadian prairies, we had an air raid siren. They finally dismantled it a few years ago. I think they had drills too, but I don't know why anyone would want to bomb my town.........Maybe the same reason you suggested.
Nic
Those beautiful Canadian prairies are inviting targets to an evil enemy who wants to deny you the land you're blessed with...
Gunnie
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 01:54 AM UTC
Steve--amazing. I vividly recall my Dad telling us that he saw ships torpedoed off Far Rockway just on the tip of New York Harbor. Told us they hit an oil tanker which fouled the beaches for sometime with floatsam and oil. Believe me, Grandma was very concerned that any minute the hated Germans would land and it would be all over.
DJ
DJ
sniper
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 02:15 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Steve--amazing. I vividly recall my Dad telling us that he saw ships torpedoed off Far Rockway just on the tip of New York Harbor. Told us they hit an oil tanker which fouled the beaches for sometime with floatsam and oil. Believe me, Grandma was very concerned that any minute the hated Germans would land and it would be all over.
DJ
Right! There's a decent book by Homer Hickman called 'Torpedo Alley' about the U-boat war off the coast. You can still go and see some of the coastal batteries the U.S. built. I guess we had our own version of the Atlantik Wall!
Just as interesting are the U-boats that operated in the Carribbean.
You guys probably know about the German spies that were dropped off from a U-boat. They came with explosives to blow some stuff up. Really facsinating and is mentioned in the above book.
So maybe Grandma's concern was't totally misguided....
Steve
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