Steve--once again, it is easy for us to dismiss as totally unrealistic threats to the United States after the attack on Pearl Harbor, but for those present it was quite a different thing. You mention the coastal artillery emplacements. Those babies still stand along the Delaware coast (among many other places). You can not get rid of them they are so solidly constructed. If someone really believed the enemy could not attack the United States why did we construct them between 1941 and '45? I think we can relate this portion of the disussion to the terrorist attack on New York and DC. Did anyone actually believe the World Trade Center would fall down? I lived in NYC all my growing years and it certainly stood as a symbol of invincibility in my mind. So, if tomorrow our Government pushes forward with a National Missile Defense, will my grandchildren say "totally ridiculous, no one would attack the United States"?
My 2 cents for the afternoon.
DJ

Man I was thinking about freezing my butt off in Russia and tnow we're on the balmy shores of Oahu!!!

Obviously 210CAV has too much spare time at Ft. Knox.

Why did the Japanese not bombard Hawaii: couple possibilities already discussed:
- Too much risk for half their carrier force
- Nothing to be gained

Another item not discussed was that they could not execute their plan of seizing Hong Kong, Singapore, Phillipines, US Mandates (Guam, etc) and Dutch East Indies AND have their Striking Force spend several more days dallying around Hawaii. In college I used to play a lot of battle simulations (we called them wargames) and a favorite was USN which covered the Pacific War from late November 41 (when Striking Force leaves the Kuriles) to mid 1943. The Japanese player had to husband his naval and air forces on a very tight schedule if he was to succeed with his plans to conquer Southwest Paciifc. Turns in the game were weekly and to shell Hawaii would cost one or two turns, seriously affecting time table. Now there were guys who played Japan who actually conducted the "surprise" air raid (US player could only sit and watch, although he could get planes in air and ships in Pearl could shoot back) and followed up immediately with invasion of Hawaii, easily capturing it. It generally only delayed the final US victory by 6 months at most. Since the carriers survived, US player still had striking force and US subs would isolate Hawaii and Japanese could not defend both Hawaii and continue conquest in Southwest Pacific.

The air attack was used to keep US Pacific Fleet from inteferring with initial conquest, that was all. I believe Admiral Yamamoto understood Americans enough to know that a shore bombardment would only piss them off even more

210CAV - Its interesting that you mentioned the fortifications at Fort DeRussy. Last month my Dad and I visited Fort Morgan on Mobile Bay, and you see the 1900-era fortifications thrown on top of the old 1820-30 defences the Confederates occupied in 1864. They were all quite impressive, except that carrier-borne airpower rendered the "disappearing guns" and Panama mounts (French-made 155mm guns mounted on a base in open mounts) obsolete. The defences were made to counter flat trajectory naval gunfire, but were defensless against air-delivered bombs.

Ranger---I once again believe you hit on a very relevant point in the mosaic that is the attack on Pearl Harbor. Nagomo as commander of the Japanese attack force wished to hit the American hard and fast and get the heck out of there. When Genda and Fushida the brains and brawn of the attack urged him to follow-up their initial assault he refused and withdrew to the north. My point is that we tend to overlook the tremendous risk (dare I venture gamble) the Japanese took in attacking Pearl. The wargames they completed prior to the attack usuallly resulted in several of their carrier sunk by the Americans. It would take us until the May 1942 Battle of the Coral Sea to sink even a small carrier and June of 1942 at the Battle of Midway to sink four of the six carriers that attacked Pearl Harbor. So, Nagomo was rightly cautious in his approach to battle. Bold, decisive leaders are difficult to cultivate in a closed society.
DJ

DJ, I'm not rying to argue that there was no threat to the continental U.S., but I don't think fear of a Japanese or German invasion really kept Roosevelt awake at nights.

Yes, I've seen the coastal defenses on the East Coast and on the West Coast too where they used 16 inch guns. Impressive. But, I really don't think in a country as large as the U.S. it was a tremendous effort to construct these barriers. They were spread out and nothing to the scale of the Atlantik Wall.

As I mentioned, I think they were there as much for us as they were there for the enemy. Sure, maybe the Japanese could drive a few ships up to the California coast and shell, but I don't think this would have been devestating. Their subs did operate off the coast.

I really think it was a way to make people feel 'safe' after the events at Pearl. "Hey, we're doing something!" (Kind of like making people take off their shoes before they get on an airplane today...)

As far as relating this to 9/11, I don't know. As horrible as the Japanese attacks were, they were aimed at a military target with a clear, albeit flawed, goal in mind. The Japanese did not go out of their way to kill women and children and bomb hospitals. They wanted to cripple a fleet of warships.

No, I certainly wasn't expecting the attack on the Towers and probably couldn't dream that one up. To be honest, I had always expected someone to nuke a city. I mean, that's the threat I grew up with. But, if tomorrow someone blows up the Hoover dam we'll be saying, "gee, I never would have thought that thing would bust..."

Sure a missle defence is a great thing but in a way 9/11 proves the flaws in such a system. Put a nuke on a charter flight and then push the button over NY or Miami or D.C. Not much you can do with a missle defence system in that case.

Remember, the military is always planning for the LAST war. That's not as bad as it seems. You can't prepare for an invasion of aliens from Pluto even though they may be landing next week. It just doesn't work that way. You will never ba able to guess what a madman may be plotting.

I think your original question was about shelling the beaches of Hawaii. Sure, it probably could have been done but why bother? I don't think the Japanese were interested in killing civilians and don't think they would have risked losing the element of suprise or a capitol ship to do so. Remember, the attack was launched a couple hundred miles offshore, it would have taken quite a while (over 10 hours?) to get close enough to shell. Either they would have to have sent a battleship ahead of the fleet (stupid, it would have been detected and ruined the element of suprise) or sent a ship when the planes were launched (by then the attack would have been long over and the American carriers were already trying to chase after them). If they really want to do something, send an invasion force with the fleet at capture Hawaii.

Steve

Steve--I vote that we have beaten this horse to death. Dream up a topic so we can switch gears.
DJ

Got one about Iwo Jima right below this one. What have you been waiting for!!!! Need your input!

Steve