I am fairly new to the Armorama community, and few know me yet, but as a military freak and freelance writer, I will post a different quote from one of the greatest men of all history,Gen. George S. Patton Jr. daily... I hope to enlighten those that have not studied the man with these posts. Model on, troops!!

Gunny

Discipline, which is but mutual trust and confidence, is the key to all success in peace and war.
General George S. Patton Jr.

Hmmm...

This would be the Patton that slapped a patient in a military hospital, left Nazi party officials in power in Bavaria and advocated attacking the USSR. Rather overated as a General in my opinion, like Rommel and Monty, but his willingness to attack the USSR in 1945 seems a little worrying...

After the second incident with a shellshocked soldier in a hospital, Eisenhower said to one of his senior officers 'If this thing ever gets out, they'll be howling for Patton's scalp, and that will be the end of George's service in this war.'

My favourite Patton quote is the one made to a German soldier who was the sign writer at his HQ, it went...

"We got no bug with the Germans, the Russians are our real enemy..."

or...

"This Nazi thing. It's just like a Democratic-Republican election fight."

Still he was alot better than most of the Generals, look at Fredenhall who he replaced after Kasserine!

couldnt agree more,

history has been rather kind on a man who's crackpot ideas and actions could have seen him either wage war against russia or sectioned!

cheers

joe

You guys opened a can of worms. I will referee.
DJ

Who little old me???

Can we bribe the referee?

I just checked back to see any other comments from my morning post...That's what's great about a free world...I appreciate both positive and negative comments, actually welcome them...Didn't mean to open a can of worms, but that's what a forum discussion is all about...Keep the cards and letters coming!

Gunny

dont worry you will only find reasonable, balanced discussion here in the history club!

if not DJ will sort them out

cheers

joe

As for an excellent US general of WW2, my vote goes to Bradley. But I have a soft spot for James Gavin and Costa, last of the fighting Generals!

The best quote from Gavin...

"If you wanna see if a guy will fight... See if he will jump out of a plane..."

I think the problem with Patton is that the publicity machine overinflated him in much the same way as Monty and Rommel. He was an excellent divisional commander, as was Rommel, but only a good general at army level. I do think he was good, but there were better... Hope that makes some kinda sense! But as I said before there was a lot worse! Look at Percival at Singapore for example!

Gunny,

How do you rate Bradley compared to Patton? Or to Monty or Rommel for that matter?

Joe-- I always find it of value to set the standards for how we view an historic figure. For example, Rommel is a knowledgeable, caring leader. He demonstrates these traits on numerous battlefields. However, he is a "wild and crazy" sort of guy. He wins battles but never the campaign. He gives the allies a run for their money in North Africa, but they adjust and overcome him in the end. By way of comparison, Patton is a knowledgeable and caring leader . The unfortunate incidents in Sicily do not show this side of him, but he was a very sensitive and intelligent man. In contrast to Rommel, he does win the big ones-- arguably, in the post Kasserine Pass days, the invasion of Siciliy and the subsequent drive across Europe. A knowledgeable battlefield commander is not necessarily wise in other areas of society. Placing Patton in command of a Bavaria after the war was logical. He failed there and was removed. The connection between his war and post war actions detracts from my opinion of him on the battlefield. However, I still consider him better (by a wide margin) than Bradley. So, as we expand this discussion, I would recommend that you briefly state you points building to your conclusion. In my book, Patton is a man of faults, but a great battlefield commander. What do you think?
DJ

No doubt Patton had a lot of faults. He treated his soldiers like peasants and he didn't know when to shut his mouth. But he also believed that the best way to win the war was to keep moving towards Berlin. He predicted Middletons Corps would get into trouble because they were sitting still, not sending out patrols to their front etc.. And sure enough when the Battle of the Bulge began it was Middleton's divisions that were hit hard. Patton's instinct was to go on the attack. Montgomerey wanted to fall back and regroup for three months or so before beginning an offensive. Not sure if that was the best way to deal with the German attack.
George Patton wouldn't last five minutes in todays military but I'm sure glad he was in Europe in 1944.

Just my 2 cents,
Cob

Red Baron:
In response to your question on a comparison of Bradley to Patton, I can honestly tell you that I feel that all of the great ones of WWll, whether Axis or Allies, have their own individual magnificence as well as downfalls. I come from a long line of military signifigance, and I am proud to say that my grandfather fought beside Patton at Bastogne and all the way to Berlin. General Bradley was also a great leader and General (as well as Monty), and I have studied Rommels' life and his battle tactics and I have a great respect for him also. These men fought for their countries and their leaders in different ways, but all of them had one thing in common...Patriotism.
Gunny

Gunny.

Well said.

Interested to hear about your grandfathers service. Both my Grandfathers served in the same British regiment in the war although at different times. My paternal grandfather was in the BEF and was evacuated at Dunkirk. He went on to serve in Italy and fought at Monte Cassino. The wounds he picked up never fully healed and he was paralysed after the war. Bizarrely he became very pro-German after the war as his family was German. He was a bit odd.

My maternal Grandfather made a small fortune selling doughnuts to GIs in London before he got called up at the end of 1944. He managed to spend the rest of the war trying to catch up with the frontline but managed to win several fights at the 1946 Berlin Boxing competition... According to him he was undisputed bantam weight champion of Berlin...

Well that was way off topic... Sorry guys!

DJ,

good run down there,

Patton in my view, was excellent at getting the job done. his methods may have been questionable at times, but in terms of getting what he wanted from his troops he was almost without equal. in this way he was much like Rommel.

although in my view they show how really rather mad he was, his views and postwar actions should not detract from his many achievements and victories during WW2.

but to call him one of 'the greatest men in history' is IMHO a huge overstatement.

just my thoughts,

and before anyone jumps on this, im no fan of rommel or monty either

cheers

joe

I would be interested in expanding the discussion on Bradley, who I believe is too conservative and slow . I read two books that I can call to mind on him. One is his autobiography and the other is the Clay Blair book. They offer interesting insights. Most notable recollection is that Bradley , in Blair's book, expresses a deep dislike for Patton and his tactical methods. At any rate, why is Bradley thought so highly of...
DJ

Well Bradley did sell himself well after the war as 'the Soldiers General' ... Perhaps another case of over exposure?

Im afraid I know very little on Bradley other than his exploits in Normandy. I am more of a German/British/Soviet kinda guy... My interest in the US Army is at a more ground roots level. Namely the riflemans exploits of the war.

As for Rommel, I find it interesting that he is seen as this military legend who has risen above the stigma of having been a general for the Third Reich and is seen as a 'good german' when compared to others. I dont think his abilities are that good to be honest. He was an excellent divisional commander but seems to me to have been out of his league with an army. He was too willing to get stuck in and be at the front. Courageous yes, but daft for an army commander. Also he seems to be seen as less of a 'Nazi' than other commanders. Is this due to his alledged role in the July Plot? Rommel was very keen on Hitler till the war turned against Germany, indeed he was the commander of Hitlers Bodyguard during the Polish campaign...

I always prefer Manstien or Guderian or even Barenfanger over Rommel...

DJ,

Can you recommend a good book on Bradley? I would be interested to read up more on the subject of his leadership.

sorry DJ, my knowledge of US generals is limited to Patton only, i cant comment, but would be keen to learn more!

cheers

joe

DJ:
I have read a few good books about Bradley, but unfortunately Titles and Authors are gone from my mind(it's been a few years!), but for a great synapse about the man check out this website; www.virtuology.com, in the WWll archives, type in Omar Nelson Bradley, I think you may enjoy some of the info...

Gunny

Mark-- thanks for the information. He certainly was a person who pulled himself up by his own boot straps. Apparently, he was a great tactical trainer as evidenced by his command of the 82nd Infantry Division and then the 26th Infantry Division. He does well with II Corps in North Africa and Sicily . However, his command of the First Army in preparing for Normandy is shaky. He surpresses the objections of Gerow the V Corps commander and the 1st Infantry Divison CG when they object to the use of DD tanks and landing teams. I always thought that he should have taken they criticism to heart and investigated their objections. Instead, he blew them off with a bow towards allied unity. His performance in the hedgerow country does not inspire confidence.
DJ

And more's the pity...

Dare I venture that in today's military, we have a great deal more talented and well educated people than Patton.

Lets continue the adventure, DJ...

How about some discussion of our present and and newly retired Generals?...Franks, Powell, Schwartzcoff?...

Let's Roll,
Gunny

Mark-- there is a wealth of talent in the crop of retired generals and admirals who now populate the retired ranks. Powell is certainly one of my heroes....articulate, intelligent, level headed. Franks is a quiet efficient guy. Stormin Norman was something else! Without a doubt he is super brilliant, demanding, exacting and a nice guy when things fall into place. It is when they are a hair out of line that all hell breaks loose. Any one else want to chime in here?
DJ

I would be interested in the title of that book. As far as I have read Germany had very little uranium for a bomb and was never near to building an atomic weapon. Operations such as those in Norway helped curtail such things.

I would be interested to read the book and see the authors sources if it has been so secret for so long....

But with these Soviet/East German archives who knows! I am sure there is still more secrets to come out from the war. Britain still has masses of documents that cannot be released to the public archives till after 100 years and some that will never be releashed.

Sorry for that off topic posting, but I know little about US Generals apart from Patton and even less about the modern ones...

The last two post are interesting. While many of us read a variety of works on Patton, I venture to say that our interest is more the result of the movie Patton than anything else. Is it George C Scott or Patton that we see and hear? I attend a lot of WW II veteran gatherings as part of my research work and seldom hear any other American general mentioned as a leader in WW II. Amazing.