_GOTOBOTTOM
 Community Forum: Filipino Modelers Phorum
Want to meet up with modelers in your country or region? This is the place.
How Pathetic Are We?
mondo
Visit this Community
Mindanao, Philippines
Member Since: July 04, 2003
entire network: 1,036 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 08:58 PM UTC
The following article is ripped from Manila Bulletin. Imagine Thailand donating to us! 10 years back we were in the same page. No they are "donating"! Where'd that AFP modernization cash go? Or did we ever have it?

8 AIRCRAFT BACK IN SERVICE


By LOUIE PEREZ & ANJO PEREZ


VILLAMOR AIR FORCE BASE, Pasay City – The Philippine Air Force (PAF) re-commissioned eight aircraft yesterday, including four OV-10C Broncos donated by the Thai government.


PAF chief Lt. Gen. Nestor Santillan led the simple ceremonies at the airbase yesterday with Defense Secretary Eduardo Ermita and Thai Ambassador to the Philippines Busba Bunag.

Two Huey UH-1H helicopters, a Marchetti SF260 trainer plane, and a Nomad N-22 reconnaissance were placed back into service yesterday after undergoing recovery work under the Aircraft Recovery Program.

Santillan initiated the aircraft recovery program after taking over the command at the PAF 20 months ago. He retires this Friday.

The program involves the refurbishment of inoperable aircraft of the PAF. To date, 32 aircraft have been recovered and placed back into operation.

The Huey choppers will be used to augment the PAF’s search and rescue capabilities and Armed Forces’ air-to-ground support missions.

The Marchetti, initially a training aircraft, has been fitted with a sub-machinegun and was redesigned to carry bombs and rockets to perform as an attack aircraft.

The Nomad is a highwing, twin-engine aircraft used for light missions such as VIP transport, medical evacuations and reconnaissance.

The four OV-10C Broncos, aside from being a purely military aircraft, will also be utilized for civil action. According to the PAF chief, the Broncos are used for rain-making operations, aerial reconnaissance and mapping, geological survey, chemical spraying, disaster relief operations and maritime patrol, among others.

This Friday, the Air Force will announce the replacement of Santillan. However, it is believed that an acting commander will be appointed on Friday as Commission on Elections rules prohibit the President from appointing a permanent one within the election period.

Included in the list of potential replacement for Santillan are Maj. Gen. Jose L. Reyes and Maj. Gen. Edwin N. Galzote.

...... and more!!! Do you know that Bangladesh has got better Military hardware than we do? But imagine the illiteracy rate there? Man they even gave Pakistan a run for their money.
shonen_red
Visit this Community
Metro Manila, Philippines
Member Since: February 20, 2003
entire network: 5,762 Posts
KitMaker Network: 2,610 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 11:08 PM UTC
Could you just imagine it!! Egypt has an Abrams and what do we have?
cardinal
Visit this Community
Visayas, Philippines
Member Since: October 05, 2003
entire network: 1,008 Posts
KitMaker Network: 492 Posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 01:30 AM UTC
.....politics?
shonen_red
Visit this Community
Metro Manila, Philippines
Member Since: February 20, 2003
entire network: 5,762 Posts
KitMaker Network: 2,610 Posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 01:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text

.....politics?



Piece of crap!! I hate politics!!! Even during our politics class, I don't like it. Good thing is, our prof was a young chinita so I get a grade of 2.5 (4.0 to be the highest) Yebba!!!
cbrain21
Visit this Community
Metro Manila, Philippines
Member Since: February 16, 2004
entire network: 151 Posts
KitMaker Network: 141 Posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 01:38 AM UTC
I remember politicians and a lotta Filipinos in the early 90s celebrating and being proud of them(freakin')selves to have driven away the Americans and their military bases.

Now look at the best of what we have for our friggin' country's defense.... scrap metal.

I say burn all 'em politicians to hell!
cardinal
Visit this Community
Visayas, Philippines
Member Since: October 05, 2003
entire network: 1,008 Posts
KitMaker Network: 492 Posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 02:06 AM UTC
Well it seems that most of our politicians are really proud to be Filipinos, in fact they are so proud that one of the former presidents was in the forefront of the movement that sent the Americans packing. I hope that the next administration (really crossing my fingers) would be as observant & educated to learn from the past mistakes & not repeat them. IMHO.
shonen_red
Visit this Community
Metro Manila, Philippines
Member Since: February 20, 2003
entire network: 5,762 Posts
KitMaker Network: 2,610 Posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 02:20 AM UTC
Don't tell me after 40 years, we'll still be using that crap! Hello! The US have now the F-22 and the latest, the F-35 and so for the Russians' SU-35 and Mig-1.4. How that hell will you compete with a Bronco?? :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
cardinal
Visit this Community
Visayas, Philippines
Member Since: October 05, 2003
entire network: 1,008 Posts
KitMaker Network: 492 Posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 02:39 AM UTC
The point is not about competing with them. They're superpowers, remember? The issue is national security. Remember the time when the US bases were around? Were there any nation building forward bases in the Spratlys during that time? I don't think so. After the big cat was gone all the mouse went out, played, & build their nests. Now there is the internal threat from communist insurgents, Muslim rebels & bandits that the Philippine military couldn't even contain much less a foreign incursion into our own country's area of responsibility. It's about time that the AFP upgrades its components. Security issues are also a big concern why the country's economy does not prosper.
shonen_red
Visit this Community
Metro Manila, Philippines
Member Since: February 20, 2003
entire network: 5,762 Posts
KitMaker Network: 2,610 Posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 02:45 AM UTC
Yep... it's about national security. But don't you think the black market can have these such weapons? The F-14s and F-18s can be good replacements for our aging weapons. BTW, the LAV-300 and the Corvette (both used by the Marines) are the latest upgrade yet we have received. It is still been used and state of the art IMO. What we need now are carriers and crafts. I believe the US will be scraping out it's aged Enterprise (CV-??). If we can ask them, we can have that. It's still a powerful carrier, fresh from the Vietnam confict.
flex_cs
Visit this Community
Metro Manila, Philippines
Member Since: December 03, 2003
entire network: 151 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 02:46 AM UTC
guys i think ive read it in the Philippine Star about Pres. GMA bragging about those aircraft that weve received from the US were the fruits of her visit and our alliance with the US fight against terror....talk about crap!! those are all junk!!

if the US would really want to help us they would be giving us F-16s just like during the days of the cold war wherein i think most european countries had a MAP (military assistance program) where they receive their equipment for free but mind you they were receiving F-104s and F-5s and they were brand new not hand me downs.....the Americans are toying with us!!

Nobody can help us except ourselves
shonen_red
Visit this Community
Metro Manila, Philippines
Member Since: February 20, 2003
entire network: 5,762 Posts
KitMaker Network: 2,610 Posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 02:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Nobody can help us except ourselves



Therefore, let's make our own defense systems! Using the latest laser weaponry and laser aiming modules. The units will be using surgical lasers to defeat the opposition! Hahahaha.... (kaka C & C Generals Zero Hour)
cardinal
Visit this Community
Visayas, Philippines
Member Since: October 05, 2003
entire network: 1,008 Posts
KitMaker Network: 492 Posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 03:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text

guys i think ive read it in the Philippine Star about Pres. GMA bragging about those aircraft that weve received from the US were the fruits of her visit and our alliance with the US fight against terror....talk about crap!! those are all junk!!

if the US would really want to help us they would be giving us F-16s just like during the days of the cold war wherein i think most european countries had a MAP (military assistance program) where they receive their equipment for free but mind you they were receiving F-104s and F-5s and they were brand new not hand me downs.....the Americans are toying with us!!

Nobody can help us except ourselves



That is exactly what the Military Assistance Program is about, junk. Maybe if the American bases were retained we could lay our hands into this new hardwares. Imagine, those South American nations like Honduras or Mexico having Black Hawk helicopters while we have Hueys. If the Americans could afford to put F-16's/14's, AV-8's, Cobra's, among others in museums they could also afford to give it as assistance to county's like the Philippines. But as to why they don't, I don't know. I'm no expert to this things & am talking only of up to where my knowledge takes me but I think the big factor, for me, to recon with in this issue is still POLITICS.
flex_cs
Visit this Community
Metro Manila, Philippines
Member Since: December 03, 2003
entire network: 151 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 03:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Therefore, let's make our own defense systems! Using the latest laser weaponry and laser aiming modules. The units will be using surgical lasers to defeat the opposition! Hahahaha.... (kaka C & C Generals Zero Hour)


ok ba un zero hour?? i didnt buy it coz nacorny han ako sa original version.

oh btw sa previous post mo SR me Corvette ba tyo? if so anong klase un who made it? un ba un mga Peacock class vessels or entirely different un??
flex_cs
Visit this Community
Metro Manila, Philippines
Member Since: December 03, 2003
entire network: 151 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 03:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

That is exactly what the Military Assistance Program is about, junk. Maybe if the American bases were retained we could lay our hands into this new hardwares. Imagine, those South American nations like Honduras or Mexico having Black Hawk helicopters while we have Hueys. If the Americans could afford to put F-16's/14's, AV-8's, Cobra's, among others in museums they could also afford to give it as assistance to county's like the Philippines. But as to why they don't, I don't know. I'm no expert to this things & am talking only of up to where my knowledge takes me but I think the big factor, for me, to recon with in this issue is still POLITICS.



i have a theory of why the americans are here training with our troops bec they want to learn jungle and guerilla warfare from our troops oz weve been fighting these insurgents for a long time....and for the reason why the americans cant give us good hardware is BECAUSE THEY"RE AFRAID WE'LL KICK THEIR ASS ONCE WE GET SUPERIOR WEAPONRY!! put bold text here :-) :-)
cardinal
Visit this Community
Visayas, Philippines
Member Since: October 05, 2003
entire network: 1,008 Posts
KitMaker Network: 492 Posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 03:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text


i have a theory of why the americans are here training with our troops bec they want to learn jungle and guerilla warfare from our troops oz weve been fighting these insurgents for a long time....and for the reason why the americans cant give us good hardware is BECAUSE THEY"RE AFRAID WE'LL KICK THEIR ASS ONCE WE GET SUPERIOR WEAPONRY!! put bold text here :-) :-)



They're training in the Philippines because they want to maintain open relations in terms of the temporary basing of US troops in the country (I don't know the exact term for this agreement). The Philippines is a strategic place for the Americans up until today in that it could serve as a staging point for their operations in SE Asia & in the Middle East & especially during the Cold War years when they have to safeguard the Strait of Malacca from the threat of the Soviet Navy. The Strait of Malacca have it's strategic importance in terms of the it being the gateway to the Indian Ocean & the ME. With regards to jungle training, well maybe but not as much. They have lots of jungles to train in like in Panama & Honduras in Central America where the climate & the jungle terrain is just like the ones in the Philippines. Maybe more on the guerilla fighting techniques which I think they should learn more from the British.
jeremy47
Visit this Community
Luzon, Philippines
Member Since: March 14, 2004
entire network: 50 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 04:21 AM UTC
haayyy how sad.....

every night i dreamt about PAF having aerial battlehips armed with rail guns... and i was a marine...... with kick ass combat armor .... how i wish sna andun tlga ako!!! wahahaha
cbrain21
Visit this Community
Metro Manila, Philippines
Member Since: February 16, 2004
entire network: 151 Posts
KitMaker Network: 141 Posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 01:03 PM UTC

Quoted Text

guys i think ive read it in the Philippine Star about Pres. GMA bragging about those aircraft that weve received from the US were the fruits of her visit and our alliance with the US fight against terror....talk about crap!! those are all junk!!

if the US would really want to help us they would be giving us F-16s just like during the days of the cold war wherein i think most european countries had a MAP (military assistance program) where they receive their equipment for free but mind you they were receiving F-104s and F-5s and they were brand new not hand me downs.....the Americans are toying with us!!

Nobody can help us except ourselves



If the US would give us F-16s do you believe that our dirt poor government (due to its filthy rich corrupt politicians) be able to support and sustain the operation of these fighters? Uniforms nga lang ng ating Marines e hindi na masustentuhan e.... baka one week lang operation nito e i-scrap na yung ibang units to keep the others airborne.

The US gives us junk to fly because it is only what we can afford to operate. Sad but true.
GIBeregovoy
Visit this Community
Metro Manila, Philippines
Member Since: May 31, 2002
entire network: 1,612 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,129 Posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 02:46 PM UTC
We can't afford good miltiary equipment because it costs a lot. We should be grateful with the hand-me-downs so far. Currently, the economy isn't performing well, so it doesn't make sense to purchase in cut-throat prices F-14s and F-16s when the government is having a hard time making jobs and putting food on people's tables.

The reason the US doesn't want to sell "kick ass" weaponry is because 1) we can't afford it (see above), and 2) security reasons. The Abrams they sold to Kuwait, Egypt and SA don't have Chobham and are bare-bones tanks so that the secrets of the Abrams aren't discovered. The -16s they sold to the UAE are the most advanced in the world because the UAE can afford it.

Furthermore, even assuming we can purchase the equipment, one has to remember about maintenance. A fleet of F-14Ds won't be of use when all are in the hangar waiting for spare parts.

Point I'm trying to make here is that we shouldn't blame the USA nor the government because of the reality of the situation. Yes, politics is a major problem in the acquisition of modern weaponry, but even if that's gone, I'd still see a lot of money poured into infrastructure upgrades. Before during the Ramos admin, we could've had better equipment, but politics came in as well as the Asian Financial Crisis. Times are different now.

The best our government can do right now is play the game diplomatically, with the US as our big stick (hopefully). This means a damn good foreign affairs team and a headstrong president. Hopefully, when the economy picks up, we'll be able to afford the new kit in, say, 10, 20 years.
shonen_red
Visit this Community
Metro Manila, Philippines
Member Since: February 20, 2003
entire network: 5,762 Posts
KitMaker Network: 2,610 Posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 06:29 PM UTC

Quoted Text


ok ba un zero hour?? i didnt buy it coz nacorny han ako sa original version.



Ok naman. Wala na kasi akong magawa dito kaya nilaro ko ulit.


Quoted Text

oh btw sa previous post mo SR me Corvette ba tyo? if so anong klase un who made it? un ba un mga Peacock class vessels or entirely different un??



Hmmm.... I remember nung ROTC trip namin sa Naval base sa Sangley? Basta doon sa bandang Cavite. Pinakita sa amin yung Corvette. I dunno about ships, sabi nila Corvette daw. Too small for a destroyer, too big for a gunboat. Also I can see very little weathering especially on the anchor parts which means bago nga. The bridge is airconditioned and the gun on the front part is still new. I believe it was handed to us by Britain as the instructors told me.
Fritz
Visit this Community
Metro Manila, Philippines
Member Since: March 17, 2003
entire network: 495 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 06:43 PM UTC

Quoted Text

We can't afford good miltiary equipment because it costs a lot. We should be grateful with the hand-me-downs so far. Currently, the economy isn't performing well, so it doesn't make sense to purchase in cut-throat prices F-14s and F-16s when the government is having a hard time making jobs and putting food on people's tables.
The reason the US doesn't want to sell "kick ass" weaponry is because 1) we can't afford it (see above), and 2) security reasons. The Abrams they sold to Kuwait, Egypt and SA don't have Chobham and are bare-bones tanks so that the secrets of the Abrams aren't discovered. The -16s they sold to the UAE are the most advanced in the world because the UAE can afford it.
Furthermore, even assuming we can purchase the equipment, one has to remember about maintenance. A fleet of F-14Ds won't be of use when all are in the hangar waiting for spare parts.
Point I'm trying to make here is that we shouldn't blame the USA nor the government because of the reality of the situation. Yes, politics is a major problem in the acquisition of modern weaponry, but even if that's gone, I'd still see a lot of money poured into infrastructure upgrades. Before during the Ramos admin, we could've had better equipment, but politics came in as well as the Asian Financial Crisis. Times are different now.
The best our government can do right now is play the game diplomatically, with the US as our big stick (hopefully). This means a damn good foreign affairs team and a headstrong president. Hopefully, when the economy picks up, we'll be able to afford the new kit in, say, 10, 20 years.


I agree with GI. It's like giving a Porsche to a class D family. But mind you the Philippines isn't that poor. We are frankly, quite rich honestly. The Singapore vs. Philippine economy is nothing but bullshit. Singapore is rich because of what riches it's got is distributd aver a small population plus less politics. We on the other hand are way richer although distributed over a waaay larger population, but wait there's more . There's the really large gap between the rich & the poor, VEEEERRRRRRYYYYYYYY DIRTY POLITICS, & widespread corruption.
cbrain21
Visit this Community
Metro Manila, Philippines
Member Since: February 16, 2004
entire network: 151 Posts
KitMaker Network: 141 Posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 07:02 PM UTC
Just last week I saw two Ferraris (yeah the real ones) parked side by side in Makati. One red and the other silver. Mukang pulitiko may-ari.... dami escort na dark SUVs na katabi. Anyway as I was staring at the two mouth-watering machines.... may dumaan na batang street beggar..... wala lang.... yun lang....
Fritz
Visit this Community
Metro Manila, Philippines
Member Since: March 17, 2003
entire network: 495 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Friday, May 14, 2004 - 12:39 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Just last week I saw two Ferraris (yeah the real ones) parked side by side in Makati. One red and the other silver. Mukang pulitiko may-ari.... dami escort na dark SUVs na katabi. Anyway as I was staring at the two mouth-watering machines.... may dumaan na batang street beggar..... wala lang.... yun lang....


Oh yeah, I saw 2 Ferraris too (and a Maserati) but both were parked inside the Ferrari showroom back here in Ortigas w/c subliminally told me to "GO INSIDE AND TOUCH ME YOU JAW-DROPPED BYSTANDER!!!!" w/c I gladly did!
The 360 Modena costs only at £ 110,000+ w/c is roughly equal to less than P 10,000,000 but because of shipping costs & tax (I think) it costs P 20,000,000 here. The other model I saw I forgot the name but it was second hand and costs only P 4,000,000 (I didn't mind the second hand aspect it was well maintained BTW but the price of it, it's like the car is screaming "BUY MEEEEE!!!!!!!".

Oh yeah about the beggar, like I said the gap between the rich and the poor is waay too large.
mondo
Visit this Community
Mindanao, Philippines
Member Since: July 04, 2003
entire network: 1,036 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Friday, May 14, 2004 - 05:25 PM UTC
Y'all missed the point here. Why do we have to rely on the Americano to supply us with HW. There are other countries that produce arms comparable or even better than the US. The LAV Piranha isn't American. It's Swiss. Alvis company (makers of the Simba and Scorpions variety) build armor/apc's more suitable for us. Russian planes are easier and cheaper to maintain. South Africa has got very good transport trucks and artillery pieces. The RPG-7 is an item that the American even wished they had built themselves.
A cheap weapon that even a seven year old undernourished Somali girl can shoot down a Blackhawk with. Not that I hate the Americans'. Hey , I love Jack Daniels Bourbon Whiskey. But our fixation with American HW is not financially healthy. They are too expensive and more often complicated.

Then for training we could turn to the Aussies. They are especially trained for jungle warfare. Just read books about the Aussies escapades in Vietnam. you'll find out the the VC were more afraid about the Aussies and Koreans (Especiall Koreans) than they where with the Kano.
GIBeregovoy
Visit this Community
Metro Manila, Philippines
Member Since: May 31, 2002
entire network: 1,612 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,129 Posts
Posted: Friday, May 14, 2004 - 06:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Why do we have to rely on the Americano to supply us with HW.



Look at Malaysia. Simon Tan, a very knowledgeable member at TankNet and is a Malay, mentions that the reason Malaysia purchases its equipment not fromt the USA but from other countries was because it was more of a political decision than costs. IOW, they do not want to be closely-linked with the USA - which, according to him, costs the Malaysian military because of weapon integration issues and costs. Take for example the PT-91 they bought from Poland. The total final price they'll be paying for it will be actually MORE than what an Eastern European country (I think it was Poland) purchased for the Leopard 2A4 which is a much better tank than the Twardy. So in a sense, they didn't get the best tank for their requirements, plus they paid more for it. Less bang-per-buck.


Quoted Text

Russian planes are easier and cheaper to maintain.



Would've been true with MiG-15s and other antiquated equipment built for ruggedness. But the MiG-29 with updated avionics would just be expensive - if not more expensive - than an F-16C Block 30/40. Russian hardware looks nice. But if one cares to upgrade the FCS, avionics, and other electronics to Western standard, you'll be paying for more in the end. Better to get one package that is already "western standard" than get one inferior product, spend some more for updates, then pray it gets delivered on time and works.


Quoted Text

But our fixation with American HW is not financially healthy. They are too expensive and more often complicated.



That's what's the Balikatan is for - joint ops. Plus, we'd be buying better HW from the USA IF our politicians just leave the procurement to the soldiers.


Quoted Text

Then for training we could turn to the Aussies. They are especially trained for jungle warfare. Just read books about the Aussies escapades in Vietnam. you'll find out the the VC were more afraid about the Aussies and Koreans (Especiall Koreans) than they where with the Kano.



We don't need to train with the Aussies because we are good jungle fighters as well. All we need are decent officers and NCOs, funding and motivation. We've been having "live fire exercises" in the boondocks for decades. The reason why we can't get rid of the insurgents is political will, not military guile.

The point I'm trying to make is that diversifying your military suppliers leads to logistical problems as well as being costly in the long run. Having your military being supplied with your biggest backer will help in inter-operability for future conflicts - assuming China decides to go south, or Malaysia decides to go north. The alternative is to do what South Africa, Israel, and Singapore have successfully done - become relatively "self-reliant" by developing their own weapons systems - which is costly as well as you're not spending for off-the-shelf items.
Fritz
Visit this Community
Metro Manila, Philippines
Member Since: March 17, 2003
entire network: 495 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Friday, May 14, 2004 - 10:16 PM UTC
How about small arms? I guess it's safe to buy from other countries w/o affecting the logistical aspect since most small arms are standardized (5.56mm, 7.62mm), but then again we are already producing our own M16's .
 _GOTOTOP