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Military history and past events only. Rants or inflamitory comments will be removed.
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Military Disasters
210cav
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Posted: Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 08:34 AM UTC
IMHO, they should have said, "we are tying up enough Germans, let's stop here and go into a defensive position while continuing to bomb the piddle out of them."
phoenix-1
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Posted: Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 09:39 AM UTC
I've got a couple of nominations:
Operation Restore Hope-the Somali campaign that 4-eyes was talking about
the operation into Iran to save the US hostages in 1980
Hitler's invasion of Russia and the subsequent dismissal of the Russian winters
Hitler's creating an alliance with Italy
Kyle
Bren
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Posted: Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 11:55 PM UTC
Does appointing idiots command of various forces.... like Goering..... count as a Military Disaster, if so hitler made some bad calls when given command to various people.

What about Hitlers invasion of Poland?, if he had not been so darn greedy and pushed his luck, things might have ended differently- for better or worse?
Halfyank
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Posted: Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 02:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text


IMHO, they should have said, "we are tying up enough Germans, let's stop here and go into a defensive position while continuing to bomb the piddle out of them."


I'm sorry, I just can't see the allies, especially not with Churchill having anything to do with it, taking a defense stand like this at this stage of the war. I just really can't see the allies, once they were so close to Italy after Sicily, just stopping and staying where they were. For good or bad most wars are fought politically as well as militarily. I would think the politicians back home would put far too much pressure on the military commanders to go the rest of the way and invade Italy.

This is NOT to say that the Italian campaign wasn't wasteful or badly ran.




PLMP110
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Posted: Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 07:13 AM UTC
Although advantageous for the Allied armies, the German's assumption that the invasion of France would take place at the Pas de Calais(sp?) instead of Normandy was a huge mistake. Fortunately Eisenhower's plans deceive the Germans worked.

Patrick
crossbow
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Posted: Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 06:35 PM UTC
Hmm, it must be Monty's Market-garden. He should have listened to Eisenhower who first ordered him to clear the Scheldt estuary. It would have solved the supply problem. Saved the lives of countless troops lost in Market-garden and the battle of the ardennes could have been stopped earlier with more and better supplied troops.
Sure he had a tremendous victory at El-Alamein, but he seriously missed at Caen and Arnhem...

Kris
4-Eyes71
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Posted: Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 07:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I've got a couple of nominations:
Operation Restore Hope-the Somali campaign that 4-eyes was talking about
the operation into Iran to save the US hostages in 1980
Hitler's invasion of Russia and the subsequent dismissal of the Russian winters
Hitler's creating an alliance with Italy
Kyle


That attempt to rescue American hostages in Iran was called Operation Eagle Claw. That too had the makings of a disaster:

1. Lack of coordination of the major services. Turf issue.
2. Lack of spec ops capability of their air assets. Apparently the helo pilots lacked the skills.
3. Lack of redundancy. No back-ups. You can't be too skimpy in a risky op like this. In the aftermath of the fiasco, the British and Israelis commented that there should have been more helos deployed.
4. You cannot blame the Delta Force and Rangers. Their part of the mission hasn't even started yet.

As a result, the Iranians gloated, America got a black eye and Jimmy Carter lost his chance for re-election.

It is for that reason USSOCOM was created. It seemed the major armed services were hamstringing or strangling their spec ops assets of the resources they need to operate effectively.
210cav
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Posted: Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 09:56 PM UTC
We often forget that little fiasco in Iraq. That event traumatized the military and produced change` Defeat does that to an army.
greatbrit
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Posted: Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 09:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text

We often forget that little fiasco in Iraq. That event traumatized the military and produced change` Defeat does that to an army.


which event do you refer to DJ?

cheers

joe
Ranger74
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Posted: Monday, April 19, 2004 - 01:26 PM UTC
We seem to have a fascination with the 20th Century, with one exception above. I have a few older examples:

Two disasters in Afghanistan by England in the late 1800s, including the destruction of an entire army. The Russins repeated the same mistake a 100 years later, but lasted a good bit longer.

General Braxton Bragg was a one-man disaster for the Army of Tennessee, but MG Hood's Atlanta and Nashville campaigns guaranteed that the South would lose the American Civil War.

Gen Howe (Thurston III? :-) ) failure to not assist GEN Burgoyne with what is now called the "Saratoga Campaign", while he went onto Philadelphia, resulted, not only in the lost of Burgoyne's entire army, but led to the recall of Howe!

Just a couple 18th and 19th century disasters.

Whiskey
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Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 11:23 AM UTC
The Alamo was not a military disaster. It wasnt even a military operation so to speak.


My candidates are the defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588 and Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo.
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 12:28 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

We often forget that little fiasco in Iraq. That event traumatized the military and produced change` Defeat does that to an army.


which event do you refer to DJ?

cheers

joe


Joe-- during the mighty Carter years, we ran a futile effort to free the hostages fdrom our embassy in Tehran. It was an umitigated disaster. A great deal was learnt from that disaster.
DJ
4-Eyes71
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Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 01:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text

We often forget that little fiasco in Iraq. That event traumatized the military and produced change` Defeat does that to an army.

which event do you refer to DJ?

cheers

joe

Joe-- during the mighty Carter years, we ran a futile effort to free the hostages fdrom our embassy in Tehran. It was an umitigated disaster. A great deal was learnt from that disaster.
DJ


Forgive me for quoting a quote. But I'm a bit confused. I was wondering when was Tehran in Iraq?

DJ: The Iraqi fiasco, were you referring to operation Eagle Claw?
Whiskey
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Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 02:39 PM UTC
Fellas I believe he meant to say Iran but just said Iraq for some unknown reason.
greatbrit
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Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 08:35 PM UTC
thats what confused me, i thought DJ meant iran

cheers

joe
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 05:28 AM UTC
Dear Lord, I finally did it, I made a mistake! Wow.
keenan
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Posted: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 09:05 AM UTC
DJ, I recorded the date and time in my journal. I will be sure to mention this in the after action report...LOL

I thought I was wrong once but I was mistaken.
FIDO DJ, FIDO.

Shaun
Ranger74
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Posted: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:33 AM UTC
Desert One was a case of having to massage each and every services inflated egos!

I was going to go into some details, but I don't want to start an inter-service flame war!

Just leave it to be said, that the fewer "chefs", the easier the meal.
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:11 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Desert One was a case of having to massage each and every services inflated egos!

I was going to go into some details, but I don't want to start an inter-service flame war!

Just leave it to be said, that the fewer "chefs", the easier the meal.

Jeff-- there was blame enough for everyone to have egg on their face over that disaster. I think the most significant development to come out of the mess was the emphasis on joint operation, creation of SOCOM and the removal of the terrible political administartion that could never get its act together.
DJ
DD-393
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Posted: Friday, April 23, 2004 - 01:10 PM UTC
There are a lot of good answers here. I'm not sure if it's the greatest of all time, but I'll chime in with the Battle of Antietam in the American Civil War. The entire campaign was filled with miscalculation and incompetence from the very beginning. Robert E. Lee wanted to gain European recognition with a victory on Northern soil. That would never happen while the southern states advocated slavery. One of Gen Lee's officers lost a set of the plans for the campaign. George McClellan ended up with the plans and still couldn't win the victory by defeating Lee's army while it was divided. Tactically the battle was not fought well. The Union forces were thrown into battle in an uncoordinated manner, allowing Lee to move his troops to where the strongest attacks were. Ambrose Burnside foreshadowed his debacle at Fredericksburg by taking hours to cross a bridge while there was a crossing less than a mile away. And the entire battle need not have been fought, as Lee could have retreated before the battle, but he seemed to have been suffering from an attack of ego. At least some good came out of it : The Emancipation Proclomation.

-Charlie
210cav
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Posted: Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 07:23 AM UTC
Charlie-- appreciate you orienting us towards the American Civil War which produced some monumental boners. My all time disaster from that conflict is the Battle of Chancellorsville. Hooker literally snatches defeat from the jaws of victory in May of 1863. If he still controlled the Army as it moved into Gettysburg, the Union would have been doomed. Thank God for Meade.
DJ
phoenix-1
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Posted: Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 02:46 PM UTC
As long as we are talking about the Civil War, how about "The Crater." It was the Battle of ? where Confederate troops were fortified in a railroad station in Virginia or somewhere like that. The Union decides to literally blow a hole in the Confederate defenses by tunneling under the lines and using tons of dynamite to blast a hole in them. The Union prepares for this by training an African-American unit in assaulting in this type of scenario, go around the hole-not through it. Unfortunately, some racist Union officer gets the bright idea to replace the unit with his own units of white soldiers who, when the time comes, go through the hole instead of around it, turning what could have been a major victory into a humiliating defeat.
Kyle
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