Will the removal of the current chairmen of the PLO increase the chances for a peaceful settlement of the Middle East crisis?
DJ
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Arafat
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Monday, June 24, 2002 - 08:50 AM UTC
oraora
Member Since: June 19, 2002
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Posted: Monday, June 24, 2002 - 09:00 AM UTC
Dunno 'bout that, but let's hope it will bring 'em all peace and an end to all these endless killings.
E23C
Member Since: January 23, 2002
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Posted: Monday, June 24, 2002 - 10:05 AM UTC
Hard to say,but at the moment he does not have any control over the Suicide bombers,or does he?The problem would be who takes his place?
The Middle east is a really big mess and I hope they can get themselves sorted out soon!
The Middle east is a really big mess and I hope they can get themselves sorted out soon!
mj
Member Since: March 16, 2002
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Posted: Monday, June 24, 2002 - 10:59 AM UTC
Great question! I don't think Arafat can, or wants to, stop the suicide bombers. I think he had a great chance to solve this whole mess with the Camp David Accords, and backed away because he didn't think the more militant elements in his organization would go for it.
I don't think the Palestinians will appreciate President Bush telling them Arafat has to go. However, I don't think any peace accord has a chance with him still in control of the PLO. A good question was raised, however. Who will take his place?
I would love to see a settlement, so people in that region could live in peace. In my heart of hearts, however, I just don't see how it will be achieved. It's almost as if people on both sides have decided it's annihilation, or nothing. A sad, sad state of affairs. I'm sure there must be an answer...I just don't see it.
Mike
I don't think the Palestinians will appreciate President Bush telling them Arafat has to go. However, I don't think any peace accord has a chance with him still in control of the PLO. A good question was raised, however. Who will take his place?
I would love to see a settlement, so people in that region could live in peace. In my heart of hearts, however, I just don't see how it will be achieved. It's almost as if people on both sides have decided it's annihilation, or nothing. A sad, sad state of affairs. I'm sure there must be an answer...I just don't see it.
Mike
cdave
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Posted: Monday, June 24, 2002 - 12:29 PM UTC
I (for one's opinion) do not think so.
I have spoken with a few Palestinians (who live here in the US) and they do not acknowlege that fack that isreal should exist. This along with the fact that I do not see Palestinian mothers crying for their children, that the violence will not end.
Funny, they said this about Northern Ireland and it is still holding (more or less, past weekend not including).
Hopefully, there will be a parity shift one of these days and this hatred will end.
One man's opinion!
Dave
I have spoken with a few Palestinians (who live here in the US) and they do not acknowlege that fack that isreal should exist. This along with the fact that I do not see Palestinian mothers crying for their children, that the violence will not end.
Funny, they said this about Northern Ireland and it is still holding (more or less, past weekend not including).
Hopefully, there will be a parity shift one of these days and this hatred will end.
One man's opinion!
Dave
penpen
Member Since: April 11, 2002
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Posted: Monday, June 24, 2002 - 07:26 PM UTC
As everyone said, the main problem I see is : who could replace him ?
There are peace loving people... but would they have enough leverage to take the power and
achieve something ?
A few years ago, in the 90's, I realy believed in peace. Today, I still remember that time and I still hope.
But of course I live in a country at peace and I don't have to go through all the hardships that people
have to suffer on both sides.
The big problem with Arafat is that he practises double language.
Most of the money that goes to help his people and his state come from Europe
(and not from the arab countries). So he tells us that he's a victim, and that he wants peace.
His power comes from support from his people and the arab countries. So he tells them that he's there
to protect the holly places of Islam, Jerusalem where the prophet climbed to the sky.
Sadly, he neighbouring countries often prefer to throw oil on the fire rather than to help solve the problem.
That way, ther own people don't start asking them questions about how the state is run... why they can't
give their opinion... I think that if we saw a true democratic transformation going on in the region, we would
have a much better chance of witnessing peace someday.
Also, education of the people is very important. The school manuals edited by arafat's state, or sent to
them by Egypt or Syria teach the children that the Jew ( not the Israeli,
as this word is unknown in most arab states) is treacherous and dangerous. Because of such exemples,
I do believe that Arafat has a very heavy responsibility in today's and tomorrow's deaths...
There are peace loving people... but would they have enough leverage to take the power and
achieve something ?
A few years ago, in the 90's, I realy believed in peace. Today, I still remember that time and I still hope.
But of course I live in a country at peace and I don't have to go through all the hardships that people
have to suffer on both sides.
The big problem with Arafat is that he practises double language.
Most of the money that goes to help his people and his state come from Europe
(and not from the arab countries). So he tells us that he's a victim, and that he wants peace.
His power comes from support from his people and the arab countries. So he tells them that he's there
to protect the holly places of Islam, Jerusalem where the prophet climbed to the sky.
Sadly, he neighbouring countries often prefer to throw oil on the fire rather than to help solve the problem.
That way, ther own people don't start asking them questions about how the state is run... why they can't
give their opinion... I think that if we saw a true democratic transformation going on in the region, we would
have a much better chance of witnessing peace someday.
Also, education of the people is very important. The school manuals edited by arafat's state, or sent to
them by Egypt or Syria teach the children that the Jew ( not the Israeli,
as this word is unknown in most arab states) is treacherous and dangerous. Because of such exemples,
I do believe that Arafat has a very heavy responsibility in today's and tomorrow's deaths...
avukich
Member Since: April 11, 2002
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Posted: Monday, June 24, 2002 - 08:35 PM UTC
I, for one, believe that replacing him would be a good thing. It certainly can't hurt.
Think about this: In all the years that this Israeli--Palestinian conflict has been going on the only true constant in the equation has been Arafat. Israeli leadership has ranged from true dove to hard-liner and yet there has been no agreement reached. Maybe that is because the Israeli's don't have anything to work with (i.e. Arafat). If he truly wanted peace it would have been achieved at Camp David. The fact is, he wants turmoil because it keeps him looking more important than he is in the Arab world. With peace he is nothing but a joke in charge of a tiny little country with no natural resources, no jobs, and very little land to speak of.
My .02 cents.
Think about this: In all the years that this Israeli--Palestinian conflict has been going on the only true constant in the equation has been Arafat. Israeli leadership has ranged from true dove to hard-liner and yet there has been no agreement reached. Maybe that is because the Israeli's don't have anything to work with (i.e. Arafat). If he truly wanted peace it would have been achieved at Camp David. The fact is, he wants turmoil because it keeps him looking more important than he is in the Arab world. With peace he is nothing but a joke in charge of a tiny little country with no natural resources, no jobs, and very little land to speak of.
My .02 cents.
Bravo-Comm
Member Since: March 20, 2002
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Posted: Monday, June 24, 2002 - 09:12 PM UTC
I Say Keep an eye on his Right Hand Man, It's my opinon, That If Yasar-Arafat does fall from power, We will see this man rise to power.Dagger-1
ek
Member Since: February 15, 2002
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Posted: Monday, June 24, 2002 - 10:56 PM UTC
i don't think arafat want or can do anything about it now. when he could do it he did'nt do anything and now when he cant do it he just has an excuse why he don't do anything.
i've seen some horrifying things in the palastinian authority and most of them are self inflicted. since the oslo agreement the only thing that was developed in the PA was arafat houses (palaces is more like it) and his partners for the goverment houses. the sewers are still flowing in the streets there. they say he is the elected leader of the palastinians, but they forget to mention that he was the only candidate participating in the elections, because no one else was allowed to participate. u can't blame israel for all that happens there. ofcourse it's very conviniant and looks a lot better on the news, but it's just very hypocritic.
i don't know what will happen if arafat won't be the leader of the palastinians but i can tell u this: right now and as i can see it from here (that is israel), the situation can't go any worse than already is. so without him it cant be worse than it is now. right now the terror organizations do what they want. if he is gone they will do what they want too. what's the change? nothing.
so i don't really care what will happen with him. as long as they let their terror organizations run loose, there will never be peace.
i've seen some horrifying things in the palastinian authority and most of them are self inflicted. since the oslo agreement the only thing that was developed in the PA was arafat houses (palaces is more like it) and his partners for the goverment houses. the sewers are still flowing in the streets there. they say he is the elected leader of the palastinians, but they forget to mention that he was the only candidate participating in the elections, because no one else was allowed to participate. u can't blame israel for all that happens there. ofcourse it's very conviniant and looks a lot better on the news, but it's just very hypocritic.
i don't know what will happen if arafat won't be the leader of the palastinians but i can tell u this: right now and as i can see it from here (that is israel), the situation can't go any worse than already is. so without him it cant be worse than it is now. right now the terror organizations do what they want. if he is gone they will do what they want too. what's the change? nothing.
so i don't really care what will happen with him. as long as they let their terror organizations run loose, there will never be peace.
shiryon
Member Since: April 26, 2002
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Posted: Monday, June 24, 2002 - 11:18 PM UTC
I think two things are going on with Arafat. One He hasn't been able to change from terrorist to politician. The Golden rule in politics is you can believe what you want just don't say it. It's just I believe the old saying about it "can't be everyone elses fault all the time". If he keeps up the rhetoric whether to the world or in arabic to the arab media and the palastinians That we will "Fight on". Nothing will change. Second watch carefully when He is talking in public to the media He seems lost and someone is always telling him what to say, probably word for word. It makes you wonder if he has some degenerative disease like alsheimers. Yes he needs to be removed, maybe by someone like Ashrawi if she can actualy use the smarts she seems to have for something other than always blaming the Israelis for every ill. What ever they do they must choose soon. Not being privy to Inner cabinet meetings I can't say for sure, but that wall is great way to say "no more debate, whats inside is yours and whats outside mine. You cross or shell from your area we'll bomb you back to the stone age, Or you can behave Like the rest of the relatively civilized world andyou can have as much trade and help as you can produce or want". If Sharon does that and seals them behind a wall they lose everything For there will be no mor negotiations, so yes he needs to be removed . But only by the palastinians, NOT the US, Israel or even moderate arab countries. Amove by anyone else I think would be catastrofic for the whole area.
My two cents worth
My two cents worth
Greg
Member Since: April 12, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 03:37 AM UTC
Arafat is a relic, just as Sharon is. Sharon will go in time; that is the nature of Israeli electoral politics. But Arafat...he's operating like a little king. I think he does need to go, and like the rest of you I am very uneasy about who will replace him. There seem to be no moderates to follow him, only hard-liners like Hamas. Maybe giving the radicals a chance to run things will be good. They will probably not run the West bank any more efficiently, and eventually lose popular support. Likewise their policy of encouraging homicide bombings will also lose them support unless it causes Israel to cave in right away. That won't happen, so the cycle continues: They blow up civilians, Israeli tanks flatten their cities. Life in Palestinian territory continues to deteriorate and they are no closer to getting their independence. In time, Palestinians capable of rational thought (there must be two or three at least....) will conclude that nothing will make Israel go away and the best htey can hope for is to keep their tanks across the border where they belong. To do that, their own society and political objectives must be religned to accept Israel's security requirements. But they are not culturally and politically ready to do that yet. I think that to move this along, Arafat must be replaced by the radicals and they in turn must see their policies fail and be discredited within their own political culture. Only when the Palestinians see the bankruptcy of the policy of homicide bombing will they change their objectives and policy. But I am afraid that they will have to sacrifice most of their cities to Israeli tank fire and an entire generation of brainwashed youth to suicide missions before this happens. Fools.
Greg
Greg
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 07:45 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Arafat is a relic, just as Sharon is. Sharon will go in time; that is the nature of Israeli electoral politics. But Arafat...he's operating like a little king. I think he does need to go, and like the rest of you I am very uneasy about who will replace him. There seem to be no moderates to follow him, only hard-liners like Hamas. Maybe giving the radicals a chance to run things will be good. They will probably not run the West bank any more efficiently, and eventually lose popular support. Likewise their policy of encouraging homicide bombings will also lose them support unless it causes Israel to cave in right away. That won't happen, so the cycle continues: They blow up civilians, Israeli tanks flatten their cities. Life in Palestinian territory continues to deteriorate and they are no closer to getting their independence. In time, Palestinians capable of rational thought (there must be two or three at least....) will conclude that nothing will make Israel go away and the best htey can hope for is to keep their tanks across the border where they belong. To do that, their own society and political objectives must be religned to accept Israel's security requirements. But they are not culturally and politically ready to do that yet. I think that to move this along, Arafat must be replaced by the radicals and they in turn must see their policies fail and be discredited within their own political culture. Only when the Palestinians see the bankruptcy of the policy of homicide bombing will they change their objectives and policy. But I am afraid that they will have to sacrifice most of their cities to Israeli tank fire and an entire generation of brainwashed youth to suicide missions before this happens. Fools.
Greg
I see that we have a consensus on several points. First, who is going to replace the man? Second, anyone who does replace the current "leader" will be signing his own death warrant. Third, is anything (and I mean anything) happens to Arafat, the US and Israel will be seen as the instigators. This last point is one we should pursue further. If, for example, you were a Palestinian who wanted to gain control and you bumped off Arafat, you could claim others did it and that you were merely coming to the rescue at a critical moment. The perpetrator of such an act would come out of this smelling like a rose. What do you think?
DJ
Posted: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 10:15 PM UTC
simplistic solution for Arafat: one bullet, one kill......................sound familiar.
Greg
Member Since: April 12, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 10:16 PM UTC
Dicey move, DJ...Making such an smash-and-grab assassination for power could be done, but I don't see how it would halp the Palestinian people in the long run. The ruthlessness and secrecy needed to carry out such an act don't mesh at all with concepts like civil liberties, peaceful transistions of power, and openness and accountability in government. Stuff we take for granted here, although we don't put saints in office either. (I'm old enough to not be quite THAT naive! 
). Bumping Arafat off and blaming the US/Israel would require excellent security for as long as the individual planned to remain in power (and alive). Keeping that requires huge bribes, massive indimidation, or both. It seems to me that the kinds of goodfellas who would do this are hardly the type of forward-thinking patriots the Palestinians need right now. Here's another question for all of us:
Why is it the Palestinians aren't looking at their own political history in Lebanon? They didn't start the death spiral there, but their actions certainly helped to perpetuate it. We don't hear much about Lebanon now since they aren't killing each other in large numbers any more and the Israelis are gone. But the place remains a wreck. Doesn't anybody in Palestinian politics think about that and ponder what it means for their prospective state in the West Bank and Gaza? They are setting themselves up for the same kind of civil strife they exploited in Lebanon a quarter century ago--only this time it is their own declared homeland they will destroy.
Greg
). Bumping Arafat off and blaming the US/Israel would require excellent security for as long as the individual planned to remain in power (and alive). Keeping that requires huge bribes, massive indimidation, or both. It seems to me that the kinds of goodfellas who would do this are hardly the type of forward-thinking patriots the Palestinians need right now. Here's another question for all of us:Why is it the Palestinians aren't looking at their own political history in Lebanon? They didn't start the death spiral there, but their actions certainly helped to perpetuate it. We don't hear much about Lebanon now since they aren't killing each other in large numbers any more and the Israelis are gone. But the place remains a wreck. Doesn't anybody in Palestinian politics think about that and ponder what it means for their prospective state in the West Bank and Gaza? They are setting themselves up for the same kind of civil strife they exploited in Lebanon a quarter century ago--only this time it is their own declared homeland they will destroy.
Greg
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 01:02 AM UTC
Greg--the devious mind is always at work. If I thought up this plot, no doubt others are already practicing it. If there a solution forthcoming, I sure can not see it from here.
DJ
DJ
Greg
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Posted: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 03:22 AM UTC
Oh, I don't doubt for a minute that such a plot is brewing, DJ. Unfortunately there is every reason to believe that it is happening behind the scenes, and if it comes to fruition it can only make things worse for the Palestinians. Dubya wants to see new ELECTED leadership, not a coup d'etat, and the administration would certainly react by isolating the newly minted Palestinian leader. And I can't say as that reaction would be at all wrong. And the Palestinian people would simply continue to suffer the consequences. Regardless of success or failure a coup would set the stage for a factional war within the Palestinian territories, making Israel still more nervous. And should a coup succeed, I wonder what the reaction of other Arab governments will be--will they recognize the regime? That would undoubtedly put them on a collision course with US policy. And if they don't what of the reaction of the Arab Street? The rest of the Arab regimes in the region would face potentially fatal internal strife as well. As Han Solo once said, I have a very bad feeling about this...
Greg
Greg
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 08:07 AM UTC
Greg--the Star War line is priceless. Well done!
thanks
DJ
thanks
DJ
ponysoldier
Member Since: March 13, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 12:23 PM UTC
Ok my two cents. We all seem to agree on several {many} points. If Arafat was
taken out Im not sure {at all} that the next Guy is going is going to be any
better. But it seems to me that Arafat is nothing more than a puppet really
placed there buy some one else. If this so next guy is going to be a puppet
also. Israel can hardly be blamed for reacting to the terrorism.The one
thing that we do all agree upon is that we dont see any resoluation to
to this. My next thought is how many of us really think that a major
conflict is a thing of the near future? I mean I'm not a warmonger or anything
but I just dont see a viable soulation to this.
ponysoldier
The Horse The Gun The Man
taken out Im not sure {at all} that the next Guy is going is going to be any
better. But it seems to me that Arafat is nothing more than a puppet really
placed there buy some one else. If this so next guy is going to be a puppet
also. Israel can hardly be blamed for reacting to the terrorism.The one
thing that we do all agree upon is that we dont see any resoluation to
to this. My next thought is how many of us really think that a major
conflict is a thing of the near future? I mean I'm not a warmonger or anything
but I just dont see a viable soulation to this.
ponysoldier
The Horse The Gun The Man
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 09:36 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Ok my two cents. We all seem to agree on several {many} points. If Arafat was
taken out Im not sure {at all} that the next Guy is going is going to be any
better. But it seems to me that Arafat is nothing more than a puppet really
placed there buy some one else. If this so next guy is going to be a puppet
also. Israel can hardly be blamed for reacting to the terrorism.The one
thing that we do all agree upon is that we dont see any resoluation to
to this. My next thought is how many of us really think that a major
conflict is a thing of the near future? I mean I'm not a warmonger or anything
but I just dont see a viable soulation to this.
ponysoldier
The Horse The Gun The Man
Well, we use to say there was the known, unknown, and the unknown unknown. If Arafat departed short of a heart attack (which we would also be accussed of causing), there is no butturance that his successor will be anything but a continuation or expansion of the incumbent's madness. The best hope we have is that they will put a lid on the suicide bombers just to get the Israeli's out while they turn back on the water. The long term vision is part of that unknown unknown.
DJ
Posted: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 10:10 PM UTC
some people say violence solves nothing, yes it does,PERMANENTLY
Greg
Member Since: April 12, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 10:19 PM UTC
In a sense that's true Pak, but with these guys I doubt it. Both sides here have a culture that glorifies ancient greivances, vendettas, and revenge. They make the Mafia look like pikers. So violence short of total genocide really won't solve the provlem, IMO. That's not to say another major war won't happen. Both sides have to discover that they can't win by armed conflict. The legitimate (I use that advisedly...) Arab govermnents gave up on the conventional military route decades ago, because they discovered they could never win a stand up fight. Well, then there is irregular warfare which is the strategy being pursued now. And I have a feeling it might work to the extent that they might inflict a level of pain that causes Israel to either pull out completely and fortify the border or commence ethnic cleansing of the West Bank. I think some Palestinian leaders want to see the latter happen, so that Israel is vilified and the international community comes down hard to impose a solution like in the Balkans. And getting back to the point, Arafat's presence or absence makes little difference to that strategy. "You're boss is quite a card player, Mr. Kelly; how does he do it?" "He cheats...."
Greg
Greg
Posted: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 11:34 PM UTC
my point: SVD, PSO-1 scope and 7.62x54mm round. crude, but effective
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 04:04 AM UTC
Quoted Text
my point: SVD, PSO-1 scope and 7.62x54mm round. crude, but effective
Totally cool response. Can we assume that you are not an employee of the US State Department???
DJ
Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 06:59 AM UTC
unemployed at the moment. if the oppurtunity presented itself.................................
sourkraut
Member Since: May 11, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 10:15 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Will the removal of the current chairmen of the PLO increase the chances for a peaceful settlement of the Middle East crisis?
DJ
it depends on his replacement
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