While I don't wish any ill-will to our more dedicated modelers (and professional modelers), I think that something must come about concerning levels of quality and where you get your samples from.

This is a list of parts needed for a 1/32 F-4E Phantom II for the Hellenic AF, as done in Geoff Coughlin's Book, "Modeling the F-4 Phantom II":

Tamiya 60310 $ 213.00
ED 32073 - $ 19.95
ED 32080 - "
ED 49009 - $ 7.95

Reheat RH139 resin FOD guards - $ 14.99 (if you can find them)
Reheat MB H7 seats (for 2 seats) - $ 29.87
Cutting Edge Wing conversion kit - $ 43.99
Cutting Edge Wheels Set - OOP

Total $359.70

CAM decals 32-037 - OOP
Superscale Decals Tail Codes - 48-183 and 48-179 - $ 13.95 (2)
Superscale Decals F-4 Stencils - 32-03 OOP
XtraColor X036 Camo Gray BS 629 - $ 3.40
XtraColor X125 Intermediate Blue FS 15164 - $ 3.40
XtraColor X126 Dark Blue Gray FS 15237 - $ 3.40
XtraColor X135 Dark Compass Gray FS 16320 - $ 3.40
Humbrol Polished Gun Metal 27004 - $ 3.40
Humbrol Polished Steel 27003 - $ 3.40

Total (no tax or VAT or shipping) $ 427.00. Add shipping costs, taxes and VAT and you're well over 500 dollars US.

As you can clearly see, this is costing a fortune for most of us, to build to a level of quality of Geoff's caliber. It must be nice to receive samples from Hannant's, Tamiya, and other modeling companies to review their products, but rarely if ever, is it written that these additional items raise the price of modeling to extremes.

OOP means out of production...

427 dollars is a lot of money for almost any of us... so please, if you're going to show off your skills, and you got samples, include the prices and where you got them. This would allow us to make a more informed choice as to whether or not we are up to caliber for displaying our models on here, or merely leaving them on a shelf at home.

Hey, man. Different strokes. I like to build the occasional Dragon or Trumpeter kit, with all the trimmings. I've found a medium. One of these master kits spread out. So, I'll build two or three right oob, while I plan my big builds.

I can understand your views, but what I was getting at was the fact that a lot of the modelers on here seem to be getting samples from various manufacturers and without knowing the price, others see these kits and want to build to the same level. Unfortunately, going broke or not paying rent to make a kit perfect is hardly the idea either. All of those items I listed were samples sent by the various manufacturers to Geoff, through Hannants, mostly, with the possible exception of the F-4.

No, I was referring to the price. I spend weeks sourcing am parts, to get the best value for my money. If it is too, expensive, I go another route. At that, I usually like to purchase "builder's kits". I can usually stay under $80 for the kit and am parts. Everything else is just skill.

Hi James,

I agree with your point if it's about how costly it is to assemble and finish a model to standards that most would consider "show winning".

It's been that way for some time however and it's not just the aircraft guys who need to add the am stuff for a build to be considered top notch. With armour it's metal tracks, pe improvements sets, resin correction sets, am decals, metal barrels and resin figures. Ship buld I've admired recentyl include replacement wooden decks, pe radars weapons mounts and railings and often wm fittings. Most builds seems to have a additonal parts cost anywahere from equal to double or more the cost of the base kit.

Now I'm not saying this is nescesarily bad, we all like admiring the best builds and taking inspiration from them. Lets face it if OOB builds got the same attention from magazines, shows and on forums then maybe the am expolsion would be a little more in check. The point being though is that models produced with significant quantities of am parts are the norm as most are well aware.

But I don't really agree with your issue about the builder receiving free samples though and not detailing the prices involved. It's not like he hid that there were am parts involved. Whether they're directed purchased or freebies is almost irrelevant isn't it as we know they're used.

Heck I'd love to get samples to use on my stuff. As it is I use up old kits for parts, build OOB or just don't build at all as even the base kits prices are a struggle for me at the moment. If I can't find a kit at a bargin price via mail order then I miss out. But that's just the way it is.

This sort of leads into the question of modelling books in general. Did the Phantom book provide inspiration or details/processes that could be used by you, or was it just a specific model/version build? The former fall into books imo which are useful regardless of any am used and the later is more a chowcase/money spinner for the author.

Anyway sorry for the lengthy spiel, it certainly is an interesting subject you've raised, what with modelling costs increasing and disposable incomes flat or falling (for some anyway lol).

cheers
Brent

I am making a specific kit - the RF-4EJ (501st Hikotai) and although it doesn't require the specific Tamiya kit, it still beggars the question of cost vs. quality. I thought I was pretty good, and I scrounge my parts from everywhere. I use steel shot in disposable lighter cases, and I even take the wheel and springs to use on other kits... I slip the steel shot in the case of the lighter, seal the end and then glue it in the fuselage, which allows tricycle landing gear aircraft to stand on its gear without adding tons of shot to the nose cone.

Aftermarket parts used to be expensive in the old days, but they should be going down in price as the market opens, not go higher. It's not a question of supply and demand; it's a question of someone providing a needed item at an extremely high price, and for what? To get rich...

So you know how much it costs to create masters, finish them, create moulds, buy resin, packaging, then sell these to the trade (at trade prices), renew the moulds when they wear etc. Estimate the quantity you will sell to work out cost per items given all that I've mentioned.

You know all those costs do you ? so you can justify saying that they are doing it to get rich......

In any case who goes into any business venture with the objective of not making money? with the possiblity of becoming rich in the process.

First off, step back and get off your high horse.

I wasn't referring to the small cottage industry mom-and-pop aftermarket parts makers, but larger corporations... Yes, I know exactly how much it costs to make PE parts. It's less than a dollar per fret and those are large ones... I used to make PE negatives and do first runs. The resin used (and I have bought some resin-cast parts that were absolutely horrible and from more reputable companies) - they buy, is in bulk quantities (several thousand gallons). Initial costs are high but as you make more parts, the price usually goes down, not up. That is what I meant, but as usual, some here think they are the experts.

So step back, get off your high horse and try reading my posts...

I think its you who needs to climb done off his high horse

Reading through your posts, until now, you make no distinction between the size of any supplier of after market parts or that you are speaking of resin or PE in different context. All lumped together as those aftermarket folks making it rich.....


So we are supposed to be mind readers are we, to know what you meant rather than what you write.

As for your inference that a lot of modellers here are getting free samples they are probably contributors to the web site in the way of product reviews, build reviews etc.

As for your statement regarding resin parts "Initial costs are high but as you make more parts, the price usually goes down, not up." Again I question your business experience in manufacturing resin parts to qualify that statement.


So you seem to have an axe to grind with these people getting and using "free samples" or are we suppose to mind read something else when you write "but what I was getting at was the fact that a lot of the modelers on here seem to be getting samples from various manufacturers and without knowing the price. What evidence do you have they don't know the price?

Rest assured the amount of time they take posting reviews and build articles far outways receiving free samples of kits or after market accessories.

In any case unless you are building to compete in competitions I can't see what your problem is. Build what you want, build what you can afford, build what you enjoy.

No such thing as "needed item" you assert to, only in the individuals perception.

In any case spending a whole load of money on aftermarket parts still doesn't guarantee your model will turn out as good as the people you quote. That after all is down to individual skill of the modeller, you can buy all the aftermarket available and your model could still turn out crap.

Indeed many of the models I've seen and admire, show winning or not, have very little in the way of after market extras, instead its the quality of build, painting, finish, skill of the modeller. etc. Even that good old skill scratch building showing what can be done.

I'd say the market wasn't growing for aftermarket to give this reduction in price due to increased quantity. Given the rising standards in model manufacturer, parts, detail of kits straight out the box today the need for after market is decreasing.

[quote]I think its you who needs to climb done off his high horse

Reading through your posts, until now, you make no distinction between the size of any supplier of after market parts or that you are speaking of resin or PE in different context. All lumped together as those aftermarket folks making it rich.....

Well, pardon me for that... my bad.


So we are supposed to be mind readers are we, to know what you meant rather than what you write.

Well, you seem to know what I'm thinking so you tell me...

As for your inference that a lot of modellers here are getting free samples they are probably contributors to the web site in the way of product reviews, build reviews etc.
I was referring to Geoff Coughlin, had you read his books, but then, you probably haven't...

As for your statement regarding resin parts "Initial costs are high but as you make more parts, the price usually goes down, not up." Again I question your business experience in manufacturing resin parts to qualify that statement.

Well, if you make one part for one car (in the automotive world and elsewhere) then it's a high price, but if you make 100,000, then by most business practices, the price per part goes down.


So you seem to have an axe to grind with these people getting and using "free samples" or are we suppose to mind read something else when you write "but what I was getting at was the fact that a lot of the modelers on here seem to be getting samples from various manufacturers and without knowing the price. What evidence do you have they don't know the price?

I didn't say they didn't -- you did. I was saying that we don't know the price, but then, you're the expert?

Rest assured the amount of time they take posting reviews and build articles far outways receiving free samples of kits or after market accessories. By the way, it's outweighs, not outways...

In any case unless you are building to compete in competitions I can't see what your problem is. Build what you want, build what you can afford, build what you enjoy.

No such thing as "needed item" you assert to, only in the individuals perception.

In any case spending a whole load of money on aftermarket parts still doesn't guarantee your model will turn out as good as the people you quote. That after all is down to individual skill of the modeller, you can buy all the aftermarket available and your model could still turn out crap.

Indeed many of the models I've seen and admire, show winning or not, have very little in the way of after market extras, instead its the quality of build, painting, finish, skill of the modeller. etc. Even that good old skill scratch building showing what can be done.

I'd say the market wasn't growing for aftermarket to give this reduction in price due to increased quantity. Given the rising standards in model manufacturer, parts, detail of kits straight out the box today the need for after market is decreasing.

Trumpeter has done exactly that, quality is down, but price is up, with the possible exception of their MiG-23/27 Flogger kit. That kit is highly detailed and high priced, but Tamiya had reused their F-4E molds so many times, they are becoming useless and they won't renew the molds. Molds are made out of a aluminum now, and they are laser-cut and machined by computer. That initial cost is high, but if they produce 100,000 kit runs, the cost should go down; otherwise, you redid the molds for nothing.

As for photo-etching, the economical way is to produce multiple quantities of the same etch on one sheet - less waste that way. Why do you think electronic prices are down? They make the parts in the 100's of thousands, so the cost per unit is lower. I used to print off plates (P/E) for about 11.00 a sheet, and I could get 20-30 images per sheet. That's 35-50 cents per single item, and we sold them at a rate of 1.55 times our manufacturing costs (less taxes). So, unless you make P/E, you're blowing smoke...

Quote from you

"As for your inference that a lot of modellers here are getting free samples they are probably contributors to the web site in the way of product reviews, build reviews etc.
I was referring to Geoff Coughlin, had you read his books, but then, you probably haven't... "

Really, then why did you say this in post three

Quote
"but what I was getting at was the fact that a lot of the modelers on here seem to be getting samples from various manufacturers"

No I haven't read the book but I didn't see in the title or description about you must build it this way with these parts or its a failure. I doubt if he or the publishers are making it rich either.

With your business experience and knowing manufacturing costs setting up a business making parts to "get rich" seems the obvious way for you to go. I wish you every success.

At the risk of interrupting a death-spiral, guys, may I interject a few tidbits regarding costs?

First, there is a marked difference in the business models of injection-moulded plastics (IMP hereafter) and resin casting. With IMP, you can count on not getting much change back from say $10k per tooled sprue, which gets spread across the total production run. If you cut slightly cheaper soft Ali tools with short runs (10,000) in mind that's say $1/sprue, plus the cost of the run, packaging, etc to recoup from the wholesale price before there's a penny of profit. But if you only run say 1,000 copies, that's $10/sprue +costs... And if like Tamiya you cut tooling from steel at higher tooling cost, you can potentially get 100,000 copies from them before they are too rough to use, so that's a princely 10 cents per shot. Of course, with these bigger runs, I doubt they ever start by saying "let's do 100k", but instead plan on making back their money at lower margins on a 10k run, followed eventually by a few extra runs if the demand is still there. So, with IMP, more is cheaper - but only assuming your parts have a big enough masrket to absorb large numbers...

Resin is a whole different matter. Sure, there's a small cost in terms of the resin, rubber, etc. And there's still the cost of making the master, packing/shipping the finished products, etc. But there's a lot more labour involved per casting, and doing large runs doesn't make those labour costs go down. (IMP, by comparison, is a "set up, go away, and return to check on the machine occasionally" process once the tooling has been cut...) So resin is always going to be more pricey per item than IMP. But it can cater to short runs and rapid development because a new design is as fast as carving a new master and covering it with rubber.

Now, as for the price of a build, I suppose it all depends on how much you think needs correcting with AM, and how deep your pockets are. I tend to make my own choices, and personally I baulk at the idea of doubling the price of the base kit with AM stuff. (I don't bother with metal tracks, or getting all the available PE or resin sets for a kit...) If I think a kit needs help my first impulse is to reach for the Evergreen, only grabbing AM parts if they are cheap or really useful. (I don't count stowage items and figures - these are generally items that I pick up on the cheap at shows or on Evilbay with no special build in mind.) And if I think AM is really necessary to fix a kit I'll try to hunt it down on sale - or I might just pass up on the kit until a better one gets released.

If a "pro" modeller wants to write a book about how they threw lots of cash at a project, that's fine by me - I just keep on building what I like the way I like it, within my own personal budget and skill levels. (Some of Steve Zaloga's builds in his books are quite pricey, if you add up all the AM and spare kits he uses along the way...) And as I don't enter contests, I really don't care how much the "winners" are spending to get their trophies. But that's just me - your mileage may vary!

At the end of the day it's just a hobby, with fragile plastic toys, so I'm not gonna get too stressed about it.


PS: I've had the good fortune to snare a number of review samples over the years, but these have been more than paid back in terms of my time to build/review them. And frankly most of what I've reviewed has been self-purchased. Just thought I'd state it for the record.

Thanks Tom...

I appreciate your input.

However, the 'tone' of my antagonistic fellow modeler (see we spell it this way) was way out of line for what I was saying. Unless he is one of those who either has deep pockets or gets his AM parts some other way, he had no right to b-i-t-c-h me out like he did.

Quite frankly, I am getting sick of people like him.

I had a different opinion to what you described, called you out on your assumptions and that's being antagonistic. My tone was completely in line with yours, "get off your high horse" isn't antagonistic of course.

As for Tom's post I thought it summed up exactly my points regarding costs but I guess you want to see it differently.

I have every right to my opinion and to disagree with yours but if you want to see that in terms of how you put it, b-i-t-c-h you out, that's your problem.

If you can't accept people disgreeing with what you say and call you out on such opinions I suggest you don't post such statements in the first place.

As Tom rightly said "At the end of the day it's just a hobby, with fragile plastic toys, so I'm not gonna get too stressed about it."

This fellow modeller (see I spell it this way because its the right way) has neither deep pockets or ways of getting parts cheap unless you count Ebay.

By the way and I doubt if you'll even consider this judging by the way you wish to see my posts, but going back to your first post about including costs for all these extras, certainly in publications such as books, its possibly left out not to upset or deceive you, but the book may be published and available in different countries with differing local prices for these items, or as the book may be available for a long period of time they could also become out of date hence the reason for leaving them out.

Hi Alan, as a transplanted New Yorker, I relate to Heinlein's waiter character in Glory Road when he responded:

"Yes I speak English, and I understand American too."

I just wanted to say as a contributer to the site. All of my reviews were kits I purchased myself as are most of the reviews that are added to the website. Ask anybody the free samples aren't many and most of the time its am not kits. I don't get paid for my time either nor do any of the other reviewers. Most of us are out of pocket. But its not about the money its trying to inspire people to keep the hobby alive. I welcome you to join the group builds have some fun and you will see there are lots of ways to get around that price issue