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The Draft
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 03:35 AM UTC
Question of the moment "Should the United States reinitiate the peacetime draft?"
m1garand
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 03:39 AM UTC
At this point, I don't see a need. If we get more involved in other operations, then yes.
Sabot
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 03:48 AM UTC
No, I hate to see some of the folks forced into service. The forces should improve retention.
slodder
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 03:49 AM UTC
I agree with m1garand. At this point I believe we have enough volunteers to fill the bill. At the point we don't - then institue it.
That point shouldn't be when we need to ship X odd thousands of troups whereever and we don't have'em. We need to plan well and make sure that our overall strategy for military deployment accomodates the troop levels we carry.
GunTruck
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 05:06 AM UTC
I'd say no right now too.

I'm trying to make contact to see about returning to the military myself - the Air Force Reserve - but appears that the recruiters have more volunteers than they know what to do with...

Gunnie
Greg
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 05:11 AM UTC
In a word, no. We don't need it and probably never will again. Wars in the future will look more like Somalia, Kosovo, and Afghanistan than Normandy, Okinawa, and Inchon. There isn't anyone on the planet that can stand up against a US heavy armored division, let alone a corps with one of those and a mech infantry division. They may take months to get somewhere, but once there they will devastate any mechanized force they engage. Iraq was the last time the world is likely to see mass armored battles, unless things get hot over Kashmir.

You need a draft to support multi-million man force structures, and there's no threat out there to justify that. Not since WW2. US taxpayers certainly won't accept the taxes and economic dislocation to support such a force, and the rest of the world would look on it and be very uneasy.

A volunteer force is enough, and it should get lighter and more mobile in the future. We will need to put troops on the ground faster in the future, elite infantry supported by LIGHT armor and helos. We don't need to build follow-on M1s or enormous SP artillery pieces. Keep it light and air-transportable. Just my .02....
Greg
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 05:53 AM UTC
Well said Greg, I also don't think that America is ready to live like the Isreali's do every day of their lives. They just won't do it until it becomes absolutely necessary.
I dated an Isreali school teacher for awhile back in the 80's, she told me some rather shocking things as an American. Very quickly, she told me that whenever they were scheduled for a 'school outing' they were required by state law to be issued weapons (Uzi's) and their traffic plan filed with the local authorities. So, you have teachers on the school bus armed with fully gobbed Uzi's riding 'shotgun' on a bunch of 6 to 9 year olds for protection!! Additionally, if they were caught not carrying the weapons the would be arrested.
Food for thought.

Tread.
Greg
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 06:18 AM UTC
Ya know Tread, I used to be a teacher once upon a life, and I once played with an Army career through ROTC. The idea of mixing the two, packing my M16 on a field trip to the Art Museum or whatever, is not pleasant to contemplate. I mean, it was tough enough keeping the weapon secure enough for the approval of the DI's. I can't imagine trying to keep it secure from a bunch of nine year olds, while also trying to manage them. Or having the presence of mind to get them to cover in the event of a firefight breaking out in the sculpture gallery. Hell, I wasn't competent or mature enough to lead trained soldiers who knew how to react by virtue of training! I'd be less than worthless with a busload of kids in that scenario.
I agree, Americans aren't ready to live that way yet thank God. And we have no need to. Despite the horrors of 9/11, this continent is still pretty damn secure. Our bubble of invincibility has been pricked, but we are still lightyears from having to accept a mentality that this run to the grocery store could be my last. And to bring it back around to topic, a draft wouldn't help much. There are soldiers everywhere in Israel, and the baby bombs keep going off. Proof enough to me that sheer numbers of heavily armed guys with stern expressions isn't the way to go....
Greg
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 06:19 AM UTC
Follow-up point. We currently have the Army committed to the Balkans (a brigade there, one just returning, and one preparing to go equals one division tied up), we have a battalion in ther Sinai, two division facing North Korea, and one in Afghanistan. We started with ten divisions now we have maybe six available. The manpower pool is dwindling, the obligations grow. How do you meet the end strength requirements if not through the draft?
DJ
Greg
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 06:26 AM UTC
Tough question, DJ. A quick answer is decrease the obligations somehow. I think we need to be in all those places, but Korea is a place to pare down. Really, our force there i more of a tripwire to prevent the South from going North than the other way around. We could redeploy some folks form there. And the current force in Kuwait and Iraq is also probably too large. Saddam isn't going to try that trick again, and in any event our friends in the neighborhood are better prepared themselves. Fact is, we're going to have to decide where to garrison and where to clean house and leave the garrison work to allies covered by our air assets. My comments about "lightening" the force dovetail here too---increase the tooth-to-tail ratio and you generate more deployable battalions. But obviously the decisions are hard ones...
Greg
Sabot
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 10:39 AM UTC
We do what Ronald Reagan started and rebuild our standing Army. Increase retention incentives, increase recruiting numbers and add back the divisions we lost. This is mainly a boots on the ground problem, no new weapons systems, but soldiers, airmen, Marines and sailors are needed to curb the OPTEMPO.

I know in the 90s, my 4 years in the 1st Cav wore me out. I did 4 NTC rotations and a 4 month deployment to Kuwait along with a trip to JRTC. Oh yeah, and every summer but the one I went to Kuwait during was spent conducting TAM evaluations for either 49th AD units or whatever roundout(up) unit was associated with the brigade. Luckily I left the division just before my last unit went to Kuwait with a follow on trip to Bosnia. Any soldier who signed up for a 6 year tour about the time I arrived there would have been burned out.

It's even worse now since we lost a couple of divisions after I left. We need more active infantry divisions. These don't need a big mix of armor, just 3 brigades with 2 mech battalions and one tank battalion per brigade. It will only take more people (which equals more units) to alleviate the OPTEMPO. This will increase retention. Four years in the Cav made my 3 years in Germany during the height of the Cold War seem like a vacation.
mj
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 01:19 PM UTC
I see nothing wrong with the citizens of a democracy being trained to defend it. Being required to defend it should go without question.

Mike

Sabotshooter
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 01:58 PM UTC
Oh boy, what a can of worms this is. I've read intelligent arguements for both sides of the coin here. Unfortunately I am looking at this from the prospective of where the "trackpad hits the street", so I am slightly biased. Before anything like a draft is reinstituted we need to "untie" the leaders' hands of today's army. We need to go back to the roots of being a soldier, and get away from this "touchy/feely" military. On average only 50-75% of the soldiers I've seen come in lately have been worth anything. I've seen too many dirt bags get second chances and it take damn near an act of God to kick someone out. Mind you all these kids raised their right hand and took an oath. Now mix in the percentage of people who don't want to be there and the headache multiplies. I do agree though that it is a young man's moral obligation to serve his country in some way, but unless needed do not force someone into a place they don't want to be.

Stephen
Greg
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 10:21 PM UTC
Rob--getting divisions back through retention incentives sounds good. But the force structure you propose of two mech battalions and one armor might not be what we want. We have divisions so structured. How about a pair of true motorized light infantry divisions with heavy wheeled vehicles for both APC and fire support use? Isn't that what the Stryker vehicle is all about? I'm a little fuzzy on current procurement, so forgive me. All I am suggesting is that a lighter, track-less force might be just as mobile in most environments, just as survivable in low intensity operations, and far easier and faster to deploy. I'm sure this will touch off a little fire here! Remember, I'm just a very interested civilian bill-payer who has no branch affiliation to champion--merely questions on where my money goes.
Greg
Ranger74
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 10:26 PM UTC
My views are mixed. I was a platoon leader at the end of the last draft period (and beginning of the infamous VOLAR). It was just as the Army was expanding to 18 active divisions. The problems we had with low education levels, drugs, etc., negated a good portion of the additional strength. I and my NCOs spent more time dealing with "troubled" soldiers than with training. We do not need a draft, what we need are better retention incentives. We are spending all kinds of money getting new soldiers, but very little on retaining the ones we have trained As for forces overseas, we are now relying heavily on the ARNG and USAR for duty in the Balkans, I know, my unit has processed many of them thru Ft. Benning. I started in the Army Reserve in 1987 and we were barely recognized as existing. I or members of the units to which I have been assigned have been mobilized a half dozen times since Clinton got us into the Balkans in '95. I now have 56 MPs on active duty at Ft. Benning because of 911. The US military is over-extended when the reserve components are pulling as many deployment days as the active component. DJ - I thought only the 2nd ID was watching North Korea, who else is over their? Ramble -OFF #:-)

Jeff
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 10:46 PM UTC
I Hate to break the news to you folks "BUT" The So-Called Draft is already in place it called Mandatory Sign UP to anyone who turns 18 if not then that person stands to loose alot . i.e Will not receive Govt Loans, And A bunch of other things other things that the Govt has stipulated that can be done to anyone who fails to do so. i.e. When a young man turns 18 he has to go to his local post office and register for active duty in the military. Weather he gets called up or not does not matter. Either way. He still has to do it OR ELSE... Now I don't know about you But that sounds alot like a draft to me. Weather that it what they choose to call it or not. Is a whole different issue. BUT the FACTS stand for themselves. HEY I though that we lived in a democracy!!

DAGGER-1" When Science Fails, Brute Force Wins"
Sabot
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 11:06 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Rob--getting divisions back through retention incentives sounds good. But the force structure you propose of two mech battalions and one armor might not be what we want. We have divisions so structured. How about a pair of true motorized light infantry divisions with heavy wheeled vehicles for both APC and fire support use? Isn't that what the Stryker vehicle is all about? I'm a little fuzzy on current procurement, so forgive me. All I am suggesting is that a lighter, track-less force might be just as mobile in most environments, just as survivable in low intensity operations, and far easier and faster to deploy...

Actually, what I was referring to when I talked the mech and tank battalions was using the new organizations (Styrker-based) and not the old Abrams/Bradley-based ones. Bottomline is that when we went to the M2 Bradley, we decreased the size of the infantry squad. We also decreased the size of the infantry battalion by one company. So the infantry battalion of today is much smaller (manpower wise) than the infantry battalion of 10+ years ago. These are the guys taking the brunt of the OPTEMPO and fighting.
Greg
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 11:08 PM UTC
Registration for the Selective Service Act isn't quite the same as the draft itself, Dagger-1. I was among the first to be required to sign up when it was revived two decades ago. And I don't have a problem with denial of student loans to those who evade that law. Sure, you have the right to be a conscientious objector. No problem. But society also has a right to limit your dip into the public trough if you choose to do so. Everything has its price, because this is a democracy. Draft registration is a way to manage a manpower pool in case it is needed in the future. Barring another conflict of the magnitude of WW2, I doubt that it will be needed--but I don't mind having it in place just in case.
Greg
Bravo-Comm
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 11:19 PM UTC
Dont Get me wrong Greg . I'm no C.O. And I did serve in the Armed Forces 1980-84. And
had no problem with it. And I dont mind that we need people to be prepared if nessacary. BUT to me Manditory Registration sounds alot like a form of draft if you ask me. And Besides we have plenty of Foriegn Nationals living off of free loans and such, So why should we deprive our own young men the same rights as them. BY the way, Just how many F.N do you thinkare going to JOIN OUR MILITARY for OUR COUNTRY. When they don't have to. When they are living here on an extended Visas's. THIS I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH.. How conveiant for them!! It sort of makes the M.R pretty much useless does'nt it??!!
I love my country. And dont want to see it sold down the river to other people living here free of charge while our own Govt denies those rights and priviledges to our our young men and women. What's wrong with this picture??

DAGGER-1
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 11:32 PM UTC
I don't think reinstituting the military draft is a good idea. What I do think is a good idea is to make it mandatory for college students attending a campus that has a ROTC program to enroll for the first two years as a basic course, non-contracted cadet. That would be enough to teach young adults the basics of workings on the military. It would also make it an easier transition if the draft is ever brought back .

Cheers,

CDT Reimund Manneck
U.S. Army ROTC
Greg
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 11:39 PM UTC
Dagger-1: Lots wrong with that picture--no argument here. Dealing wih it, however, is different. Belongs in a new thread!

Rob: My ignorance strikes again! We are in total agreement about the new, lighter force structure. I wasn't aware of the thinning out as a result of fielding the M2/3 family. Maybe OK for WW3 in Germany, but not for today. Absolutely, we need to get the squad back up to size and add in that infantry company again. If we can do that we buy ourselves a lot. I imagine there are a lot of places where the presence of a single company of infantry would be appropriate--and they could handle the job if the manpower level was sufficient. Lose the pseudo-tanks, bring back the living breathing troops and the brains that are organic to them.
Greg
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 11:55 PM UTC
Thanks Greg,SORRY did not mean to get carried away on a tangent or tare. I just get riled up about that subject. ANYWAY: I agree with the idea/ Concept the we as a nation NEED more MANPOWER, And as to equipment I have to admit that I do not know enough about that subject to offer a resonable idea. So I will leave that up to you guys with the more experience and knowledge. BUT certainly in my opinion, JUST because the COLD WAR is over does Not mean nor did it give our Govt the right to down play our military and its vital members, As it did. I thought that we had learned our lessons from both WW-1 and WW-2 when we had to completely rebuild our antiquaited system in order to met a new and more
terrible threat. And now we stand on the door steps of another VERY DIFFERNT TYPE of WARFARE. Just about completely unprepared and mostly out numbered than ever. I THINK SOME people need to wake the --- up and do what ever is nesscacary to rebuild our nations military might back to the same level if not better when the old saying was: SPEAK SOFTLY BUT CARRY A BIG STICK, And the other nations trembled at the very idea of an AMERICAN landing on thier shores to kick some ones A--.

DAGGER-1
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 12:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

My views are mixed. I was a platoon leader at the end of the last draft period (and beginning of the infamous VOLAR). It was just as the Army was expanding to 18 active divisions. The problems we had with low education levels, drugs, etc., negated a good portion of the additional strength. I and my NCOs spent more time dealing with "troubled" soldiers than with training. We do not need a draft, what we need are better retention incentives. We are spending all kinds of money getting new soldiers, but very little on retaining the ones we have trained As for forces overseas, we are now relying heavily on the ARNG and USAR for duty in the Balkans, I know, my unit has processed many of them thru Ft. Benning. I started in the Army Reserve in 1987 and we were barely recognized as existing. I or members of the units to which I have been assigned have been mobilized a half dozen times since Clinton got us into the Balkans in '95. I now have 56 MPs on active duty at Ft. Benning because of 911. The US military is over-extended when the reserve components are pulling as many deployment days as the active component. DJ - I thought only the 2nd ID was watching North Korea, who else is over their? Ramble -OFF #:-)

Jeff



Jeff--the current location of US Army division is no secret, so I am not divluging anything about guarded National Security matters. In the Pacific, you have the 2nd Infantry with two brigades in Korea and one (now transforming into the Interim Brigade Combat Team IBCT) at Fort Lewis. The other Pacific division is the 25th Infantry in Hawaii with two brigades and the third at Fort Lewis, Washington. The Lewis brigade is also transforming into the IBCT. In Europe you have the !st Infantry and 1st Armored each with two brigades while their respective third brigades' are at Fort Riley, Kansas. In the US, we have the 3rd Infantry at Fort Stewart, Georgia and their third brigade at Fort Benning, Georgia. At Fort Hood, Texas, you have the three brigades of the 1st Cavalry (the best in the Army) and two brigades of the 4th Infantry. Their third brigade is at Fort Carson along with the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment. At Fort Bragg, North Carolina is the 82nd Airborne with three brigades while Fort Campbell, Kentucky has the three brigades of the 101st Airborne. I think that is everyone. We also have five active (1,3, 5,7, and 10th) Special Forces Groups and three Rangers Battalions. As my Brother In Arms, Rob, correctly pointed out, you kinda get run ragged real quick doing housekeeping, training, and deployments. Hope this assist in the discussion.
DJ
Greg
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Posted: Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 12:49 AM UTC
Question: Why is the 25th ID still sojourning in sunny Hawaii? Hardly a place that needs two brigades. I submit that they probably do not need to be forward-based there to respond to trouble in Korea, either. Ft. Lewis would do fine, if deployed by air from McChord to pick up prepositioned equipment in ROK. So, why have them in Hawaii? Other than NK, I see no potential threat in WestPac that a single division there would either deter or be an adequate response for. Nobody in the Philippines; down under covered by the Commonwealth nations in the region. Just thinking....

Who is at Knox these days; just training units?
Greg
Sabot
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Posted: Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 02:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

My views are mixed. I was a platoon leader at the end of the last draft period (and beginning of the infamous VOLAR). It was just as the Army was expanding to 18 active divisions. The problems we had with low education levels, drugs, etc., negated a good portion of the additional strength. I and my NCOs spent more time dealing with "troubled" soldiers than with training. We do not need a draft, what we need are better retention incentives. We are spending all kinds of money getting new soldiers, but very little on retaining the ones we have trained As for forces overseas, we are now relying heavily on the ARNG and USAR for duty in the Balkans, I know, my unit has processed many of them thru Ft. Benning. I started in the Army Reserve in 1987 and we were barely recognized as existing. I or members of the units to which I have been assigned have been mobilized a half dozen times since Clinton got us into the Balkans in '95. I now have 56 MPs on active duty at Ft. Benning because of 911. The US military is over-extended when the reserve components are pulling as many deployment days as the active component. DJ - I thought only the 2nd ID was watching North Korea, who else is over their? Ramble -OFF #:-)

Jeff



Jeff--the current location of US Army division is no secret, so I am not divluging anything about guarded National Security matters. In the Pacific, you have the 2nd Infantry with two brigades in Korea and one (now transforming into the Interim Brigade Combat Team IBCT) at Fort Lewis. The other Pacific division is the 25th Infantry in Hawaii with two brigades and the third at Fort Lewis, Washington. The Lewis brigade is also transforming into the IBCT. In Europe you have the 1st Infantry and 1st Armored each with two brigades while their respective third brigades' are at Fort Riley, Kansas. In the US, we have the 3rd Infantry at Fort Stewart, Georgia and their third brigade at Fort Benning, Georgia. At Fort Hood, Texas, you have the three brigades of the 1st Cavalry (the best in the Army) and two brigades of the 4th Infantry. Their third brigade is at Fort Carson along with the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment. At Fort Bragg, North Carolina is the 82nd Airborne with three brigades while Fort Campbell, Kentucky has the three brigades of the 101st Airborne. I think that is everyone. We also have five active (1,3, 5,7, and 10th) Special Forces Groups and three Rangers Battalions. As my Brother In Arms, Rob, correctly pointed out, you kinda get run ragged real quick doing housekeeping, training, and deployments. Hope this assist in the discussion.
DJ


DJ, you only list 9 divisions here, you missed the 10th (literally), the 10th Mountain Division at Ft. Drum, NY which is basically a light infantry division. There is also the remnants of the old 9th ID (Motorized) reflagged as the 2nd ACR (Light) at Ft. Polk, LA. They are mainly an OPFOR for the JRTC training area at Polk. Additionally the old 177th Armored Brigade that was the NTC OPFOR at Ft. Irwin, CA was reflagged as the 11th ACR. (Oh how the mighty have fallen.)

As far as who's at Ft. Knox, I believe the last MTOE unit was DJ's old unit when the 197th Armored Brigade pared down to a task force (TF 1-10). I thought they closed up shop and all that is left at Ft. Knox is the Armor School's 15th Cavalry Regiment (just a training unit).