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Modeling in General
General discussions about modeling topics.
Rant: Women and scale modeling?
communityguy
#280
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 07:50 AM UTC
I have just sent the following message to AK Interactive, Weathering Magazine, and Mig Jimenez. I am posting it here as well as a means of sparking discussion, debate, and thought. Your comments are welcomed, but I ask of all of us to keep a cool head and elevated, respectful discussion.

I'd love to hear your POV.

-------------

To whom it may concern:

My name is Jake McKee, and I'm a 38 year old male. Last year, I returned to the scale modeling hobby after many, many years away. I've been excited to see how many new and amazing products are on the market and how companies like AK and modelers like Mig have really skyrocketed the quality, creativity, and opportunities for fun since I've been gone. The fun I remember having 20 years ago is double nowadays!

As the father to an extremely creative 6 year old daughter, I've been working to expose her to the hobby and she's shown a great deal of interest. As most kids are, both at her age and older, she's always looking for the females in the situations around her. At the model shows, club meet ups, or at the hobby shops, there are…of course… not many women and even fewer girls. Despite not having any gender connection, she's still showing a great deal of interest in learning the craft…which if you know about young kids development, you know that this is a big thing in many ways.

She was recently asking me about various weathering techniques I'd been trying out and after verbally trying to explain them to her, I paused, grabbed my iPad and opened issue #1 of Weathering Magazine. When this transpired, I hadn't even looked at the magazine myself yet. After flipping a few pages, I found myself looking at a scantily clad woman holding a gun to promote….. uh…. modeling? AK products? Before I knew it, any conversation about modeling has evaporated and we were instead talking about gender issues.

My question to you is a simple one: What value, business or fan engagement, is derived out of including half dressed women in your advertising/content?

Our hobby is a niche. A relatively small niche in the world. We see fewer and fewer new modelers every day, and fans grow out of the hobby in an increasingly faster rate. We, as a collectively interest group, should be doing everything, and I mean everything to encourage new people, male AND female to join this hobby. It's good for the hobby, it's good for us as individuals, and it's very good for the health and sustainability of YOUR businesses! Hobby shops are barely making it by and online businesses are succeeding, but just barely, and failing just as much. This is, in large part, due to the size of the potential buyer base. In this environment, I should never, ever have to think twice about showing your magazine, or any other form of content to anyone, especially a massive untapped audience.

If any of you have daughters, you've almost certainly faced questions from her or to yourself about how far she can go in life and what restrictions society may place on her dreams as a woman. You've almost certainly gotten mad when you see overt sexism or underlying threads of it, at work or at play. I work in the computing industry and I'm ashamed of how my industry has largely shunned or flat out chased off women who are interested in learning and joining the industry. It's not good for them or for any of the rest of us.

As a scale modeler, and as an active online and offline member of the modeling community, I want us to do better than other parts of society. Just because our hobby has been male dominated for decades doesn't mean we have to accept that. And we certainly don't have to encourage that. And we certainly don't have to create clear and present reasons for women and girls to turn away.

I would ask you to rise above and make our hobby a place where we are never, ever ashamed to invite our female family and friends, or think twice about showing them any of our content. I would ask you to think about the damage you do to the reputations of us all as a group and as individuals when you use "sex" to try to sell modeling tools. I would ask you think about how much more successful your own businesses would be when you work harder to open up this hobby to the other 50% of the planet's population.

Will you reconsider your decision to include this kind of imagery in Weather Magazine #4? I look forward to sharing that issue with my daughter without having her ask me anything other than questions about modeling techniques.

Thank you very much for your time,
Jake McKee
bronzey
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 08:04 AM UTC
Jake,

Hat off to you, im with you on this. I'm 25 and have 4 sons, aged 1 to 8. My 5 and 8 year old are showing interest and im happy about that. I also noticed the women in AK's mags, now don't get me wrong I love a nice hot girl just as much as the next 25 year old BUT, there is a time and a place, my modelling is my escape from women! Lol but on a serious note I wouldn't let my boys see these mags because of these women, shame on you AK!

Bronzey
Jessie_C
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 08:19 AM UTC
THANK you! I'd love to see what your daughter can build
Tojo72
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 08:37 AM UTC
I have to agree with you guys,I have refrained from buying the magazine because of this issue.

I am not going to get on a soap box or rant,it's only my opinion,if that's what AK wants then fine.There are a lot of other magazines out there.I will still buy their products.I will however continue to avoid the magazine,unless it changes.
retiredyank
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 08:40 AM UTC
Mig_Jimenez
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 08:49 AM UTC
Oh My God! This was my reaction after read your post. Sorry.

I am now with flu, and with little fever and not with good health to reply this, but I want to stop this tread as soon as possible because I can imagine in which direction it could go.
So, my apologies if my english is not as good as you would like to expect.

Well, I am 39 years old.... Spanish...and with a 7 years old son.

After explain that, will give you my thoughts.

1) First all, I am not interested in the education of the childrens of this world. Don't missunderstand me!!. there are better people to do that. I am not who decide what to show them or not. I have show all photos of the Akatsiya girl to my son, and I explained him with naturality. Nothing terrible happened. But my son is not interested in weathering and either adult girls. But he know what I do my job.

2) Seems obvius that your culture and mine are very different. I have not problems if cocacola try to sell me his beverage by using a cute girl. This kind of spots are visible 24hours day in TV, also for your daughter. Except if you turn off the TV (You can also close the magazine).

3) I don't recomend you The weathering magazine for a 6 year old girl interested in modelling. there are better stuff for that. TWM is a very specific and specialiced magazine for advanced modellers.

4) I don't use sex for sell tools or paints or books. I use the image of a professional model girl to introduce each subject of each magazine, in a very respectful way.

5) I am the creator and developer of almost all Mig productions paints, oils, pigments filters, and more, plus creator of all new AK range, and I NEVER USED sex or girls to sell these products. I produced just a good product and I teached how to use it. The magazine is ONLY ONE thing that I produce now, and if I include a girl inside is because only one reason: I like girls as much as modelling. Fortunatly my girlfriend know that and help me in my job.
When we decided to make the TWM, I decided to mix both concepts in one. Why to use a real male modeller to introduce the MUD or RUST or CHIPPING if I can use a nice girl?

I thought, if I like girls, maybe the others will like the same combination.
I doens't search for more fame , or extra sales, or prestige or ...any other thing. I can get all of these things from my books, DVDs , paints...etc. The magazine is for me a dream, a scape, a place where put funny ideas and make happy many modellers. The magazine is not a bussiness for me, just the ONLY funny thing in AK Interactive. And looking how it is selling (each issue more and more) looks like many people share my concept of modelling sourrunded by something nice. Anyway, for your information, the cost of the photo session of that girl plus all 3D work and digital retouching cost us a big ammount, difficult to recovery with the magazine sales. It is veryyyyy expensive.

I know maybe some people will disagree, and maybe some other disspointed or upset. But I am not forcing anyone to buy it. I cannot do something which can be perfect for everybody. I just do different things.

If you want only techniques, I recomend you the FAQ2 book. Without girls, just pure modelling.
But the purpouse of the TWM is to provocate a smile in modellers while they discover how to paint some effects. Just for fun... as the one I have when we prepare the ideas in our graphic department.


6) Finally, I am not the responsable or leader to push new generations into the modelling. I am just a humble modeller...with some ideas about weathering, and with a dream: To share what I have learn with others. I like to teach. Many people who know me from different seminaries around the world know how focus I am teaching others. But you cannot make me responsable of the future of the modelling. I try to do my best...in my way. At this stage of my life, I decided to do that crazy idea of the "The weathering magazine!". And now I have seen it is a big sucess, bigger than I tought. Thousand of people support that concept of magazine, because is fresh , funny and new.

7) Finally the good news for you: I can walk in you shoes...of course. I understand why you sent me this message. And I understand that your comment is very constructive, respectful and gentle. I understand that maybe due your social envoirement you cannot feel proud of that, and there are many conservative people who don't like this kind of stuff. I was born in an ultra conservative family and society. So,...again, I understand you very well. This is why I get this time to reply you with this long letter. You deserve a good and complete explanation. But please...this have nothing regarding selling something with sex or not. It is just for fun. It cost me a lot of money and I don't recovery the big investiment. But it is my dream...I wake up very happy each day thinking about the next issue of the magazine and how to adapt the girl to the subject. People who have the 3 issues will understand this very well. But if you still thinking it is not good for you, just don't buy it. You are free. Choose what is the correct thing for you and your family. Then you will be a good man.Don't do anything against your principles or way of life. I do the same, this is why I made that, and I will continue doing that in the next issues.

And finally:

The ISSUE 4 about engines and oil will contain a big, big surprise. This time...good for modeller's wifes!!! (not for 6 years old little girls, of course)

And, thanks to your message, I will include from the issue 5: "content not apropiated for childrens under 14 years old".
I hope it can help to fathers like you to avoid problems with childrens.

Thank you and I hope my explanation can help you to undersatnd me. Anyway, if you have more questions, please, ask me.

Thank you
Removed by original poster on 03/26/13 - 21:00:25 (GMT).
Jessie_C
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 09:09 AM UTC
There's a great deal of sexism in the modelling industry. You can see that through the products (anime figures, anyone?), the trade show booth bunnies and the attitudes of many hobbyists and manufacturers. You need to ask yourself if you're happy being part of the problem or want to be part of the solution.

The problem in this situation is that by using women the way you do, you reveal that you consider women to be objects to ogle, that you do not respect us for the persons we are. Your personal feelings aren't in consideration here; your actions are, and your actions are what tell us the message we see. This makes any women who could potentially buy your products think twice about it.

I don't know of any hobby producer who is so rich in customers that they don't mind driving away half their potential buyers. Think about it. While there aren't many of us actually in the hobby, we often have husbands and boyfriends who are, and we often buy things for them. But if we get turned off by your presentation, we're going to buy from your competitors instead.

It's all about respect. You respect your customers and we'll respect you.
staff_Jim
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 09:12 AM UTC
All,
I removed my last comment as I was trying to answer (to some degree) for Mig and AK. Since Mig has taken some time to write and answer and post it here on Armorama I didn't think my response was needed or more accurately balanced considering I hadn't yet read Mig's reasoning (we were both writing at the same time). I agree with some of it and respect his position just as I think there is nothing wrong with Jake's bringing it up. This is all about opinions after all and most certainly in this situation there is not really a 'correct' one. In the end I think we can all agree that bringing more women into the hobby is a noble goal. However if the practical side of my brain is allowed to comment I would have to admit that is a REALLY big hill to climb.

Best wishes,
Jim

retiredyank
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 09:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text

There's a great deal of sexism in the modelling industry. You can see that through the products (anime figures, anyone?), the trade show booth bunnies and the attitudes of many hobbyists and manufacturers. You need to ask yourself if you're happy being part of the problem or want to be part of the solution.

The problem in this situation is that by using women the way you do, you reveal that you consider women to be objects to ogle, that you do not respect us for the persons we are. Your personal feelings aren't in consideration here; your actions are, and your actions are what tell us the message we see. This makes any women who could potentially buy your products think twice about it.

I don't know of any hobby producer who is so rich in customers that they don't mind driving away half their potential buyers. Think about it. While there aren't many of us actually in the hobby, we often have husbands and boyfriends who are, and we often buy things for them. But if we get turned off by your presentation, we're going to buy from your competitors instead.

It's all about respect. You respect your customers and we'll respect you.


I agree, wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, this is a trend(I suppose it has surpassed "trend") in marketing. Also, unfortunately, this type of marketing is precisely what women's lib groups are trying to overcome. You have to remember that, up until a hundred years or so ago, it was a man's world. I agree that it would be nice if these stereotypes were overcome. But, it will take time. The fact is, men prefer to buy something that is associated with a female beauty. This is partially due to instinct. Men wish to procreate with as many women as possible. This will ensure the survival of the species. The fact is, this must be taken with a grain of salt. The world is changing, but change takes time. I foresee this type of marketing being around for another 100 years, at least.
communityguy
#280
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 09:22 AM UTC
Jim, let me first reply to your comment first before I get to Mig's comment.

Sure it's a big hill to climb. What's that old saying about every journey starting with the first step? Most of the time, when I hear people refer to the difficulty as a way to dismiss (inherently or overtly) the issue at hand, it's really coded language for "this isn't an issue that concerns me". And if that's true for you, so be it. At least be honest about that.

I'm not saying that my position is "correct" any more than I'm saying that Mig's is "incorrect". I think the problem I'm seeing already in this thread, however, is that those opposed to what I'm saying (so far, you and Mig) are skipping straight past listening and considering and instead defending.

My only ask of all involved is for consideration. Not just from the more aspirational position (helping to involve women in the hobby), but from the practical one too. Our hobby loses members due to age and dark ages faster than we get them in. Do you honestly think that we'll have even half of the industry footprint we have today some years down the road if we don't start thinking about these things now?
Mig_Jimenez
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 09:27 AM UTC
Jake:

Your hobby is not loosing people. if you look to CHina, Poland, Russia and other big countries, there are a lot of new young modellers. Maybe in some countries is going down, but in other is growing up.
communityguy
#280
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 09:33 AM UTC
Mig,

First off, thanks for the time and participation in this thread. The fact that you're showing up is a good thing.

As someone who has been a community manager for a company dealing with a very similar demographic (google me if you're interested, I'm not going to post about it here) has what you deal with, I'm familiar with the position you find yourself in. But as one professional to another, let me advise that any post to the community, especially about an inherently loaded topic like this one, if your post starts off with a reference to not being healthy enough to reply, STOP TYPING.

I'm not sure I'm going to convince you or even you to to hear the points and problems of sexism, so let me focus instead on the business issues.

You are a businessman. Therefore, your focus needs to be, in some significant part, on how to drive and sustain and grow business. How you present yourself, especially inside such a small community, directly impacts those goals.

When you reply with such dismissiveness of not only my initial post, but to the others agreeing with me, you're telling us you don't value us, as colleagues or customers. That may not matter to you, and the impact of such an attitude may not be felt immediately. But when you need us to help support your business growth or changes or downturns, will we be there for you? That all depends on how you act for/towards us today.

I am reading and re-reading your post to make sure I understand your points, but please understand that any time I hear a business I spend a great deal of money with saying "buy or leave us alone, I don't care to hear what you say" (and be clear that this is the tone and message of your post), I immediately lose interest in supporting that business. I may continue to buy, but my buying patterns change significantly. That may not matter to you if your career is merely living out a dream, but I doubt your advertisers would agree. I doubt your colleagues at AK would agree.

There is no need to reply to this particular message, necessarily. I'm going to continue reading and considering and will post a follow-up to your points soon.

Again, thanks for participating. All I ask or hope for is listening and consideration.
raypalmer
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 09:50 AM UTC
It's lazy marketing. Just sloppy.

It's not criminal, but that's not a defence. You can in fact have a sexy ad without being totally crass. But this woman holding the gun? It's like your advertising agency consists of some thirteen year old boys.


Unimpressed with this business I must say.
staff_Jim
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 09:59 AM UTC
I actually can't spend more than 2 minutes on this post, as I have to go pick up my daughter from school, but here goes.

I think you all are being pretty silly in some regards. This *IS* a mostly men's hobby. Yes it would be great to have more women involved, but I could say the same thing about sci-fi stuff and guess what.. many of the women involved in that do 'sexy' stuff like cos-play and such. We live in the society we live in, not a fairy tale one. I don't know what is on the shelves of newsstands in your family grocery store, but I see many things like this:



Enough said by me.

Off to be dad.

Jim
collin26
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 10:12 AM UTC
Jake,
Please let me start by thanking you for sharing this opinion with us and for opening a healthy debate. I would like to share some information with you regarding this subject - information you would not have anyway of knowing.
We at AK Interactive have donated proceeds from the sales of issue #1 - #3 to a non-profit organisation in Connecticut USA for abused women and victims of domestic abuse as well as The Center for Reproductive Rights. Each of us are Husbands, Fathers, and Sons. Each of us here at AK Interactive have deep respect and admiration for the woman who work here at AK Interactive as well as the woman in our lives.
On the subject of woman in our lives, my wife is very active in the feminist community who builds Architectural Models and I have a 6 year old daughter who is an honor student in a gifted and talented program who loves to use my airbrush more than anything. She understands that beauty and art are not lost on the human form and that beauty and art are in the eye of the beholder.
I hope you can understand Miguel's point that each person will have different opinions about all aspects of life including gender issues and sexuality based on there cultural background. As a father, you know if something is appropriate for you -or- for your child. This is true of what a child may be exposed to in a mall, a television set, & print media. As my daughter is 6 years old, I feel trying to explain wars and violence ( the subject of many scale models ) just as delicate as issues of gender. As adults - this is our job. As fathers we all must work hard to create a healthy and realistic education for our children regardless of gender.
In issue #4 of TWM, you will see that our focus was never using any one gender to sell anything at all. It is education with a splash of entertainment. We sincerely hope that you will enjoy it. But please, if you are offended by these things, you do not have to buy or read TWM.
For Jessica, thank you for your input,. It is refreshing to see a female artist here participating. Please keep up the great work. Many are inspired by you I am sure, please keep up the excellent work.
rf1964
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 10:59 AM UTC
Hello

Next time Miguel put Mona Lisa in Ak magazine.

I do my part of my models in the factory that I work.
98% men that start to look at me as normal guy not some crazy platic men.
Reason: AK magazine nª 3
Yes some places (with all respect to women ) things remain the same.
Mind are hard to change, but they change.
And girls are need for this hobby, its proved that they see the colors better - (they are the other 2% in my work)

Rui


communityguy
#280
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 03:22 PM UTC
[quote]
So, my apologies if my english is not as good as you would like to expect.
[quote]

Your English is better than my Spanish!


Quoted Text


1) First all, I am not interested in the education of the childrens of this world. Don't missunderstand me!!. there are better people to do that.



No sir. No sir, there aren't. You are as responsible for addressing the problem as anyone else in the world. This statement has been used for many years in challenges bigger and smaller than this one to simply ignore it, dismiss it, and push the solutioning to someone else. You are a dad, and you have a responsibility (that I'm sure you take quite seriously) to teach your son how to be a respectful man, how to treat women correctly and as more than objects for our own gratification. We're are ALL responsible for that. If my daughter ever meets your son, my hope is that he looks at her as a valuable and interesting person, not a "hot girl". We are ALL in this together.


Quoted Text


I am not who decide what to show them or not.



If not you, then who?? Isn’t it YOUR magazine where YOU are talking about why YOU choose the images you did in the comments below?? Come on man…


Quoted Text


I have show all photos of the Akatsiya girl to my son, and I explained him with naturality. Nothing terrible happened.



Of course not. Let’s not be ridiculous. This isn’t about what he’ll do the instant you show him, it’s about how he (or any other boy or man) builds their internal thinking about what is acceptable and respectful when dealing with this. It’s not instant and it’s not based on one single thing.


Quoted Text


2) Seems obvius that your culture and mine are very different. I have not problems if cocacola try to sell me his beverage by using a cute girl. This kind of spots are visible 24hours day in TV, also for your daughter. Except if you turn off the TV (You can also close the magazine).



First of all, you dismiss me and the problem and those who agree that there is a problem by simply responding with “you can also close the magazine”. If you would take time to read AND consider my original post, you’ll see that I’m asking for


Quoted Text


3) I don't recomend you The weathering magazine for a 6 year old girl interested in modelling. there are better stuff for that. TWM is a very specific and specialiced magazine for advanced modellers.



Again, this isn’t about this ONE instance, or my 6 year old daughter specifically. It’s about how we, as a community, present ourselves. Imagine a woman interested in starting in the hobby picking up the magazine as a way to gather inspiration to start in the hobby and seeing the way “we” think of women in this community… do you think she’d be excited to ignore that and instead dig deeper?


Quoted Text


4) I don't use sex for sell tools or paints or books. I use the image of a professional model girl to introduce each subject of each magazine, in a very respectful way.



A professional model half dressed with her chest partially exposed is the same as a non-model half dressed with her chest partially exposed is the same as a non-model. Whether this is a professional model or not, is NOT the issue. Look, it’s all about the context. I am also a photographer and study photographers who shoot nudes and boudoir with great appreciation. But that activity isn’t brought over here, since it wouldn’t be contextually appropriate. People aren’t on this site to talk about nude photography.


Quoted Text


5) I am the creator and developer of almost all Mig productions paints, oils, pigments filters, and more, plus creator of all new AK range, and I NEVER USED sex or girls to sell these products. I produced just a good product and I teached how to use it.



And you’ve done a great job. I’ve spent A LOT of money on your stuff in the past ☺ As a business person, you have to ask yourself a simple business question:

“Is there a benefit to including half dressed women that outweighs the cost of doing so? “ (Where “benefit” is improved brand loyalty, increased sales/revenue, etc. and “cost” is lost business, missed customer acquisition opportunities, etc.)


Quoted Text



The magazine is ONLY ONE thing that I produce now, and if I include a girl inside is because only one reason: I like girls as much as modelling.



And as a business person, that’s a ridiculous and flawed strategy. I don’t care and don’t oppose what you LIKE … I oppose what it represents about me as a modeler when someone else picks it up and shows it to someone who doesn’t know me or us. We are a community, and communities have connections whether we like it or not. Watch the news: When a political party member, a single member, does something, it reflects on the entire party.

Whether you like it or not, you are a leader and a figurehead in our community. And as that famous line goes: With great power comes great responsibility. In all seriousness, think about the Spiderman storyline here…


Quoted Text


When we decided to make the TWM, I decided to mix both concepts in one. Why to use a real male modeller to introduce the MUD or RUST or CHIPPING if I can use a nice girl?



No, no, no. This is the WRONG question. WRONG WRONG WRONG.

The real questions is: Is there any reason to have a person of either gender holding a machine gun, wearing little clothing as a way to “introduce” an article about chipping a semi truck?



Quoted Text


I thought, if I like girls, maybe the others will like the same combination.



Great. But again, you’re missing my point entirely. I also like driving my sports car, spending time with my family, and gummi bears. This isn’t the place for those things either.


Quoted Text



Anyway, for your information, the cost of the photo session of that girl plus all 3D work and digital retouching cost us a big ammount, difficult to recovery with the magazine sales. It is veryyyyy expensive.



So you’re creating controversy, and adding content that (IMHO) has absolutely zero to do with generating sales, but is barring people from buying for that reason alone for what reason again….??

Quoted Text



I know maybe some people will disagree, and maybe some other disspointed or upset. But I am not forcing anyone to buy it. I cannot do something which can be perfect for everybody. I just do different things.



Stop, stop, stop. All I’m asking here is for you to HEAR me. I’m asking you not to defend, but to consider.


Quoted Text


But the purpouse of the TWM is to provocate a smile in modellers while they discover how to paint some effects. Just for fun... as the one I have when we prepare the ideas in our graphic department.



Fine, if that’s the case, that’s the case. I’m just trying to start a question for the improvement of our entire community. But if you’re going to say the quote above, at least be honest enough to say what you really mean: “But the purpose of the TWM is to provocate a smile in MALE modellers”. If that’s fine with you, then so be it. But at least acknowledge that you have little interest in welcoming “modelers”, both women and men.


Quoted Text


6) [[SNIP]]



I’m snipping this point because I can only respond by pointing to my points above.


Quoted Text


7) [[SNIP]]



I’m snipping this point mainly because I don’t understand it. I’m not a conservative in any form or fashion, and when you meet me in person (one day!) you’ll see I’m pretty low key. Again, my own opinions and comforts about nudity, the female form, etc. are NOT the point of this. Not at all, and if you are still thinking at this point that it is, please re-read… well… all of what I’ve written ☺


Quoted Text


The ISSUE 4 about engines and oil will contain a big, big surprise. This time...good for modeller's wifes!!!



Very timely! I’m waiting on an engine add-on kit to arrive as we speak!


Quoted Text


(not for 6 years old little girls, of course)



One last point of clarity: I’m not suggesting that I was trying to have my 6 year old read and use the techniques in TWM. My point was that whether my 6 year old daughter, my wife, my sister, or my female coworker, I don’t want to be ashamed or embarrassed about the content. This isn’t because all of those people are conservatives, but because I don’t want them to say “man, he’s part of a group that objectifies women!”

This isn’t about adding a disclaimer, this is about asking whether we, as a community gain ANY benefit out of objectifying women as part of the “fun”.

Thanks for reading this far ☺ Again, my request is for you to simply read, understand my position, and then consider it. Consider what is happening in the world, offline but especially online, with how women are treated in male dominated spaces. (If you don’t see the vileness that happens to women online in these spaces, you’re not paying any amount of attention) Ask yourself how YOU can help because we are ALL in a position to help and we ALL benefit from equality.
communityguy
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 03:23 PM UTC

Jim,

Why in the world am I being “silly” to hope that we can CHANGE the realities on the ground?

Just a few decades ago, people said “I think you are silly to think that women can be in positions of leadership”. People said “I think you are silly to think that there is any place for a woman outside of the home”. Not that long ago, people said “I think it’s silly to think that woman are smart enough to vote.”

It’s not silly to hope that this hobby could see a more equal gender split. It’s aspirational, certainly, but why is it “silly” to aspire to such a thing??

Are you not connecting that there are actual, tangible reasons why there aren’t many women in pursuits like modeling, sci-fi, and computing? As mentioned, I’ve been part of the tech industry for 20+ years. I’ve see women voice opinions in online discussions that have ended in multiple threats of brutal, physical violence towards her. I’ve watched many women (google “Kathy Sierra”) drop out of participating online at all because of the male dominated culture. I look at my daughter’s interest at her young age in math and science and construction and then looked around at the culture around us and seen that everything we message to her says “you’re not good enough” or “this isn’t for you”. And that includes TWM’s opening stories.

I’m with you though, this isn’t just about out. There’s Hot Rod Magazine, scantily clad pointlessness all around us. So why, in a small, changeable community wouldn’t we do better than the norm? Why don’t we step up as a community and reject the failings and say “We will do better”?

Why is it silly to think that just because it is doesn’t mean it always needs to be?
CMOT
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 05:40 PM UTC
The male brain is hard wired to notice the opposite sex for the most part, and as a CCTv operator I monitor this behaviour on a daily basis. If a woman walks along a street in a short skirt you see the effect that has on most males as it is normal human behaviour, you see males look back and take notice, I think you would find woman would be offended if we didn’t notice. My job means I am trained to notice people behaving in an unusual way and a male that ignores a scantily clad female would catch our attention. If women did not want to be noticed why would they stand around outside a club at 3am wearing 3 square inches of material in -10 temperatures usually resulting in a trip to A&E.

So what does that have to do with this discussion? Well our hobby regardless of what we as modellers would like is a predominately male interest and therefore if a manufacturer wants to draw our attention to something a scantily clad female will do that even if it is a conscious thought on our part or not. This results in the “Sex sells” train of thought which does work in some cases; if it didn’t work manufacturers of items like cars would not waste money on women dressed a certain way to drape themselves over their product.

Another possible part of the problem as you have seen it could be that Europeans are exposed a lot more to nudity, everything from magazines to adverts for even simple things like shampoo are advertised on TV by half naked figures both male and female. Even our newspapers have topless females in them and this has resulted in people certainly in Western Europe not taking as much notice or should that be commenting on nudity in advertisements. In the US I do not believe that you are exposed to this as much and so notice it more and question its inclusion.

The crux of your argument seems to be that the inclusion of a semi dressed female in a magazine or anywhere else for that matter devalues that woman specifically and women generally, or that you believe people who see you reading a magazine with a few semi dressed females in it will make people think of you in a certain way. If you had top shelf magazines all around the house I could see that but a modelling magazine I do not believe will cause you to be labelled. Your 6 year old daughter asking uncomfortable questions about it I could see as a problem but the simple answer to that is don’t let her look at a product with something like that in it and vet what she is looking at or exposed to which is your duty as a parent, instead buy a modelling magazine that is more in keeping with what you would wish your daughter to see and with any luck she will take greater interest in what the hobby is about rather than the specifics of the graphics in it.

In order that you know exactly where I stand on the matter; I have no real objection one way or the other but I see no real benefit to its inclusion in this magazine as it is not on the cover I believe and the inclusion of these images would not encourage or dissuade me in the purchase of this magazine.
duckdawgs
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 07:20 PM UTC
Mig, your magazine is awesome!!! Don't change a thing
markchis
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 07:40 PM UTC
Wow Jessica - you have the trade show booth bunnies COME to the UK here in England we dont have any of that!! but we do have plenty of old guys in raincoats that smell of wee wee at our shows !

Im with Jim and Roland - Mig dont change a thing !! This magazine is entirely devoted to weathering and effects. I don't care what advertising they use ? what does that matter - sex sells is oldest adage of the advertising industry.

In any case the model "Akatsya" that appears in the issues she like an icon for the AK magazine ! She is great I want her to stay - there is nothing remotely offensive about having a cute girl in the magazine !

Keep it coming Mig !!!

best
Mark

jeremiaha41
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Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - 07:51 PM UTC
Quote "4) I don't use sex for sell tools or paints or books. I use the image of a professional model girl to introduce each subject of each magazine, in a very respectful way."

Are you kidding? Be honest, Mig, you use the girls because to your male audience, sex sells. We are wired that way.

In the end, we all vote with our wallet.

Cita "4) No usar el sexo para vender o herramientas de pinturas o libros. Puedo utilizar la imagen de una joven modelo profesional para introducir cada tema de cada revista, de una manera muy respetuosa."

¿Es una broma? Sea honesto, Mig, se utilizan las niñas, porque a su público masculino, el sexo vende. Nos están conectados de esa manera.

Al final, todos votan con nuestra cartera.

 _GOTOTOP