I missed the workshop, at Nats, that dealt with this. Question is, what do judges look for in a build(1/35)?

The very short version is "the build" , then the finish, then the scope of difficulty or additions to the base kit.. As long as those additions do not have an adverse effect on the basic build.

A basic build completed flawlessly with a simple but high quality paint job will always beat a poorly completed super detailed sloppily painted model.

In theory a model without a base SHOULD score equally as one on a base, but a base lets judges manipulate the model and is a good idea for your sake.
That said the quality of the build feeds higher than the quality of the base.


The AMPS website has a very comprehensive judging guide and i am sure the ipms website has judging guides too

Mike

Hey Matt, in a word, quality. And that cover all aspects of the build. I got drafted to judge once and I didn't really care for it, every build has it's good and bad. They look for obvious things like gaps and knock out holes showing and not filled or covered. Glue runs and finger prints, untrimed attatchment points. Miss aligned parts and such. Paint jobs and decal positions and settings. So much stuff it drives me nuts. One thing I always took into consideration was the age of the modeler, (experiance). And also the quality of the kit if known. If you take a kit from the 60's and a newer kit, you can see the differance within it and the craftmanship that goes into bringing it up to par. We must remember that a model is a miniture of something real, so does it look like it was scaled down in reality or cobbled together. When you get into dio's and vign's, you open up a whole can of things. Besides the regular things they look for is the story. Does everything look like it interacts with the story? Ground work. These two are where dio builders get trounced alot. If you have to think about what the modeler is trying to show, then the story has failed. I remember one dio where there was one side of a large dio where troops were fighting it out and around the building was some civilians hanging laundry. Another was showing troops fighting it out again and on the other side they were showing guys reciving mail. Reality in miniture? Not very convincing if you see what I mean. As far as ground work goes, I've seen palm tree mixed with maples. Now that's more twilight zone than reality. Trees are alot of work and it shows very quickly how much time was spent throwing something together or how much went into it. Bark and roots are a must to create good trees. One dio I saw was spectacular but the trees just totaly destroyed this otherwise nice dio. They used a blue filter screen for the small branchs and then covered it with spices. The first problem was the artist forgot to paint the filter. Second, I've never seen a spice tree. One standard about your work that will never change is, you get out of it what you put into it. Puting leaves on a tree is a long and time consuming project in itself, but the finished tree looks great. Short cuts usually don't pay in modeling and judges see them when they stand out like that. Another thing I see alot of is figures in posses that just can't be done by humans. When I put a dio/vign together, the posses that I use will most likely be dramatic. One thing is to try and hold that position yourself. Taking into consideration the equipment and weight of it and the frozen moment in time. If I can put my body into that position, then realisticly so can my figure. There is always the exception like an explosion tossing a body about or falling down a steep slope. There was a fellow here on armorar who was just starting out in the dio area and he had a trooper jumping out of a half track. It was not where the trooper was in ambush or under fire, just jumping out to support a field gun crew firing. When you look at the height of the side of the half track you realize that under normal conditions he would not do that. About a 7 foot drop onto concrete. Pointed out to the fellow modeler, he took the constructive suggestion in tow and hopefully fixed it. So, with all things considered, it comes down to quality of work, story, and possibility of human movement. When you get to stand alone figures then obviously the demand of work goes into posses and painting. Not to say they are easier or less work. Every model takes work and research. It's always nice to win at a show, but I really don't care about winning or not anymore. Judges are human and prone to their likes and dislikes. At one AMPS show we had judges who went through the judges class and did a pretty good job overall. Problem was some of them were just 18 years old or so. I wonder how many experiance was there? I got knocked down because one said there was not enough detail on my weapons. A few modelers were taking it in stride with me (laughing in humor)about whether it was because I forgot the serrial numbers on the parts or the shade of the wooden stock wasn't just right in 1/35th scale. If you build for compitition, you have a hard road ahead of you. Figuring what a judge will like or not, you'll need a crystal ball and hope he/she didn't have an arguement that morning with their other half. As a judge you are supposed to leave your personal like and dislikes in the car. But, being human, well you know. Not to sound like a broken record (am I aging myself here or what) it all comes down to the quality of the finished art work.
I guess from what I wrote you'll be able to figure that I build dio/vign mostly and at this point in my life I build for fun, not awards. I can leave the awards for the newer modelers for encouragement to continue the hobby.

Two tiny words: Fit and Finish. The trick is those tiny words hold a lot of meaning.

Fit.
This is the basic building. Are there gaps? Sloppy gluing? Untrimmed flash? Holes where there shouldn't be? Misaligned parts? Wheels/treads all touch the ground evenly? Is the model symetrical? Does it look like one piece or something made up from a collection of pieces?

Finish.
This is paint and decals. Are there runs? Brush marks? Fingerprints? Ragged edges? Uneven coverage? Bare plastic visible? Overspray/overpainting? Silvered decals? Decals properly positioned? Visible repair work?

Only if all those criteria are properly met are such things as weathering and "does it look real?" considered.

And there was me thinking that all judges looked for was the name of one of their mates on the base.

SHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! You weren't supposed to say that! Now the IPMS will be sending their black helicopter models after you.

As it so happens, I just started on my pavehawk.

I think the biggest issue your going to find is that everyone has there favorites they look for...in the build...it might be the finish, the complexity of the build,subject, modeller...etc etc...there isn't one magic thing that will make sure you win an award...

This is where I prefer the AMPS judging criteria. Even if you happen to be someone who is very interested in one certain aspect of the model, the way the points are broken down doesn't let people do that. The only time that sort of thing could come into play is for the best-of awards, when you're looking at two models that both are excellent in terms of construction, finish, difficulty, etc.

Unfortunately, I will only ever be able to make IPMS Nats and JaxCon.

When it comes to modeling, I think there are may 3 classes of builders...

1. The Advanced Modeler Syndrome or AMS guys, who will go to the ends of the world to trick out their build with every known and some UNknown add-on part, and spend countless hours on the fit, finish, and details.

2. The "average" builder who wants to do a nice, clean build and maybe add a thing or two here and there...looks like P-51...must BE a P-51...!

3. The builder who wants to "replicate" and not "duplicate" a model of a Centurian, so that when finished, he/she can stand back and say, "yup, that's my model of a Centurian tank..." and people can look at it and say, "Yeo, sure is.."!

Where I have a problem is when I see judges pulling out their MAGNIFYING glasses to go over a model like they were looking over the long lost crown of King Tut...!!! I guess there must be a place for "extreme" model judging, its just that I think at times we are losing sight of the fact that even someone who has been building for many, many years, but does not add all the bits and pces of etch and resin, and spend hours and hours correcting the so called "errors" that all the "experts" point out on any givin kit, but misses out on a ribbon because he missed filling in an ejector pin mark underneath the fender...!!

Modeling is supposed to be an enjoyable past time and I see many "noobies" get pissed off at the level of judging sometimes. As long as the kit meats the basic requirements of clean, good paint, no extra glue lines and decals are clean, he should at LEAST receive an honourable mention for pete's sake...no...?

I agree mostly with the moderator's comments which are much the samer as mine. Contests can sometimes make or break a newcomer's expectations. He/she can learn from notes posted by the judges if this is part of the contest setup.

Lastly, I think this sort of rant got started because I had a Sci-Fi model that won a bronze award and the judge noted in his remarks that the weathering was a tad overdone. HUH...!!! How the heck would he know...?! When the awards were presented, he couldn't even pronounce the name of the vehicle, yet it was a Hasegawa kit and there was a FULL explanation of the fictional universe it was modeled from...!

as I said before, IMHO, modeling should be a form replication, NOT duplication. It's a "model" of the real thing and if it's got a few missing bits or the "dirt" is not "Real" enough...so what...!


Rant over

My first problem has always been the model clearly is NOT what the paperwork describes it as being.

One can build an 'out of the box' Tamiya Chieftain Mk.5 (we all know it isn't) but to change the mark number on the paperwork, paint it sand and call it a different mark, present a first class, flawless build job, win an award and I have a problem!

Surely FIRST of all it has to represent (reference material) what you say it is and not what the box or modeler 'thinks' it is.

Secondly, paints fade and weather and a judge better be careful when he states "it is different to the photos I have in my books".

If your going to split hairs as a judge, know your subject or keep quiet.

Awareness of the point and place in time the model is representing will alter the state of the paint.

Once the judges are CERTAIN the model is what it is "a representation of the real item", then the build can be judged.

I also do not like to see magnifiers, LED lights and dental mirrors being used to judge, unless it is in a runoff.

Keith.

A few comments...

1. I don't like the mentality that everyone who puts in 'something decent' deserves an honorable mention. If you're going to enter a competition, it's a COMPETITION.

2. At least with AMPS judging, 65% of the points come directly from construction, paint job, and markings. Not accuracy, the number of PE bits, the number of resin conversions, not even weathering, etc. The next 25% comes from weathering and 'finish continuity'. Which again, doesn't include anything about how many PE sets you bought, or how many rivets you added for a Mark VIb7 Thursday 7pm tank. The last 10% is called "scope and difficulty", and that's where those types of items could included, although what's more important is the execution of those things.

3. With the 'aging' nature of this hobby's participants, having magnifying glasses probably isn't a horrible idea. And as bad as the ambient lighting is in many places, additional lighting doesn't seem like a problem either.

4. With regard's to Keith's comment that every judge needs to be an 'expert' at every piece of armor ever developed to actually judge the model, that's ridiculous. It's simply unrealistic.

Why WILL you only ever be able to attend those? AMPS Nationals for instance is in Atlanta next year.

Lets stay focused , the question was; what do judges look for, correct! Alot of good answers here. Now we know what they look for basicly; AND what some do/don't like about judging. Yes, I can agree with most of the postings about judging likes and dislikes, but they don't answer the main question asked. I think it's kind of funny how things like this go way off kilter. Maybe someone should post a , what I dislike/like about judging. That ought to fill a bunch of pages. Anyway, what they look for is basicly a quality made model. How they make their picks are up to them and they all have their own formulas to achive it. I wont judge again because I feel if you do a model and bring it to a show, then you are a winner anyway. Yes, there is mostly only 3 winners per cat. and someone has to loose; but it is a compitition right! The club I belonged to in N.Y. used to give out honorable mentions. It's a (nice job but not quit good enough0 award which helps keep some modelers going on to better themselves in their endevores. Personally I think it's a great idea. But anyway, this got off it's basic question like I said earlier.
And I consider my self an average modeler, it's only, my hobby. If I had to build for compititions it would be more like a job and alot less fun.
Hey Jessica, we have E.C.M. pods and Pauls bods with catapultes for the little black helos. lol

Bob, I think you really should point out that you're describing 1 particular form of contests and judging. As I've explained, under the AMPS system, each person cannot have 'their own formula'. It is an open system of judging which anyone and everyone can read about up front. Everyone judges on the same criteria, and any differences are typically very small. Further, the lowest score is scratched.

The original question was "what are judges looking for" but it appears to me that many answers are more related to questions like "what should judges be looking for" or "what should judges not be looking for".

Even when modelling is a hobby (as pointed out by some) nobody should be offended when judges poorly rate a model entered in a competition. By nature, there is only one victor in a competition so any flaw is deadly.

Hey hold on a moment, I am NOT infering that they know every subject at all, I am indicating that a Sand colored Tamiya Chieftain Mk2/3/5 (it's neither) with an Arabic number on it cannot or should not be entered as a Chieftain Mk7.

When any model is altered it should have reference material to support it.. Otherwise a modeller can call it anything he or she likes. Or just call it a Tank or plane or ship etc?

I am not calling into question the judges ability to judge the build.
Now I will bow out and leave it to the experts here.

Keith.

Thank you for all of the comments. I'm gleaning an understanding from them; even the ones slightly off topic.
Jesse: I don't have a ride of my own, so I must rely on my dad to take me to competitions. And, I don't believe he has any desire to go to Atlanta despite a competition there.
I have a bad habit of wanting to use every am part in my builds. Currently, I'm working on a Pz.IV ausf. G from 1943. I am using the F2 pe for it and claiming that it is an upgraded F2 sent as a reinforcement for tanks lost during the campaign.

Actually, I would suggest that any search for an understanding of what the judges at a particular show or competition are looking for should start with the RULES that apply.

Both IPMS / USA and AMPS have their own rules sets, so read those first:

IPMS / USA Competition Hand Book

AMPS Rules for Show Judging

After you've read through these, you will know what the judges are supposed to look for.

In practice, what the judges actually look for, especially in the IPMS / USA world, can be quite different.

In IPMS / USA, it is up to each contest Chief Judge to brief all of his volunteer judges before the start of judging and bring them into a uniforma and consistant understanding of the judging criteria and procedures for his show. Unfortunately, this does not happen all too often,and when it does, the CJ's are all too often hasty or unclear about their instructions.

(For instance, in an IPMS show, if the Chief Judge allows it - either explicitly or by ommission - the judges can use any measuring or vision aids that they want. Another example is accuracy. You'll note that issues of technical accuracy are expressly ruled out from the criteria of both IPMS and AMPS. However, in an IPMS show, the CJ can also allow his judges to use issues of accuracy as judging criteria.)

IPMS / USA does not have any other process besides the CJ briefing to bring thier judging into consistancy below their National Convention level. However, at the National Convention level, the IPMS / USA rules in their Competition HB are very consistantly applied. At the local and regional levels, though, judging is a crap shoot - sometimes very good, often horrible, and usually just mediocre.

On the other hand, what you read in the AMPS Rules is what you get at every AMPS show. AMPS has a very stringent judges' training process and quite rigid judging processes that make for very consistant application of the rules from one AMPS's show to another. AMPS has a judge's certification process that trains each certified judge on the rules and procedures and how to apply them. AMPS presents this certification training before almost every show - International, Regional, and Local. However, AMPS also accepts un-trained or un-certified volunteers for judging and puts those individuals on judging teams with other experienced and certified judges. So, anyone can judge in an AMPS show.

Another thing to keep in mind about these two different rules sets is that IPMS / USA holds model competitions with clear winners and losers. If you don't like that idea, competing against each other until the judges rule one model the best and the winner and all others losers, then don't enter an IPMS contest.

(There are exceptions to this in IPMS - open judging shows. Read the particular contest rules though.)

AMPS, on the other hand, holds models shows and exhibitions. None of the models in the regular judging are competing against each other. Each model is judged against a standard set of criteria (already briefly explained by Jesse above) according to the Skill Level of the model builder. The object of an AMPS show (not an AMPS contest) is to provide each model builder feed back in the form of a numerical score and written comments from each judge in order to help that model builder improve his or her skills and craft.

The model score sheets are provided to each and every participant in all AMPS shows. Each entrant gets a score sheet for each model entered which has that model's numerical score and the written comments made by each judge that looked at that model.

In AMPS, if you want to know what the judges looked at, just read your score sheets.

So, if you want to compete or exhibit at either an IPMS / USA contest or an AMPS show, do your homework first and become familiar with the rules. It also helps to become active in a local chapter of either (or both!) organizations. You'll learn a lot more about how to successfully compete or show from your club mates than you can ever learn from internet discussions.

Finally, once you do enter a contest or show, volunteer to judge! I've read a lot of excuses here (and heard them all many times before) about why someone doesn't want to judge or feels that he's not qualified to judge. Horse feathers!

It's all too easy to sit by in the peanut gallery and then complain later about how bad the judging was at such and such a show. But if you're not willing to put any of your own time and effort into making a show successful, then you're also partly to blame for any poor judging that occurs.

If you're not happy with the judging, then become a judge yourself or don't enter the show. Your entry fees are not a payment for "services rendered." They are only ever enough to cover the operating costs for a show. The hosting club isn't getting rich off those entry fees, believe me. Yes, all the participants deserve a fair shake with the judging, but that also requires that people who give a darn are willing to help out with that judging.

Being a judge is the number one thing that you can do to learn how to be a better model builder and also how to be more successful at your next show or contest. If you really want to participate in shows and contests, then you have an obligation to give back to the events to make them successful and better.

There're no secrets when it comes to model contest or show judging. Anyone can judge (I have never been to a show where volunteers were turned away or not welcome.

Hey Jesse, if it's AMPS or just a local club it doen't matter. The point that AMPS uses a point system to accrue points for placement in awards was not the question. When all is written and read at the end of the day, it is the quality of the model that is judged. And that means the build, the paint/decals and setting if there is one. Sloppy work is still sloppy and good work is good. Excellent is well, excellent. As far as AMPS is concerned by me, I find their point system more encouraging than most, especially for a beginer. But no matter how you look at it, it's the quality of all the aspects put together in a final product that counts.

Mike: Thank you for the link to the rules and guidelines. I have already read the IPMS material. I will enter AMPS shows at JaxCon and will finish reading it this evening.

From my judging experience (AMPS and Local/Regional IPMS) the errors/problems that seem most common to watch out for with armor:
-running gear issues (road wheels/tracks not parallel/perpendicular etc)
-finishing problems (decal silvering a big one, hair/dust in paint finish, blobby washes/tide marks) shiny stowage
But as mentioned before, number one is basic construction-mold seams cleaned, seams (if any) filled and sanded, no glue marks etc.

Jim