i would like to state (in my humble opinion) that Obersturmfuhrer Wittmann was the finest tank commander of WWll. proof: 138 tanks and 132 anti-tank guns destroyed.

"Ob Sturm oder Schneit...................

Also His life was amazing and interesting, atleast his military career, I have a book called Tiger Ace thats about him from when he joined the military to when he was killed, excellent book!

Staff Sergeant Lafayette G. Pool is my Tank Ace of Aces.
As a Sherman commander in the 3/32d Armor, 3d Armored Division, SSG Pool and his crew destroyed 258 German vehicles, killed over 1000 enemy soldiers and took 250 POWs. He accomplished this in 80 days of combat. The only reason he was stopped form amassing even more kills was he was blown out of his turret ( he had 3 mounts shot out from under him in these 80 days!) and eventually lost his right leg. He was brought back to active duty as an instructor by the Army, where he continued his career until he retired as a Chief Warrant Officer in the 60's.
Could you imagine him in a Pershing.

Agreed, I had the privilege of serving in that battalion when it was part of the 1st Cavarly Division. We had a few momentos of him, as well as naming the battalion commander's tank "IN THE MOOD" after his Sherman. Last time he visited was after the Gulf War, just before his death in 1991. Unfortunately, I had already left to attend my advanced course so I did not meet him.

Have to agree about Sgt. Pool on this one. One has to remember that our guy did this in a short span of time with a weapon system in many ways inferior to his opponents. Hence having three of them shot out from under him. Wittman had far more time in combat to run up his score (like his aviator counterpart Erich Hartmann), a well as a tank that was a monster at that time. The Tiger had plenty of flaws but gun power and protection weren't at all sub-par. Relatively easy to plink up a big score when you are secure in the knowledge that your weapon outranges that of the enemy and your armor is nearly impervious to his antitank guns. But I have to note the irony that Wittman and his vaunted Tiger were toasted by a variant of one of the most (unfairly, IMO) maligned tanks of the war: A Sherman. It was a Firefly that drilled him.
Greg

I agree, Sgt. Pool would be my choice as well.

I have got to go with Officer Cadet Roman Orlic,who in 1939 knocked out 13 superior
German tanks on the 14th 18th 19th sept,bearing in mind he was riding a two and a half ton
TK s Tankette with a 25mm cannon that was some feat.
cheers
Arthur :-)

Orlic's feat is quite interesting. Any links about him?

Wittman began his carrer as an ace during the Charkow battle in Russia (1942/43)....
Am I right?
Cheers

i've heard of poole, and i question those stats. wittmann died in a carpet bombing bombing raid.

I personally never saw any evidence disputing SSG Pool's record. Even if the claims were inflated (as if the German propaganda machine would not EVER stoop so low) his ability to utilize his weapon system so effectively in such a short period of time forgives some fudging in my mind.
I do agree about Wittmann's demise...it's widely believed that his tank was destroyed by Typhoons. The Firefly attack makes for a better story, though.
BTW: anyone have info about British and Russian Tank Aces? I'd like to hear those stories.

i could go along with that, but wehrmacht records were thorough (OKW hated the propanda ministry). the u.s air force always led the way and the army cleaned up, that is why i doubt poole's stats. and also naval gunfire, the allies needed these because in a ground fight the germans were superior.

"In a ground fight the Germans were superior."

That is a relic of the Cold War, my friend, and totally discredited by modern scholarship. This myth was perpetuated for forty years to help bolster military spending against the Soviet threat, and particularly within Germany as a means to salve wounded pride. It's hard to take; getting your country totally trashed twice in half a century.

I won't dispute that US troops in particular had a very steep learning curve when first exposed to combat, but I cannot accept a blanket statement that the Germans were superior fighters. Recall that it was outnumbered and inexperienced American troops that fought the critical delaying actions in the Ardennes, completely disrupting the German offensive timetable. One American infantry battalion fought on a hilltop near Mortain, surrounded and unsupported for five days in the wake of that counterattack and was instrumental in sealing the fate of that ill-considered assault. Just two examples.

The Russians will offer many further examples. The Red Army learned fast. It was Russian tankers in roughly equal numbers that smashed the vaunted SS divisions at Kursk, and a year later totally encircled and destroyed Army Group Center. And it wasn't just numbers that did the trick; that is a fallacy.

The fact is the Germans did well early in the war by virtue of surprise and having mastered a new tactical and operational system. Everyone else had to catch up. Once we did, it was game over. So they built tanks in some ways superior to ours. Big deal. They failed to mobilize fully for the war effort until late '43, and built fewer than 7,000 Tigers and Panthers. We built that many tank detroyers alone; and seven times that many tanks overall. And we learned to use them to their best advantage. That is called tactical skill. The Germans were never as mechanized as people think; most of their infantry was always leg and most of their artillery horse-drawn. Surely not a recipe for a superior mobile army. They did reasonably well with what they had, but hardly created the perfect instrument for mobile armored warfare. Do a little more reading of material published since the end of the Cold War, and you'll see these old myths exploded.
Greg

greg,
it took overwhelming numbers to defeat the german army in WWll and hitler's stupidity.

people like wittmann, primozic, dietrich and witt are still heroes to me.

Hitler's stupidity...Well, can't argue against that one. But it didn't end there, German generals made their share of mistakes too--happens in every army, and we shouldn't forget it. Despite their rhetoric they certainly were not supermen. Some of these guys were exceptionally good, but so were some of ours. Did overwhelming numbers destroy Germany? Of course. But not JUST numbers. No army on earth has ever won consistently while grossly outnumbered--not over an extended period of time, so the Germans losing the war was really a foregone conclusion. You don't take on the entire world with a nation of 33 million people and expect to win. Not if you are smart or honest about it. The Germans were neither, blinded by Nazi ideology to the utter ridiculousness of going to war against the entire industrialized world. Wasn't just Hitler doing that, the whole nation lined up behind him. I've said it before--they did well for a time, remarkably so. But they never possessed the means to win a total victory. Bottom line--truly superior armies and their underlying societies don't lose wars. The Germans lost, so that answers the superiority question. Wittman was a damn good tank commander, but like his nation was engaged in an effort doomed to fail in the end.
Greg

Greg,
Your comment about being doomed to fail rings true. We all like to romanticize about WWII a bit, but there is one basic fact that ussually gets lost in the shadows. The Axis "powers" were basically 4 countries (Germany, Italy, Austria, and Japan) with limited resources and manpower. The Allies were composed of just about every other industrialized nation on the planet with almost unlimited resources and manpower. Hmm.... sounds like doomed to me.

Jim

Audie Murphy, Commando Kelly, Creighton Abrams...
Well said, Greg.

Bob...for Orlic read Janusz Magnuski, polish historian. Evidence given by
Col Tom Boardman of the 1st Northants Yeomary....."when the Tigers were about 1,000
yards from us,Itold 3 troop (and my gunner to fire).the firefly did the damage.but our75s
helped and must have taken the track off one which started to circle out of control.They
shot backat us,put the Firefly out temporarily as its commander was hit on the head.
Howeverat the end a very frw minutes there were three killed Tigers and nobody was seen to bale out presumably the crews were killed.Despite claims by the RAF and the Canadians,i can assure you and any one else that those three Tigers were the victims of no 3 Troop,A Sqn 1st Northamtonshire Yeomanry.......
cheers
Arthur
am alba mannich

i know germany lost the friggin' war, that's not my point. i just wanted to know what people thought about Michel Wittmann. THAT'S ALL! sure the allies had their heroes, Audie Murphy is one of my favorite.

I am no tanker expert by any means, but what little I have read, Wittmann had to be good at what he did to survive so long. He probably had the qualities of a good fighter pilot; excellent eyesight and quick reflexes. These are attributes needed to survive in the air and on the ground. I will not degrade nor be-little the exploits of a past warrior, no matter what side they were on. They had a job to do and they did it to the best of their ability and with what they were given to do it with. We all have our favorites, and NOBODY is wrong. I personnally think "Pappy" Boyington said it best.... Show me a Hero and I'll prove he's a Bum! But that is for another time and post.

thanks chief,
i also like pappy, erich hartmann, saburo sakai and ivan kozhedub.

What bird did Ivan ride?

yak7,9 .....LaGG 3

some of what ivan flew

Wittman... ace of the aces!

Neither did or will I. Nor did Greg.
I never said anything against Wittmann...I have read of his exploits in "Panzer Aces" and was impressed. I just think Pool doesn't get enough credit for his skill or actions.