_GOTOBOTTOM
Tools & Supplies: Airbrushes
Talk about airbrushes.
Hosted by Matt Leese
Failed Revolution?
Buckeye198
Visit this Community
Ohio, United States
Member Since: May 02, 2010
entire network: 596 Posts
KitMaker Network: 94 Posts
Posted: Saturday, August 13, 2011 - 08:01 AM UTC
I'm at a loss with my new airbrush. I bought an Iwata Revolution CR because I wanted a second brush I could use for both smaller details and overall use with acrylic paints. I also have a badger 200 (single-action, siphon-feed) that I've used with enamels for over a year, but I wanted another brush for an easy clean-up with acrylics. I bought Vallejo paints, as I got the best recommendations for these. I shook vigorously, poured it in the cup, and barely got any spray. I then thinned with isoprop, and I did get a moderate spray, but I was not able to get any lines thinner than about a half inch with significant overspray. I bought this brush for the prospect of more control and easier painting, but I'm discovering that I have actually LESS control than my single-action Badger and a longer painting session that used up more air and paint than I've ever used before. Can anyone tell me if this is user error, product error, or an error in my expectations? Thanks in advance!
Bizarre
Visit this Community
Akershus, Norway
Member Since: July 20, 2010
entire network: 1,709 Posts
KitMaker Network: 82 Posts
Posted: Saturday, August 13, 2011 - 08:35 AM UTC
What kind of Vallejo you used? ModelAir or Modelcolour? If Modelcolour - they are too thick for airbrushing and they are not to be diluted with ISP, only with water or Vallejo thinner.
Buckeye198
Visit this Community
Ohio, United States
Member Since: May 02, 2010
entire network: 596 Posts
KitMaker Network: 94 Posts
Posted: Saturday, August 13, 2011 - 10:00 AM UTC
I bought Vallejo Air figuring it would eliminate the thinner variable.
ludwig113
Visit this Community
England - South East, United Kingdom
Member Since: February 05, 2008
entire network: 1,381 Posts
KitMaker Network: 176 Posts
Posted: Sunday, August 14, 2011 - 02:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I bought Vallejo Air figuring it would eliminate the thinner variable.



i've found that if you add a little of the vallejo airbrush cleaner it makes them easier to spray,i have their airbrush thinner but it doesn't work that well with me .

paul
Grauwolf
#084
Visit this Community
Quebec, Canada
Member Since: September 14, 2005
entire network: 2,485 Posts
KitMaker Network: 480 Posts
Posted: Sunday, August 14, 2011 - 03:56 AM UTC
Ahoy Robby,
I have recently tried the Vallejo Model Air and in my opinion, is still a little thick
out of the bottle, I thin it with distilled water 3 parts paint 1 H20 and even 2 :1
in some cases depending on the paint job effect.

Over spray usually occurs with too thick paint and/or too high compressor pressure. Again try to diluted and drop the pressure to 10-15 psi.

As after as spray pattern, is your needle adjusted right ?
That airbrush should be able to give from a fine line to a
3/4 pattern.

What needle size does it have?

Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Joe
Buckeye198
Visit this Community
Ohio, United States
Member Since: May 02, 2010
entire network: 596 Posts
KitMaker Network: 94 Posts
Posted: Sunday, August 14, 2011 - 10:43 AM UTC
Ahoy Joe! I'm not sure, but the needle may be .5mm. At least that's the nozzle size. I know that I was using a fairly high pressure (~30psi) because I couldn't get any paint flow at the lower pressure (~15psi). I would have to agree with you, this is probably because of the paint's thickness. Now may I ask how you mix your paint and thinner? Do you have a cup for each color or do you mix in the brush's color cup itself?
Grauwolf
#084
Visit this Community
Quebec, Canada
Member Since: September 14, 2005
entire network: 2,485 Posts
KitMaker Network: 480 Posts
Posted: Sunday, August 14, 2011 - 03:39 PM UTC
Ahoy Robby,

I always mix my paint in a medicine cup the kind that they use in hospitals to
distribute pills to patients. Up here in the dollar stores they are $1.00/dozen.
I wash them out and reuse.
Transparent film cans work well too but these days with digital photography,
they are very hard to come by.

I have great results with thinning with distilled water. I did try alcohol but
Vallejo seems to gum up with alcohol at least it did for me... so just plain
distilled water works great.

The needle in your AB is quite a large one so I don't have the specs on how
small you can adjust but it will definitely deliver a very wide pattern.
You have a very good AB just a matter of tweaking now.
I will get back to you on that.
Later...
Joe
Buckeye198
Visit this Community
Ohio, United States
Member Since: May 02, 2010
entire network: 596 Posts
KitMaker Network: 94 Posts
Posted: Sunday, August 14, 2011 - 04:01 PM UTC
This really helps, thank you! I'll probably be able to come by the medicine cups, and I have been using isoprop, so maybe that would be another variable gone if I switch to distilled.

You think .5mm is too big?? Sure seems small to me, but what do I know? I'm the one with the problem I know that Chicago Airbrush (where I bought from) sold a "conversion kit" to .3mm, but that was $30 extra and I just didn't feel like paying even more. You think that would make a tremendous difference? I think I'll try the other things first...hope it works, and thanks again for your help! If you find anything else out, let me know!
ludwig113
Visit this Community
England - South East, United Kingdom
Member Since: February 05, 2008
entire network: 1,381 Posts
KitMaker Network: 176 Posts
Posted: Monday, August 15, 2011 - 02:05 AM UTC
i use model air all the time,
i just put the paint straight in the cup then add 3 or 4 drops of their airbrush cleaner,works a treat.

paul
Emeritus
Visit this Community
Uusimaa, Finland
Member Since: March 30, 2004
entire network: 2,845 Posts
KitMaker Network: 424 Posts
Posted: Monday, August 15, 2011 - 03:38 AM UTC
Although I don't have experience with that airbrush, I highly doubt the needle / nozzle size to be culprit. According to this review on the Britmodeller forums, that 0.5mm configuration can produce very nice lines.

A smaller nozzle & needle naturally allows finer lines to be achieved, but can clog more easily, and generally requires the paints to be thinned more.
If it's paint flow issues you're having, switching to smaller nozzle and needle wouldn't probably help.
From what you've told, I'd say the problem is caused by paint being too thick. I've never gotten Vallejo Airs working properly straight from the bottle either. Despite being advertised as pre-thinned, they really need further thinning in order to spray well.
With a Badger 105 Patriot equipped with a medium nozzle and needle, I can get Vallejo Airs through it, but with spatters and overspray as the paint's too thick out of the bottle. Okay for painting parts in a single colour by just putting paint in the cup and spraying away, but that's about it. Thinning is needed for any kind of finesse.

Speaking of airbrush nozzle sizes, I too can't help of thinking the 0.5mm nozzle as being quite small. But from what I've heard, that's supposedly in the larger end of the Iwata range.
I just recently wrecked the medium needle of my brush and had to switch to the fine needle it came with while I wait for my replacement parts order to arrive. The 0.51mm fine nozzle looks so small compared to the 0.76mm medium one.
Of course different brands aren't directly comparable, but I think the nozzle and needle size is just one part of the big picture, as there's many more variables involved: the painter, air pressure, paint thining ratios, paint quality, etc.
Personally I've been very happy with the medium needle and nozzle in my Badger. Quite versatile, good for everything from thin lines and mottled camo in 1:72 to larger coverage.
It would seem to me that the Revolution CR is similar.

Those medicine cups are indeed great for mixing and thinning paints!
I rarely thin my paint right in the airbrush cup, guess I'm paranoid about not getting it mixed properly.
Syringes are also good for thinning and mixing, as the ratios are easy to follow with the measurements printed on the side.

Buckeye198
Visit this Community
Ohio, United States
Member Since: May 02, 2010
entire network: 596 Posts
KitMaker Network: 94 Posts
Posted: Monday, August 15, 2011 - 10:23 AM UTC
I think you guys have nailed the problem here, and Emeritus, thank you for your added detail. I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who needs to thin "pre-thinned" paints! I've got to paint some more tonight if I'm ever going to get my halftrack for the All-American Tracks campaign done, so I'll let you guys know how my AB experience with your advice goes!
Buckeye198
Visit this Community
Ohio, United States
Member Since: May 02, 2010
entire network: 596 Posts
KitMaker Network: 94 Posts
Posted: Monday, August 15, 2011 - 01:44 PM UTC
Update: I used my brush again after thinning the Vallejo Air's with distilled and it worked like a charm! I was able to spray about a line and a half of standard news print cleanly, two lines with overspray. Going from a single-action siphon-feed to a dual-action gravity-feed, I was pretty impressed that I was able to neatly paint tiny pieces off of the sprue without having them fly all over the garage! Thanks to all those who chimed in...you have saved the Revolution!
Grauwolf
#084
Visit this Community
Quebec, Canada
Member Since: September 14, 2005
entire network: 2,485 Posts
KitMaker Network: 480 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 - 01:45 PM UTC
Ahoy Robby,
Glad to hear that it all worked out.
You may also at some point want to consider a .2 needle for extra fine work.
In any case, happy airbrushing!
Cheers,
Joe
Buckeye198
Visit this Community
Ohio, United States
Member Since: May 02, 2010
entire network: 596 Posts
KitMaker Network: 94 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - 12:06 PM UTC
UPDATE: As some on the forums are well aware, I'm incredibly frustrated at my whole airbrush setup (Iwata Revolution CR and Vallejo Air paints). At first I was suspecting the paint. I'm not sure how I managed to get it to look so good on that first model, since I have never been able to get anything even similar to those results since. So I switched back to my Testors enamels, thinned properly and spraying well (tested in my old Badger single-action). Not a drop sprayed through. What the heck!. So here I am, two models to be painted, and all I have is a single-action AB that can't do intricate details for my camo schemes and brushpainting. What can I do? Has ANYONE had problems with the Iwata Revolution and/or Vallejo paints? The past few months have been so upsetting for my modeling career, I'm pretty desperate for an answer.
zontar
Visit this Community
Hawaii, United States
Member Since: August 27, 2006
entire network: 1,646 Posts
KitMaker Network: 16 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - 02:10 PM UTC
Robby: I run an Iwata CR Revolution for all my airbrushing, but I am no expert and have had my fair share of painting disasters as well. The biggest thing I've noticed is I need to completely clean it after every session. Also, the paint quickly dries on the tip of the needle, so every so often I have to clean it. I typically use Tamiya, so I use Isoprop to thin and denatured alcohol to clean, including the tip. I haven't shot Vallejo, but I imagine you'd have to clean the tip with water for that one. I'm sure it dries just as fast as Tamiya.

Happy Modelling, -zon
retiredyank
Visit this Community
Arkansas, United States
Member Since: June 29, 2009
entire network: 11,610 Posts
KitMaker Network: 3,657 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - 02:22 PM UTC
One word for cleaning your ab, "acetone". Run a little through your ab after each color and a little before you start with another color. I've run everything through my ab to clean it. From tap water to MEK(some very nasty stuff) and nothing cleaned it better than acetone.
Buckeye198
Visit this Community
Ohio, United States
Member Since: May 02, 2010
entire network: 596 Posts
KitMaker Network: 94 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - 03:23 PM UTC
Zon: I noticed that the only way that paint came out was if I started the air flow, pulled the trigger all the way back (still no paint flow though), then with the air flow still going, pushing the trigger forward. I guess that this caused the needle to push a tiny drop of paint into the air flow and get a faint split-second color burst. That being the case, I don't know if the needle is the problem. Wouldn't that process still be impossible with a clogged needle?

Matt: Can't say that I've heard anyone suggest acetone before. Worth a shot, I guess...thanks for the newest suggestion!
Grauwolf
#084
Visit this Community
Quebec, Canada
Member Since: September 14, 2005
entire network: 2,485 Posts
KitMaker Network: 480 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - 10:17 PM UTC
Ahoy Robby,
Sorry to hear the AB is giving you problems again.

So it worked fine and now won't spray.

What pressure are you set at? Does air come out when the trigger is pulled back and depressed?
Try running plain water no paint to see if it will shoot out the water OK.
If plain water won't shoot. there may be a partial clog.
Here I would run some aggressive thinner such actetone or lacquer thinner
to completely dissolve any dried paint in the AB. Also as mentionned but others, run a solvent dipped Q tip...on the tip...there may be some dried paint there. If all this fails, take it apart and clean all the parts.
Try this and let us know if it resolves the problem.

As I mentioned before, I have had issues will Vallejo paints. Had to thin them,
and cannot be left in the AB very long as they will dry rapidly and create clogs.

I usually flush my AB right out, often within a painting session as to prevent any paint from drying inside the AB.

I have only ever used acrylics as paint on my models for ABing and Model Air
is quickly dropping to the bottom of my list.

Good old Tamiya and ModelMaster are very hard to beat!
Cheers,
Joe
frognot
Visit this Community
United Kingdom
Member Since: December 21, 2011
entire network: 2 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - 10:52 PM UTC
Hi,
I have a Revo CR too,as well as an Eclipse and HP-B and C. I started using Vallejo Air a little while ago too-it does spray nice,but has to be thinned with their airbrush cleaner,NOT the thinners,which are next to useless (IMHO). I have had a lot of problems with my A/Bs not working too recently-on stripping the Eclipse and Revo I found a huge amount of clag between the nozzle and body-I think that the acrylic paint dries inside whilst it is actually being sprayed-using the brush on and off over several minutes makes it worse,as the paint layers build up inside. I have tried everything,and the only way to really clean this crap out is to strip and use one of the small airbrush cleaning brushes as a sort of "pull through" much as you would a rifle barrel.
A shame,as the paint is very fine and when dried looks nice-but it needs a good primer and careful handling if it isn't to be damaged,especially for a few days after spraying.
I have been using Iwatas for more than 10 years,and always prided myself on keeping them clean,so was shocked to see how jammed up they were-I don't know if all acrylics are as bad,or just this make.Maybe a retardent would help,but I haven't got around to trying this myself.
Good luck, HTH.
Spiderfrommars
Visit this Community
Milano, Italy
Member Since: July 13, 2010
entire network: 3,845 Posts
KitMaker Network: 209 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 02:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Matt: Can't say that I've heard anyone suggest acetone before. Worth a shot, I guess...thanks for the newest suggestion!



Acetone can damege the seals unless thy are made on teflon. So if the seals of your AB are made on rubber, I personally warmly advise against cleaning your AB with acetone

Cheers
Buckeye198
Visit this Community
Ohio, United States
Member Since: May 02, 2010
entire network: 596 Posts
KitMaker Network: 94 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 06:57 PM UTC
Joe, I can spray water/isoprop/thinner/etc just fine (around 8-15PSI...dial's kinda hard to read on my compressor), but once paint gets in the cup, nothing comes out, so believe I can be pretty sure that it isn't a clog (so Sean, I'm not sure whether or not I should go ahead and field-strip it)...which upsets me even more that I'm not getting good performance out of the AB Should I not be using water to thin? Because as soon as I get the paint thin enough to spray, it won't adhere to plastic and puddles and runs off. Maybe isoprop would help in that respect. I guess it would mean a higher likelihood for AB-clogging, but since that probably isn't the issue at hand, maybe it would be okay? Or what about thinning with Future? I've heard that gives good results.

And Mauro, I just checked and the Revolution's rings are all Teflon, so I'm good to go. Thanks for bringing that up though...I had no idea!
Spiderfrommars
Visit this Community
Milano, Italy
Member Since: July 13, 2010
entire network: 3,845 Posts
KitMaker Network: 209 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 07:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text

And Mauro, I just checked and the Revolution's rings are all Teflon, so I'm good to go. Thanks for bringing that up though...I had no idea!



So, you can also use nitrocellulose thinner as cleaner, without any problems and with very effective results

Cheers
imatanker
Visit this Community
Maine, United States
Member Since: February 11, 2011
entire network: 1,654 Posts
KitMaker Network: 89 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 12:55 PM UTC
Robby: I am new to air brushing, but not to automotive refinishing.I can not state it enough,clean it,clean it,clean it! Ithink you are right that if you can spray water or iso through the brush it is not clogged.That leads me to beleive that the paint is too thick to go through the brush.My brush is a Paasche Talon and it likes stuff thin.One other thing I will say is that in auto refinishing,ALL the paint makers state the you use the same brand from primer to topcoat.I would suggest the you stick to one brand of paint products.If you spray Vallejo,thin and clean with Vallejo.Tamiya,thin and clean with Tamiya.Once you get something to work for you,then start experimenting with "household" cleaners and thinners.Full size cars or 1/35 scale armor,the theories are the same.Hang in there dude,you'll figure it out Jeff
TacFireGuru
Visit this Community
Colorado, United States
Member Since: December 25, 2004
entire network: 3,770 Posts
KitMaker Network: 747 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 02:33 PM UTC
Very good feed! Quite informative. Thanks all. Bookmarked as I too have an Iwata CR.

Mike
c5flies
Visit this Community
California, United States
Member Since: October 21, 2007
entire network: 3,684 Posts
KitMaker Network: 411 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 02:41 PM UTC
Robby, are you sure the needle is being pulled back with the trigger? If the needle chuck is slipping the needle may not be retracting far enough for paint to come out, water and other very thin liquids don't need as much an opening as paint.
 _GOTOTOP