History Club
Military history and past events only. Rants or inflamitory comments will be removed.
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Was Doug that good?
no-neck
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Posted: Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 10:36 PM UTC
I recently came across a quote attributed to MacArthur where he spoke about the ticking clock of destiny. I have read other quotes which are worthy of carefully staged 21st century sound bites and in my opinion pretty vainglorius. My Korean war vet Dad didn't like him and maybe that colors my perception but was he all that good? With the exception of the Inchon landings(and by now the Navy was real good at landings) I see him as being reactionary and a spendthrift with other peoples lives. Is his historical presence a created and engineered phenomena?
sgtreef
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Posted: Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 10:47 PM UTC
Me I have heard from a few People who were around then that he was more of a "movie Type General" then say a Patton.

I won't go into detail as not nice to talk about the dead.

Help any?
Drader
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Posted: Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 11:21 PM UTC
Generals tend to have a keen sense of their own destiny, so MacArthur is hardly alone in his deployment of what we now call soundbites. Specially when you consider that his postion in the Philippines had a significant political element rolled into it. His conduct of the Pacific campaign wasn't marked by genius (or idiocy), though it wasn't helped by the divided command which was just guaranteed to produce infighting between rival (very large) egos in the same way it did elsewhere.

Where I'm less keen on MacArthur is when he was SCAP in Japan, he seems to have let the Imperial family evade their responsibility for Japan's actions in China and during the Pacific War. In his defence though, the Japanese played the Red paranoia card very skilfully though and he hardly alone in letting potential war criminals off the hook.

David
FNC1
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Posted: Friday, June 27, 2008 - 04:36 AM UTC
Im not a big fan of MacArthur myself. When Hong Kong and Pearl Harbour were attacked, instead of following his sealed war plan, he retired to his quarters with his bible for several hours. The result of this is his bombers were destroyed on the ground instead of being over Formosa (I think thats where the plan called for) bombing the Japanese instead. The entire island hopping stratagy was also incredibly wasteful of men, for some pieces of real estate that could have been bypassed and left to wither on the vine. In Korea, his moment of brilliance was definitly the Inchon landings, but that ends up being overshadowed by his loud and public insistance on the use of nuclear weapons.
hellbent11
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Posted: Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 08:16 PM UTC
I am very close friends with a Marine vet of the Korean war (who served directly under Chesty Puller) and his recollections are that most thought he was a "Hollywood General" just trying to gain publicity for himself rather than do what militarily makes the most sense.
no-neck
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Posted: Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 10:39 PM UTC
I'm also not a fan of letting Hirohito off the hook. It seems a lot of people believe the emporer was uninformed about the actions taken by his military and this is untrue. I guess at the time, an allie in the east was more useful than another war criminal. Still, Japan came out pretty well despite their often barbaric conduct and MacArthur seemed to be their biggest booster.
long_tom
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Posted: Sunday, June 29, 2008 - 07:58 AM UTC
This topic happened to be discussed on another forum I follow, and the consensus was that Hirohoto was but a figurehead, and had no real control over the military, whether or not he knew what they did.

In fact, it was Hirohoto's personal declaration for his people to surrender that caused them to do so, and the two nuclear bombs gave him a pretext. There would have been a bloody invasion of the Japanese Home Islands otherwise.
m4sherman
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Posted: Monday, June 30, 2008 - 12:37 PM UTC
I find it interesting to talk with people that were around (my parents) or were there about some of the generals. On the home front it was mostly that McArthur did what he had to do etc. From a soldier left behind while McAxx got a free pass it was not very complimentary. From a soldier that served under him in the Pacific, and was told he was there for the duration, no chance of going home, only to find out that McA brought out his wife and son to be with him, it was even less complimentary.

From my reading books since high school, I never liked him. I always thought he was way over rated. If he had been as good as his propaganda machine claimed, he would not have had to give his I'll be back speach. But, that's just my 2 cents worth.
casailor
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Posted: Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 08:37 AM UTC
I've always thought Mac was an ok general. He was certainly a "hammer general' Hit the enemy with a hammer, if it didn't work send for a bigger hammer. Other than Inchon I've never seen any signs of strategic brillance but he always thought of himself as large than life. If he had spent more time fighting the enemies of the US and less time in political infighting and self-agrandizement he would have been much more effective.
Fitz
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Posted: Friday, August 22, 2008 - 03:07 PM UTC
Don't care for the man as a general. His initial lack of response to the news of the Pearl Harbor attack absolutely doomed the Phillipines and the men who defended it. He should have been sent back to the states to push pencils for that.

But the man was one hell of a self-promoter. Perhaps the first media general.
JMartine
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 01:24 PM UTC
I recently finished reading Max hastings book on the Korean war... several pages devoted to the "McArthur" large than life problem.... all supported by plenty evidence, footnotes and records. Not a good portrayal at all, both at the human leader and military strategist level (besides Inchon).
DutchBird
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Posted: Friday, August 29, 2008 - 03:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Don't care for the man as a general. His initial lack of response to the news of the Pearl Harbor attack absolutely doomed the Phillipines and the men who defended it. He should have been sent back to the states to push pencils for that.

But the man was one hell of a self-promoter. Perhaps the first media general.



First of all,

I would say the Phillipines were doomed regardless, once the Japanese decided to invade. Yes, Mac Arthur's actions and decisions might (especially in hindsight) have hastened the fall, but there was (in hindsight) little he could have done to prevent an eventual fall. Not only was the US in any way shape or form capable of sending any additional aid to the Phillipines. Mind you, sheer luck AND the breaking of the Japanese codes enabled the US to face (and eventually defeat) the Japanese at Midway.
Another problem was the widespread belief within ALL western militaries (and also politics) that the Japanese were completely inferior, and that Japanese successes in China and against Russia earlier that centruy had as much to do with the ineptness of the Japanese foes as the qualities of the Japanese... and that when the Japanese would face the Western powers, they would falter...

Also, Mac Arthur was far from the only self-promotor, or the first media-general. Other notables:

Mark Clark: His desire for glory through (especially) the use of American troops, and mis-trust of non-American troops, the French in particular, cost thousands of soldiers, many Americans among them) their lives in front of Monte Cassino. Likewise he refused to lsiten to the advise of others (including the British that had far more experince fighting the Germans). An unforgiveable mistake though, as almost all these troops were superior to the American units available. It is ironic that the Cassino position was eventually unhinged and cracked by French (primarily) and Polish and other commonwealth units (secondary).
To make matters worse, combined with the Anzio breakout he had the opportunity to destroy the German army in Italy. But in his hunt for glory to be the liberator of Rome and not be overshadowed by the eventual landings in France he ordered the avdnce guard to halt, even though they were only a few miles away from trapping the German army. This in direct violation of orders form his superior!.

Patton: If there ever was a prime example of a media-general it is Patton. Not only did he have the advantage of being able to exploit the rivalry between the British and Americans in the US media, he also cleverly used the fact that the British tended to get bogged down facing the best German forces. For instance, when he got into the action in Normandy, the German armored units were already heavily engaged facing the British and US forces, and had been heavily mauled in the fighting. He in many ways literally struck out into air. One of the pincers that was supposed to trap the Germans at Falaise was formed by his army. Similarly, his strike into southern Germany was relatively into thin air, with most German forces engaged somewhere else... And of course the Taskforce Baum suicide mission is in my opinion unforgiveable... and in most likelyhood resulted in the exact opposite of what was intended.
Removed by original poster on 09/01/08 - 12:14:17 (GMT).
rotATOR
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Posted: Monday, September 01, 2008 - 01:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Don't care for the man as a general. His initial lack of response to the news of the Pearl Harbor attack absolutely doomed the Phillipines and the men who defended it. He should have been sent back to the states to push pencils for that.

But the man was one hell of a self-promoter. Perhaps the first media general.



First of all,

I would say the Phillipines were doomed regardless, once the Japanese decided to invade. Yes, Mac Arthur's actions and decisions might (especially in hindsight) have hastened the fall, but there was (in hindsight) little he could have done to prevent an eventual fall. Not only was the US in any way shape or form capable of sending any additional aid to the Phillipines. Mind you, sheer luck AND the breaking of the Japanese codes enabled the US to face (and eventually defeat) the Japanese at Midway.
Another problem was the widespread belief within ALL western militaries (and also politics) that the Japanese were completely inferior, and that Japanese successes in China and against Russia earlier that centruy had as much to do with the ineptness of the Japanese foes as the qualities of the Japanese... and that when the Japanese would face the Western powers, they would falter...

Also, Mac Arthur was far from the only self-promotor, or the first media-general. Other notables:

Mark Clark: His desire for glory through (especially) the use of American troops, and mis-trust of non-American troops, the French in particular, cost thousands of soldiers, many Americans among them) their lives in front of Monte Cassino. Likewise he refused to lsiten to the advise of others (including the British that had far more experince fighting the Germans). An unforgiveable mistake though, as almost all these troops were superior to the American units available. It is ironic that the Cassino position was eventually unhinged and cracked by French (primarily) and Polish and other commonwealth units (secondary).
To make matters worse, combined with the Anzio breakout he had the opportunity to destroy the German army in Italy. But in his hunt for glory to be the liberator of Rome and not be overshadowed by the eventual landings in France he ordered the avdnce guard to halt, even though they were only a few miles away from trapping the German army. This in direct violation of orders form his superior!.

Patton: If there ever was a prime example of a media-general it is Patton. Not only did he have the advantage of being able to exploit the rivalry between the British and Americans in the US media, he also cleverly used the fact that the British tended to get bogged down facing the best German forces. For instance, when he got into the action in Normandy, the German armored units were already heavily engaged facing the British and US forces, and had been heavily mauled in the fighting. He in many ways literally struck out into air. One of the pincers that was supposed to trap the Germans at Falaise was formed by his army. Similarly, his strike into southern Germany was relatively into thin air, with most German forces engaged somewhere else... And of course the Taskforce Baum suicide mission is in my opinion unforgiveable... and in most likelyhood resulted in the exact opposite of what was intended.



this read more like a bash against the US military than Mac..."sheer luck", "hunt for glory" "rivalry..in the US media". In any event,I'm sure youre glad that the Allies won,huh?
Drader
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Posted: Monday, September 01, 2008 - 03:29 AM UTC
I agree that the Philippines were lost no matter what McArthur did or didn't do, it was only because the Japanese commander (Homma) was no Yamashita that they didn't fall as quickly as Malaya did.

Patton wasn't 'lucky' in facing largely beaten German forces in his drive east - it was always intended that his army was to be activated for the the purposes of exploitation once the US and British/Commonwealth/Polish armies already in Normandy had broken through the German forces. Exploitation was seen as his forte which is why he got the job. Where you might find reason to criticise him would be in Sicily where the German forces escaped largely intact while Patton was racing with Montgomery to capture Palermo and Messina.

David



JPTRR
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RAILROAD MODELING
#051
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Posted: Monday, September 01, 2008 - 05:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Where you might find reason to criticise him would be in Sicily where the German forces escaped largely intact while Patton was racing with Montgomery to capture Palermo and Messina.



It has been decades since I studied Patton, so I am open to recent analysis of him; that said, I have read that if his original scheme of racing up the coast road was followed, instead of giving it to Monty, that The Germans' wouldn't have had time to escape, at least en mass as they did. Monty was never known to be be fast and think on his feet. No way of knowing for sure, but some historians think Patton would not have gotten bogged down, as Monty did.

As for Doug being wasteful of lives, he started the 'island hopping' and 'whither on the vine' strategies. IIRC, his WW2 causalities were the lowest of any general, per capita of troops commanded, and troops faced in major battles. Korea I know little about, other than Gen. James Van Fleet's tenure.

Mac froze after Pearl Harbor; Many believve that if he'd kept his head, we could have seriously hurt the Tinian Air Group and the other IJNAF that destroyed Clarke Field, etc. They were grounded by fog; Saburo Sakai wrote they were scared to death of B-17s sudddenly appearing over Formosa and blowing them to bits. Probably would not habve saved the P.I., but kept the loss from being such a disaster.

He froze after the Chinese attacked across the Yalu. He had little choice but to expend lives at Buna in New Guinea, and back down Korea. Whether he bears culpability in setting up the battles, once they were joined, he had to fight with what he had.

Many generals are products of their PR, and their PR can be subjective. Halsey was a great Admiral who is tarnished for leading his fleet through two deadly typhoons, and almost letting the Leyte invasion fleet be suprised by the Imperial Fleet. Rommel, so admired by the US and UK, isn't even considered in the top 10 German generals in Germany!

I detest situational ethics, but Real Politik of post-war Japan and the dawning Cold War requires an apologetic view of Mac's exoneration of Hirohito, et al.
JPTRR
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RAILROAD MODELING
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Posted: Monday, September 01, 2008 - 06:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I won't go into detail as not nice to talk about the dead.



I wouldn't be concerned. It is called history. Great men know they will be discussed long after they pass away. Some people are tragically forced into historical debate without looking for it. Others cultivate it.
Herchealer
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Posted: Monday, September 01, 2008 - 01:01 PM UTC
Most generals are politicians in uniform. That is not saying that they are not good or a great leader. But to reach that level is due mostly to their ability to promote themselves. You have to be a good talker to reach that level. All generals in a way are yes men. You have to fill certain boxes to fill them. To me finding a great leader is not what they did as generals, but what did they do as Lt's and Capts??? I true leader is in the dirt with the men not the one giving the marching orders. The more rank you get the farther you get from where the metal meets the meat. the best leaders will never be noticed, for they lead and not promote themselves. All Gerenals were probably great leaders at one time, just judge them before politics played such a vital role into the decisions they make.

herky




telsono
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Posted: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 12:15 PM UTC
Patton had two faces, his "War Face" that he showed the world and his "Home Face" that was for his family. It was like two differnt personalities.He certainl was more informed and involved in the training of the troopps under him than MacArthur ever was.

In Sicily, General Alexander was more of a problem than anybody else, He was of the opinion, as were many other British Generals, that the American Soldier was not up to par after the fighting in North Africa and would deride their abilities. Don't use the movie "Patton" as a measure of those events as it has many untrue events. Montgomery when he had gotten bogged down in the mountain fighting had asked Patton to take Messina. Patton was still aprehensive about this "liberty" that Monty handed him as expecting another slap in the face to the dignity of the American Soldier. Allied Airpower was certainly mishandled in this campaign as it could have effectively shut down the ferry service to Calabria and didn't.

MacArthur seemed to be more of a person wound up much about himself. He inherited the Governship of the Philippines from his father and took a very imperial lifestyle, When he was sent Washington DC he brought along his Filipino mistress.

Mike T.
panzerboy1944
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Posted: Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 06:10 PM UTC
Hi All
My Father was in the 1st Marine Division in the Pacific during ww2 didnt have much good to say about Dugout dug maybe the Phillipines maybe was a lost cause when the Japanese had landed but left them great men to wither on the vine and what they suffered can not even imagined by todays generation and as far as Patton goes my late uncle served under him said he was an SOB but would have follwed him anywhere and as far as the gentlemen from the Netherlands if it wasnt for the United States Industrial might and Brave soilders saliors airmen and Marines they would still speaking German and in alot of Countrys they would be speaking Japanese
Thanks Lee
youngc
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Posted: Friday, December 26, 2008 - 01:44 AM UTC
Lee, your comment is very hard to read due to lack of punctuation.

Harm Manders from the Netherlands is only expressing his opinion. Just because the U.S military once helped liberate his country doesn't mean he should speak of them with wonder and eternal gratefulness. Everybody here is allowed to share their critique, unless it concerns current events!

From my reading, Doug, as well as General Blamey (who is widely considered, due to certain comments and incidences, a self-centred, power and glory-hungry general), was out of touch and thus highly critical of the Australian Army during the fighting at Papua, 1942. His demands, expectations and contempt for the AIF later in the war resulted in the AIF being deployed for wasteful mopping-up operations such as the North Borneo and Bougainville campaigns.

However, I am grateful (and so should be all Australians) to the U.S military's overall support which resulted in an Allied victory in the Pacific.

Chas
thathaway3
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Posted: Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 07:47 AM UTC
A good answer to the question of Douglas MacArthur's place on the list of "good" generals can be found in the book "The Coldest Winter", by David Halberstam.

It's NOT a pretty picture. While there is no doubt that the invasion at Inchon was a masterful stroke of genius, it would never have been necessary had MacArthur been a good general. The reasons cited for this in the book are pretty compelling.

1) He completely mis-read the entire situation w/respect to the North Korean's capabilities.
2) He allowed the forces under his command to become totally ineffective as a fighting force.
3) He absolutely blew the call about Chinese intervention (in all fairness he had help on this one.)
4) His ego concerning his brilliance and place in history went far beyond insubordination.

His handling of the post war reconstruction of Japan probably deserves high marks, but he made two totally unforgiveable blunders that absolutely exclude him from being considered "great" IMHO.

1) He underestimated his enemies (on more than one occasion)
2) He overestimated his abilities and surrounded himself with sycophants, who only allowed information which fit "The General's" pronouncements rather than battlefield reality.

Every great man has flaws. Douglas MacArthur had too many as far as I'm concerned to be considered great.

I'll put it this way. I would never want to serve under a commander who's brilliance was so hobbled by the flaws he had. From what I know about George Patton, I'd serve under him in a minute.

If you're interested in learning more, I highly recommed Halberstam's book. It can be a bit dry at times, but it's VERY revealing about a time in history many are not familiar with, which has direct bearing on today's world and many of the events which have unfolded in the last 60 years.

telsono
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Posted: Monday, December 29, 2008 - 10:55 AM UTC
Another big difference between MacArthur and Patton was that Patton worked his way through training commands and understood the needs to keep up with the evolving technology and wasn't afraid to shed the horse for the tank. Bradley remarked about Patton's staff that he (Patton) got a lot of work performed by a group of medicore officers. Bradley had a staff, all highly ranked from West Point in their speciifc areas (read all type A personalities). Patton selelcted a group of officers who could work and collaborate together. In other words, Bradley had a staff of blue plated ring bangers and Patton had a command team whith the emphasis on team.
Also ,Patton wasn't out to to his boss's job. MacArthur was after that brass ring all the time. Butcher writes favorably about Patton because if Ike asked him to do something he put his best effort to complete the effort to Ike's satisfaction. This goes for composing leaflets in French, etc. As an Army Commander Patton was where he wanted to be, he knew he couldn't be in the rarified air of Ike's office. Patton and Ike were old friends as they co-wrote papers on armor tactics in the early 1920's while neighbors on a base in Kansas I believe. While in Morocco after his army was cut off from the action on garrison duty, he did more than review the Royal Moroccan troops. During this period he was personally involved in the field testing of captured German equipment which was information needed by our forces fighting in Tunisia.
Another incident that sheds a light on Patton's character. Ike placed a general in charge of one of Patton's division because of some favor, etc. This general failed to perform and Ike told Patton that he would personally remove him. Patton refused the offer saying that he wasn't finished with him. At this point, Patton moved his HQ to that division for a month, trained up that officer so that the next time that division went out they performed as expected. This saved his boss (Ike) from embarassment as well as adding another competent divisional commader to the army. MacArthur (and believe it or not Bradley) would have fired him and got someone to replace him.

Mike T.
motorbreath23
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Posted: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 06:37 PM UTC

Quoted Text

As for Doug being wasteful of lives, he started the 'island hopping' and 'whither on the vine' strategies.



I was under the impression Chester Nimitz was responsible for the island hopping strategy.
telsono
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Posted: Friday, January 09, 2009 - 10:22 AM UTC
Doesn't the "wither on the vine" strategy refer to Rabaul and Truk? Those were also in Nimitz's area. MacArtur was very big on recovering his lost legacy in the Philippines.

Mike T.