History Club
Military history and past events only. Rants or inflamitory comments will be removed.
Hosted by Frank Amato
Best German Tank of WW2
GeraldOwens
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Member Since: March 30, 2006
entire network: 3,736 Posts
KitMaker Network: 35 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 - 08:26 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Many people think that the Panther was the best German Tank, but I beg to differ. For me it has to be the Panzer IV, and especially the Mark IV Special, it was the better of any Sherman or Comet, and equal on terms with a good crew, against the T34-76. All round it was a winner.
What are your views on this.
Scott


The Panzer IV was adequate for the mid war period, but it was well past its use-by date by 1944. The box shaped hull was archaic in layout compared to the sloped armor used by later German designs, and the heavier armor fitted on the later H and J models overstressed the drive train.
Panther would have been a great tank if it had had two more years of research and development before being committed to production. It's development cycle, a scant 20 months, left far too many technical problems, and it was needlessly complex. Late war production models suffered from poor armor steel quality, as the supplies of nickel, manganese, chromium and molybdenum were drying up, and brittle carbon steels were substituted.
As for German training being superior, that was certainly not the case in 1944--there was simply no fuel and no time to properly train tank crews. The new Panther brigades rushed into combat in the Lorraine Campaign in September, 1944, were chewed up in very one-sided engagements by experienced Sherman crews, and these tanks didn't even have the new 76 mm gun.
As for the canard that five Shermans were lost for every Panther, it's just one of those catch phrases that's been repeated ad nauseum until everyone believes it. Steve Zaloga has actually checked the stats, and the ratio is far less. In fact, the deciding factor in tank vs tank engagements is nearly always who fires first (usually the defender), not the apparent advantage in armor thickness or firepower.
UncaBret
Visit this Community
Illinois, United States
Member Since: May 11, 2008
entire network: 767 Posts
KitMaker Network: 89 Posts
Posted: Monday, October 05, 2009 - 02:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Why would yo go for the workhorse car, when you can chose the sports car?



Because the workhorse car will get me to work and back while the sports car sits at the side of the road waiting for a tow-truck.

I'll go with the Pz IV, also. But I don't think it was superior to the Sherman, rather they kept pace. A PzIV H versus a M4A3E8? Too close to call.
rolf
Visit this Community
Washington, United States
Member Since: August 17, 2004
entire network: 301 Posts
KitMaker Network: 23 Posts
Posted: Monday, October 05, 2009 - 06:11 AM UTC
While technically not a tank, the StuG was the biggest tank killer taking out more enemy armor than any other German armored vehicle. Also it was cheaper to produce so the Germans gots their money's worth there. And also again while technically not a tank, the Ferdinand/Elefant had a pretty high kill to loss ratio (and it was considered a failure by many "historians"). As for "Tanks" I would have to go with the Pz.Kpfw. IV. It was adaptable and relatively cheap when compared to the Panther and Tiger. The Panther was a very good tank killer but thats about it. It wasn't really very good for anything else. I am kinda suprised that the Germans didn't modify the Pz. IV and give it sloped armor. Use the basic hull and drive train and redo the armor lay out (I am scratching a model of this by the way). It would have resulted in a lighter better armored tank. Good thing they didn't.

Roy
bizzychicken
Visit this Community
Wales, United Kingdom
Member Since: September 06, 2008
entire network: 967 Posts
KitMaker Network: 81 Posts
Posted: Monday, October 05, 2009 - 07:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

While technically not a tank, the StuG was the biggest tank killer taking out more enemy armor than any other German armored vehicle. Also it was cheaper to produce so the Germans gots their money's worth there. And also again while technically not a tank, the Ferdinand/Elefant had a pretty high kill to loss ratio (and it was considered a failure by many "historians"). As for "Tanks" I would have to go with the Pz.Kpfw. IV. It was adaptable and relatively cheap when compared to the Panther and Tiger. The Panther was a very good tank killer but thats about it. It wasn't really very good for anything else. I am kinda suprised that the Germans didn't modify the Pz. IV and give it sloped armor. Use the basic hull and drive train and redo the armor lay out (I am scratching a model of this by the way). It would have resulted in a lighter better armored tank. Good thing they didn't.

Roy

Roy I think you have hit the nail on the head. If the Germans had spent time developing sloped armour on the Pz IV instead of trying to up armour the Box like hull and over stressing the drive train and engine, I think they wwould have been on to a winner. Does anyone know why they didn't try and go down this route, a bit like what the Allieds done with the Sherman's hull and turret? Just imagine how good a cross between a Panther and Pz IV would have been, surely a very dangerous adversery.
Removed by original poster on 10/07/09 - 21:45:08 (GMT).
rolf
Visit this Community
Washington, United States
Member Since: August 17, 2004
entire network: 301 Posts
KitMaker Network: 23 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 06:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text

but due to costs and especialy the poor performance of the pnz IV (A,B,C,D,E F1) in the stugs role things had to change.



How was the Pz. IVs performance "poor"? One must remember the Pz. IV was designed as the support tank for the Pz. III not the Infantry. That is why is was armed with the 7.5cm which had a heavier HE round than the 3.7cm gun on the Pz. III. Better for taking out those pesky AT guns and dug in infantry positions that could hinder the Pz. III. As the war progressed it was found that the 5cm KwK was the limit for the Pz. III and it's usefulness as a gun tank thus reached. Not so for the Pz IV. Thus the roles were essentially changed. The Pz. IV became the gun tank and the Pz. III (Ausf. N armed with the short 7.5 to be exact) became the support tank for the Tiger Battalions (although rarely used in this role). Wittman's VB romp is a reflection more on Wittmans ability to take advantage of a situation than of the Tiger's abilities. He may have been able to achieved the same results with a Pz. IV Ausf. J. Nor is VB a unique type situation. There are several documented cases of T-34s and KVs running down streets and roads tearing up whole columns of German vehicles. I'm sure even some Shermans were involved with a attack or two like VB.


Roy
bizzychicken
Visit this Community
Wales, United Kingdom
Member Since: September 06, 2008
entire network: 967 Posts
KitMaker Network: 81 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 06:58 AM UTC
Again Does anyone out there know if German tank developers tried to develop sloping armour for the Pz IV or were more interested in developing the Jagpanzer IV? Am I dreaming but have I seen some where that they tried to fit a Panther turret to a Pz IV chassie?
Kastanova
Visit this Community
Victoria, Australia
Member Since: May 10, 2008
entire network: 150 Posts
KitMaker Network: 12 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 09:25 AM UTC
roy,
i was just having a whinge about the early panzer IV performance as a support tank, as it size seeriously hindered that ability my phrasing was bad. the weapon was excellent though short ranged compared to the stug which was lower and more effective (support weapon), the pz III as a chassis with its easier parts to produce was better for the industry until the long barrel panzer IV F2's came out which could knock out a T34 at range.
i believe that whole coloums and such suffered heavly to a lone kv 1 or firefly, and i believe without the tiger wittman couldn't done it but it was still a great feat.
cheers,
mat
rolf
Visit this Community
Washington, United States
Member Since: August 17, 2004
entire network: 301 Posts
KitMaker Network: 23 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 09:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Again Does anyone out there know if German tank developers tried to develop sloping armour for the Pz IV or were more interested in developing the Jagpanzer IV? Am I dreaming but have I seen some where that they tried to fit a Panther turret to a Pz IV chassie?



Hey Geraint, I do believe there were some concepts but that they never made it off the drawing table. I am building my own version (not based on anything but my imagination) using the old Italeri kit. I have the turret about 75% done and some hull pieces cut but thats it so far.

Roy
McIvan
Visit this Community
New Zealand
Member Since: November 18, 2009
entire network: 64 Posts
KitMaker Network: 10 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 02:26 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Panzer IV's were great tanks at beginning, but despite upgrade after upgrade, woefully inadequate by late 1944 for survivability and hitting power.



Inadequate in armour, sure, but not inadequate in hitting power. The 75mm/L48 hit as hard as the US 76mm mounted on new Shermans, M10s and Hellcats, or the 85mm on the T34/85. It would go through a T34 of any make happily enough and had trouble only with the new super-heaviers such as Su100s, ISU-122 & 152, IS-IIs, Churchills and Sherman Jumbos.

Given the versatility of the chassis it does have a strong claim to best German tank....from war start to war end itself and spawning chassis from bridgelayers to AA tanks to the JPZ IV series. Has to get my vote.
Hohenstaufen
Visit this Community
England - South East, United Kingdom
Member Since: December 13, 2004
entire network: 2,192 Posts
KitMaker Network: 386 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 03:57 PM UTC
Sorry folks, despite everything i still have to go with the Panther. I know I'm treading some well hackneyed ground here, but there was a quantum leap between the PzIV and the Panther. Panther was a second generation tank, moving away from the '30s style design of previous German tanks (including Tiger E, which is still basically a 1930s design on steroids). With sloped armour, good gun and excellent mobility (I have read passages from veterans memoirs commenting on a Panther driving along a ditch which they comment would have caused them to throw a track for sure - not the Panther though), good speed (nearly 30mph, so at least as fast as a Sherman), this is a major advance on PzIV. The reason for not adding sloped armour to the PzIV was that the Panther was supposed to replace it. The suspension was a vast improvement, the torsion bar suspension not only gave a better ride for the crew, but enabled firing on the move; it was a different approach to the gun stability on the Sherman, instead aiming to stabilize the whole vehicle to allow shooting on the move. The PzIV was the workhorse of the Panzerwaffe, but only by default; don't get me wrong, I'm actually a PzIV fan, but it was becoming increasingly anachronistic in combat by 1944. When we are talking about "best", all the tanks mentioned had their pluses and minuses, overall the Panther is closest to a "best" in my view. As other posters have mentioned, overall most kills were probably made by Stugs, this was certainly the case in Normandy; the high scores of the Tiger aces skew the picture.
Fitz
Visit this Community
Minnesota, United States
Member Since: July 11, 2006
entire network: 439 Posts
KitMaker Network: 109 Posts
Posted: Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 12:38 PM UTC
Judged by the 3 primary characterstics commonly used to judge a tank - Firepower, Mobility and Protection - the Panther would have to be the clear winner. And why not? It was designed much later than the Panzer IV and on the basis of actual combat experience not vague theoretical concepts.

The Panther's gun and optics allowed the engagement of targets at ridiculously long ranges with a high degree of success. The HE round was adequate and the AP rounds were absolutely lethal. A powerful engine, wide tracks, large road wheels with good travel contributing to a low ground pressure made the Panther fast on and off-road. The armor, and in particular the glacis plate rendered many an allied tank and anti-tank gun obsolescent or obsolete, greatly complicating the anti-armor problem for the allies. So it should be a slam-dunk for the Panther, right?

I'm going to take a (hihgly unpopular) view that the Panther, despite all of its excellent traits and features was unsuitable as a combat vehicle or for wartime production.

Yes that;s right. I have blasphemed.

Here's my beef. The Panther was big, complicated and expensive. It exacted a great toll on scarce resources to build and could never be built in anything close to sufficient quantities to fully re-equip the Panzer Divisions. In fact, it couldn't even be built in adequate quantity to equip the Panther battalion in a Panzer division (the other battalion of course having Pzr IV's). The result was the Panther Battalions kept getting smaller. First the 4th company was dropped. Then they dropped the 4th platoon from each of the remaining companies. Then they dropped the 5th tank from each platoon. Even then there were still never enough Panther's. For Germany to win the war she needed to restore the fighting power of her army's offensive wing - the Panzer Divisions. You can't do that if you can not build enough tanks to fill an ever-shrinking TOE.

Reliability was another Achilles Heel for the Panther. At its debut in the summer of 1943 the availability rate was an astonishing 3%. Within a year they did manage to improve it to around 30% - appalling instead of merely unforgivable. Servicing the beast when it broke down was no fun either. This vehicle was not designed to be serviced in the field. Just gaining access to the final drives took 2 days worth of disassembly - a real problem when those parts were designed for a 30-ton tank, not a 45-ton tank. Want to replace a damaged road wheel? You'll have to remove 3.

And that suspension which gave such a creamy ride cross country... completely unsuited to use in its most critical operational area - the Eastern Front. Besides the problems with excessive track wear, mud packed into the wheels while moving during the day would freeze overnight rendering the tank completely imobile. Honestly.

Should we discuss the engine fires?

So, we have the Panzer IV, a technically outdated design that was continuously modified to try and keep it adequate, the result being a servicable if slow and nose-heavy vehicle with inferior cross-country mobility. Then we have the Panther, a masterpiece of firepower, mobility and protection let down by excessive complication. Both were the wrong tank for Germany. Just my humble opinion, valued at precisely $0.02.
RickJZ
Visit this Community
Ohio, United States
Member Since: March 21, 2008
entire network: 35 Posts
KitMaker Network: 4 Posts
Posted: Sunday, January 17, 2010 - 01:30 AM UTC
In my opinion, jagdpanzer IV L/70 and the hetzer
Fitz
Visit this Community
Minnesota, United States
Member Since: July 11, 2006
entire network: 439 Posts
KitMaker Network: 109 Posts
Posted: Sunday, January 17, 2010 - 05:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

In my opinion, jagdpanzer IV L/70 and the hetzer



Except for the fact that neither of those were tanks I think they are great candidates
Flivver
Visit this Community
Alabama, United States
Member Since: March 20, 2010
entire network: 36 Posts
KitMaker Network: 15 Posts
Posted: Monday, March 22, 2010 - 04:40 AM UTC
The Tiger is my favorite and this is why:

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt_tigervulnerability/index.html

I don't think any heavy tank in WWII equalled it for exagerrated reputation and vulnerability.
It could be knocked out with simple HE rounds or small arms fire into the base of the turret.

Ed
mmeier
Visit this Community
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Member Since: October 22, 2008
entire network: 1,280 Posts
KitMaker Network: 213 Posts
Posted: Monday, March 22, 2010 - 06:02 AM UTC
Question: What is a Panzer 4 "Special"? AFAIK the beasts have series letters from A to J or so. So what version/subtype is refered to as "special"?


As for the rest:

+ The Panther was actually far easier to mass-produce then the earlier Panzers. The germans DID put a lot of thought into it and had the benefit of prior production experience. Sure the overall result was more complex but the germans build around 6000 between 1943 and 1945 compared to about 9000 Panzer 4

+ Panzer IV was at the "end of lifecycle" in 1943. The gun was as big as would fit, armor as thick as doabel etc. The germans actually tried to stuff the 75L70 in the vehicle and failed twice since even the Jagdpanzer IV/70 was lacking in cross country performance (The Guderian Duck nickname comes from the tendency to bury the canon and threw the back up in the air)

+ Best tank always is a "depends on the situation".

For defence in a city I'd go with a Jagdpanzer IV/48 as a good compromise since Hetzer is to small, even more complex in manufacture, Jagdpanther is HUGE(I've seen Ute maneuver in the WTS Koblenz - not the best city fighter) Defending in country where size is less of a problem it's Jagdpanther with it's better armor and gun.

Same for tanks. Here I want a "can all" so it's either a PIVF2 and later or a Panther. Tiger is just a semi-mobile bunker, PIII lacks gun. If I can get a G-Panther or a full-production F-Panther with stabilised optics (produced and delivered in small numbers), IR gear and HL234 (tested in a Tiger) as well as an experienced crew I'd go with the Panther.

+ Flexibility

The germans used the PIV chassis for a number of variants because of a mixture between availabilty, stupidity and limited production capacities (Remember post 1960s germany was a known importer of maschine tools). Many concepts that barely worked on a PIV (or the Hybrid PIII/PIV chassis) would have been far easier on the Panther chassis. Look at the Coelian mock-up or the plans for self propelled howitzers on the Panther chassis

+ The Hetzer was used post WWII

Mainly because it was PRODUCED past WWII. The Swiss G13 tanks are post WWII productions from Skoda
mmeier
Visit this Community
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Member Since: October 22, 2008
entire network: 1,280 Posts
KitMaker Network: 213 Posts
Posted: Monday, March 22, 2010 - 06:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The Tiger is my favorite and this is why:

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt_tigervulnerability/index.html

I don't think any heavy tank in WWII equalled it for exagerrated reputation and vulnerability.
It could be knocked out with simple HE rounds or small arms fire into the base of the turret.

Ed



Actually it says "heavy maschine guns" that means Dushka and KPV weapons equal or better in size/weight/performance to a .50 M2. And even then you have to hit a 10mm target, on a moving tank that likely fires back at you.

I am not a big fan of the Tiger (1) but it wasn't as bad as some try to make it. Fat, semi-mobile and basically a throwback to the 1930s. But no that bad


(1) Well actually I LOVE Tiger and Maus and the A4/V2 missile - imagine all those wasted resources and manpower used on sensible tanks or air defence missiles. Chances are germany would have still been fighting on 6/August/1945...
spongya
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
MODELGEEK
Visit this Community
Budapest, Hungary
Member Since: February 01, 2005
entire network: 2,365 Posts
KitMaker Network: 474 Posts
Posted: Monday, March 22, 2010 - 08:11 AM UTC
Panther: I would not call a tank "best" that needed 3 days in a shop to change transmissions, or do anything for that matter, save for the basic maintenance. It was still overcomplicated, and hard to keep in working order. (Besides the sloped armor, it was very much a conservative design.) The tactical things -armor, gun, and so on- are only one side of the picture. The operational side another. You might have nominally X number of tanks, but if it takes days to fix them when they break down (and they DID break down, no matter who says what; the transmission and other drive-train components were designed for a tank 10 ton lighter -this problem was never ironed out), then you end up with a lof of tanks in a repair depot, far from the field. Yes, properly maintained, they didn't break down as much, but then again: when was ever enough time/resources to properly maintain the tanks during the last three years of the war?


But tell you what. I'll help you all with this debate. The best German tank was the captured T-34/85
mmeier
Visit this Community
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Member Since: October 22, 2008
entire network: 1,280 Posts
KitMaker Network: 213 Posts
Posted: Monday, March 22, 2010 - 09:34 AM UTC
Well, we do have the benefit of german post WWII tank design. The germans re-started from a blank slate in 1956, initially using american scrap metal (M47) and US tanks (M48A2) to fill initial needs. They (together with France) then went on a slow and massiv design process for a new tank and a new tank destroyer.

The results where:

+ A 45to/850HP tank with high mobility and relatively thin but well sloped armor (Leopard I and the similar AMX-30)

+ A 25to/500HP tank hunter (KaJaPa) with a short barreled 90mm and well sloped front

Given that France was the other big user of Panther this sounds like a Panther and a Jagdpanzer IV/48 where the main inspirations for those vehicles.

Flivver
Visit this Community
Alabama, United States
Member Since: March 20, 2010
entire network: 36 Posts
KitMaker Network: 15 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 - 02:41 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The Tiger is my favorite and this is why:

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt_tigervulnerability/index.html

I don't think any heavy tank in WWII equalled it for exagerrated reputation and vulnerability.
It could be knocked out with simple HE rounds or small arms fire into the base of the turret.

Ed



Actually it says "heavy maschine guns" that means Dushka and KPV weapons equal or better in size/weight/performance to a .50 M2. And even then you have to hit a 10mm target, on a moving tank that likely fires back at you.

I am not a big fan of the Tiger (1) but it wasn't as bad as some try to make it. Fat, semi-mobile and basically a throwback to the 1930s. But no that bad


(1) Well actually I LOVE Tiger and Maus and the A4/V2 missile - imagine all those wasted resources and manpower used on sensible tanks or air defence missiles. Chances are germany would have still been fighting on 6/August/1945...



Yes MBR, I am aware that the brief internet article itself did not list "small arms", when I stated "small arms" I am referring to actual combat accounts such as in the classic historical work :

"Against the Panzers"

United States Infantry versus German Tanks, 1944–1945: A History of Eight Battles Told through Diaries, Unit Histories and Interviews

by Allyn R. Vannoy and Jay Karamales.

You might pick up a copy for yurself for future reference.

After all this is a History Club forum is it not?

Eddie
mmeier
Visit this Community
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Member Since: October 22, 2008
entire network: 1,280 Posts
KitMaker Network: 213 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 - 05:54 AM UTC
Given that my interest in 1933-45 is purely technical it's not very likely I will ever read personalised (and therefor HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE) accounts. I'll stick to the technical stuff that can be measured etc.

As for the rest: One get's commented on what one quotes.
spongya
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
MODELGEEK
Visit this Community
Budapest, Hungary
Member Since: February 01, 2005
entire network: 2,365 Posts
KitMaker Network: 474 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 - 06:57 AM UTC
To play the devil's advocate:
1. no-one actually used technical data so far.
2. how you you synthetise into a cohesive equation everything from the armor thickness to the servicability, and how the bridges can hold up under the tank to actually give a number that you can use to rank? How do you add the lack or presence of indirect fire capability, the limited/ample ammo supply, and the availability of adequate fuel?
3. personal accounts (like how Carius disliked the Hunting Tiger, and so on) do matter a lot, because there are stuff that cannot be seen only by the numbers. (And there are things that look awesome on paper, but somehow not so much when put in practice. Like the Tiger tank. )
mmeier
Visit this Community
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Member Since: October 22, 2008
entire network: 1,280 Posts
KitMaker Network: 213 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 - 07:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

To play the devil's advocate:
1. no-one actually used technical data so far.




No one quotes raw numbers. You don't need to do that to make use of technical/non anecdotal data.


Quoted Text



2. how you you synthetise into a cohesive equation everything from the armor thickness to the servicability, and how the bridges can hold up under the tank to actually give a number that you can use to rank? How do you add the lack or presence of indirect fire capability, the limited/ample ammo supply, and the availability of adequate fuel?




Tank design is a well documented thing by now. And the rules are well published. So a tank with xHP/ton or better is considered agile, a tank with a ground pressure below z kg/cm2 is mobile etc. Add statistical figures like kills per loss and vehicle active vs. vehicle in stock and similar data and you get a decend idea how good/bad a tank is.

Even better for elder vehicles since you have solid data on the vehicle and it's enemies and can look at "what came after it". I.e the M4 was a useabel tank but like the Panzer IV or the Tiger 1 it was also a dead end. The next generation was the Pershing/Patton family or the Leopard/AMX30.

Same for other elements. We know that unless you have a combustible cartridge 105mm is the biggest single-piece round useabel and using two part ammo either slows down firing speed or needs assistance for the loader (Autoloader or a second guny). We know the benefits of stabilised optics and stabilised weapons and can judge the benefits a WWII tank would have gained from them. And so on...



Quoted Text



3. personal accounts (like how Carius disliked the Hunting Tiger, and so on) do matter a lot, because there are stuff that cannot be seen only by the numbers. (And there are things that look awesome on paper, but somehow not so much when put in practice. Like the Tiger tank. )



Actually the Tiger tank doesn't look all that great on paper. Just by looking at HP/weight and ground pressure I can tell you it's a mostly road-bound vehicle with a low tactical and lousy strategic mobility. Not being abel to be put on the railroad without changing tracks is bad and without the over-sized "Ostkette" it was restriced to stable roads simply due to the rules of ground pressure.

spongya
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
MODELGEEK
Visit this Community
Budapest, Hungary
Member Since: February 01, 2005
entire network: 2,365 Posts
KitMaker Network: 474 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 - 08:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

To play the devil's advocate:
1. no-one actually used technical data so far.

No one quotes raw numbers. You don't need to do that to make use of technical/non anecdotal data.




That's true. But many factors are working here; and these do not give a clear winner -at all. Especially that many only consider tactical factors, and disregard the operational ones. In this respect the T-34 (and even the Sherman) really were better than anything the Germans had, no matter the gun, the armor, or anything. I'd rather sit in a double-King Tiger than a Sherman, but if I had to wage war, I'd chose the Sherman over anything the Germans had -maybe except for the PnzIV.


Quoted Text



2. how you you synthetise into a cohesive equation everything from the armor thickness to the servicability, and how the bridges can hold up under the tank to actually give a number that you can use to rank? How do you add the lack or presence of indirect fire capability, the limited/ample ammo supply, and the availability of adequate fuel?



Tank design is a well documented thing by now. And the rules are well published. So a tank with xHP/ton or better is considered agile, a tank with a ground pressure below z kg/cm2 is mobile etc. Add statistical figures like kills per loss and vehicle active vs. vehicle in stock and similar data and you get a decend idea how good/bad a tank is.

Even better for elder vehicles since you have solid data on the vehicle and it's enemies and can look at "what came after it". I.e the M4 was a useabel tank but like the Panzer IV or the Tiger 1 it was also a dead end. The next generation was the Pershing/Patton family or the Leopard/AMX30.

Same for other elements. We know that unless you have a combustible cartridge 105mm is the biggest single-piece round useabel and using two part ammo either slows down firing speed or needs assistance for the loader (Autoloader or a second guny). We know the benefits of stabilised optics and stabilised weapons and can judge the benefits a WWII tank would have gained from them. And so on...



Again; these factors are debatable. Was the small size worth the limited ammo in the IS-2? Did the two-part ammunition, and the very good HE rounds made up for the lesser AT capacities of the gun? Don't forget, the tank stood up to the KT; yet the deficiencies it had might be interpreted as strength from another viewpoint. (Like the Sherman: piece of junk, but a lot could be made cheap, fast, and very easy to maintain on the field. Beats any time a tank that has excellent gun, great armor, but was put together like some Swiss clockwork, and costs its weight in gold. Of course the people burned alive in them might beg to differ.) This is when actual witness accounts are very valuable.


Quoted Text



3. personal accounts (like how Carius disliked the Hunting Tiger, and so on) do matter a lot, because there are stuff that cannot be seen only by the numbers. (And there are things that look awesome on paper, but somehow not so much when put in practice. Like the Tiger tank. )



Actually the Tiger tank doesn't look all that great on paper. Just by looking at HP/weight and ground pressure I can tell you it's a mostly road-bound vehicle with a low tactical and lousy strategic mobility. Not being abel to be put on the railroad without changing tracks is bad and without the over-sized "Ostkette" it was restriced to stable roads simply due to the rules of ground pressure.




I have one word for you. (Actually, several, but I've never been good at math.)
Tell this to the fanboys who rule the Wiki pages; in their minds both the Tiger and the KT floated gracefully from hilltop to hilltop, hardly touching the ground. While breaking the sound barrier.
Fitz
Visit this Community
Minnesota, United States
Member Since: July 11, 2006
entire network: 439 Posts
KitMaker Network: 109 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 - 10:02 AM UTC
If you guys want to split hairs nobody has provided a definition of what "best" means.