I'm in the process of planning a eastern front ww2 diorama, i want to know if a German Mobile Artillery piece called the Wespe would have been used in the eastern front... Or what about the Tamiya 1/35 German Pzkfpw. IV Ausf. D would have been used there also. And what about the russian armor? Can someone give me some direction in that way... T34's were used then right? Also where can i get a nice t34 or whatever? Thanks plz answer my questions!

The Wespe did in fact feature as part of the Eastern front, Hungary, but not I believe KURSK. The PzKpfw IV D was not involved to my knowledge.
The battle for Kursk began in the early morning, on 5th July, 1943, where the German army high command (OKH) put the best of their army: SS units of Totenkopf, LSAH - Adolf Hitler, Grossdeutchland and Das Reich, five Panzer divisions, and three infantry divisions to battle with Ivan.
Tiger I
Elefant
Panther D
Panzer III
Brummbar
Panzer IV F1 / F2 / G
Were all used. You could pick one of those.
The Panzer IV D was used extensively but not exclusively in N.Africa
HTH

thanks!

The battle in Hungary took place rather late in the war, no ?
That would mean that on the soviet side you'd find some T37-76 mod 43 and some T34-85.
For Kursk, you'd find T34-76 mod 42 and T34-76 mod 43.

DML (Dragon models) is supposed to release a T34-76 mod 43 later this year. There is a model by tamiya but it's an old model and I don't know how good it is.
DML, Zvezda and maquette also have some T34-85 that are supposed to be quite good.

If you want a somewhat similar vehicle to the wespe a Grille would be acceptable for kursk also...

-Steve

Scott ... Desert Fox say's the Pz Kpfw IV Ausf D & Wespe were not involved at Kursk .
...... Actually, they were both very much involved at Kursk 1943. The Wepe made it's debut at Kursk !Variants of the Pz.IV at Kursk were: Pz IV Ausf D - Pz IV Ausf E - Pz IV Ausf F - Pz IV Ausf F2 - Pz IV Ausf G - Pz IV Ausf H .

Now if your talking abount Operation Barbarossa, the German Invasion of Russia in 1941, NO, there would not have been any Wespe Batteries and the Pz.IV's that would have been fielded in the opening assault's in 1941 were: Pz.IV Ausf B - Pz.IV Ausf C - Pz.IV Ausf D - Pz.IV Ausf E.

Also the divisions that D-Fox listed for Kursk were absolutely there but was only a fraction of the MASSIVE GERMAN ARMY that advanced into Kursk salient and the the HUGE tank battle which was actually fought on the plains of Prokhorovka.

..... General Models 9.Army in the North ( Orel Sector ) alone combined three panzer corps & two infantry corps . A total that equalled 19 ARMORED division went into Kursk. All in all there was a GRAND TOTAL of 900,000 to 1,000,000 German soldier's and 2700 German TANKS ! (and not to leave out, there were also artillerie & aircraft ) .

To give you an idea, below is the "Order of Battle " of the elements of Von Mansteins Army Group South at Kursk, ..... which was only "a small piece of the pie " of the German forces there. ( Also there was Army Group North - Army Group Center - Army Group Finland - Army Groups A & D and the Luftwaffe fighters & bombers ) ...... IN MY EYE'S, THIS WAS THE MOTHER OF ALL BATTLES, IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND ! ....AND WAS " THE SWANSONG " OF GERMANY'S ARMOR JUGGERNAUT

]ARMY GROUP SOUTH
24Rum Infantry Division
• II/221 Light Howitzer Abt.
• 213 Security Division
• 444 Security Division Staff only?
• 454 Security Division
• 1 Panzer Army
• • 209 Sturmgeschutz Abt.
• • 24 Panzer Corps Izyum; Reserve
• • • 17 Panzer Division Pz Regt Staff 39 detached to 48 Pz Corps; 17 PD retains tanks; PzAbt II/39
• • • 23 Panzer Division PzRgt201 + 7 SiG
• • • 5SSV Panzergrenadier Div. Wiking - 1 Pz Bn + 5 Art Abt
• • 30 Corps Lisichansk-Krasny Liman
• • • 38 Infantry Division 2 IR + 3 Art Abt only
• • • 387 Infantry Division
• • • 62 Infantry Division
• • 40 Panzer Corps
• • • 257 Infantry Division
• • • 333 Infantry Division 3 Art Abt
• • • 46 Infantry Division 3 Art Abt only
• • • I/115 Light Howitzer Abt.
• • 57 Panzer Corps
• • • 15 Infantry Division 3 Art Abt
• • • 198 Infantry Division 3 Art Abt
• • • 328 Infantry Division 2 Art Abt
• • • I/51 Light Howitzer Abt.
• Luftflotte 4 Dnjepropetrovsk
• 4 Panzer Army
• • 312 Artillery ( Kommando Hohrer ).
• • 2./413 Bridging Column One company only
• • 671 Bridging Column
• • 922 Bridging Column ( Staff only; controlling army bridging assets ).
• • 2 SS Panzer Corps
• • • 1LSSAH Panzergrenadier Div. ( Single Pz Bn; 4 Art Abt ).
• • • 2SSDR Panzergrenadier Div. ( 5 Art Abt; only one Pz Bn ).
• • • 3SST Panzergrenadier Div. ( 5 Art Abt )
• • • 132 Artillery Kommando
• • • 1Lehr Rocket Launcher Regt. 3 Abt - ( 2 of 12 150mm launchers; 6 tubes each; 1 of 12 210mm; 5 tubes each; + some SP )
• • • 55 Rocket Launcher Regt.
• • • 861 Light Howitzer Abt.
• • • III/818 Light Howitzer Abt.
• • • 11 Light Bridging Coy
• • • 2./41 Light Bridging Column
• • • 21 Light Bridging Column
• • • 31 Light Bridging Column
• • • 573 Light Bridging Column
• • • 840 Med Bridging Column
• • • 929 Bridging Column ( Staff only; controlling corps bridging assets )
• • • 627 Eng/Pioneer Bn ( Motorised )
• • • 666 Eng/Pioneer Bn ( Motorised )
• • • 680 Eng/Pioneer ( Staff )
• • 48 Panzer Corps
• • • 11 Panzer Division ( Half-strength at start; PzRgt15; 13 FlammPz )
• • • 167 Infantry Division
• • • 3 Panzer Division ( Half-strength at start; Pz.Rgt.6 )
• • • GD Panzergrenadier Div. ( 163 tanks; 35 AG at start; 4 Art Abt )
• • • 101 Heavy Howitzer Abt.
• • • 122 Artillery Kommando
• • • 144 Artillery Kommando
• • • 3./731 Heavy Artillery Abt.1
• • • 616 AA Battalion
• • • 70 Artillery Regt. ( Staff only )
• • • 842 Light Howitzer Abt. ( 100mm guns )
• • • I/1 Heavy Rocket Regt. ( I.Abt only )
• • • I/108 Light Howitzer Abt.
• • • III/109 Mortar Abteilung
• • • 22 Light Bridging Col
• • • 609 Light Bridging Col
• • • 639 Light Bridging Col
• • • 640 Light Bridging Col
• • • 641 Light Bridging Col
• • • 642 Light Bridging Col
• • • 643 Light Bridging Col
• • • 644 Light Bridging Col
• • • 645 Light Bridging Col
• • • 646 Light Bridging Col
• • • 647 Light Bridging Col
• • • 648 Light Bridging Col
• • • 649 Light Bridging Col
• • • 676 Light Bridging Col
• • • 841 Med Bridging Col
• • • 938 Bridging Column ( Staff only; controlling corps bridging assets )
• • • 1Lehr Eng/Pioneer Bn ( Motorised )
• • • 48 Eng/Pioneer Bn ( Motorised )
• • • 515 Eng/Pioneer ( Staff )
• • • 10 Panzer Brigade ( Staff controlling 51/52, using PzRgt Staff 39 )
• • • 39 Panzer Regiment ( Detached from 17 Pz Div; Staff only, controlling 51/52 Panther Abts below )
• • • 51 Panzer Battalion Panthers
• • • 52 Panzer Battalion Panthers
• • • 911 Sturmgeschutz Abt.
• • 52 Corps
• • • 255 Infantry Division 2 IR
• • • 332 Infantry Division 3 Art Abt
• • • 57 Infantry Division
• • • 137 Artillery Kommando
• • • 23 Light Bridging Col
• • • 80 Light Bridging Col
• • • 677 Eng/Pioneer ( Staff )
• • • 74 Eng/Pioneer Bn
• 6 Army
• • 16 Panzergrenadier Div.
• • 243 Sturmgeschutz Abt.
• • 277 Sturmgeschutz Abt.
• • 17 Corps
• • • 294 Infantry Division
• • • 302 Infantry Division 3 Art Abt only
• • • 306 Infantry Division
• • 29 Corps
• • • 111 Infantry Division
• • • 15LW Infantry Division ( 2 IR + 3 Art Abt only )
• • • 17 Infantry Division ( 3 Art Abt only )
• • • 336 Infantry Division
• • • I/53 Light Howitzer Abt.
• • 4.Corps
• • • 3 Mountain Division ( 2 IR + 2 Art Abt only )
• • • 304 Infantry Division
• • • 335 Infantry Division
• Army Detachment Kempf
• • 603 Bridging Column
• • 310 Artillery Kommando Hohrer - senior Arko
• • 781 Artillery Regt. Staff only (zbv)
• • 3 Panzer Corps Belgorod
• • • 168 Infantry Division 4 Arty Bns + Bn Nebelwerfer
• • • 19 Panzer Division PzRgt27
• • • 6 Panzer Division PzRgt11; + 14 FlammPz
• • • 7 Panzer Division PzRgt25
• • • 153 AA Regiment
• • • 3 Artillery Kommando
• • • 54 Rocket Launcher Regt.
• • • 612 Artillery Regt. Staff only (zbv)
• • • 857 Heavy Artillery Abt. 21cm MTR
• • • 99 AA Regiment
• • • II/62 Light Howitzer Abt. II Abt only
• • • II/71 Heavy Howitzer Abt. 15cm How; II Abt only
• • • 1./505 Light Bridging Col One company only
• • • 110 Light Bridging Col
• • • 2./411 Light Bridging Col One company only
• • • 2S Light Bridging Col ?Supplemental
• • • 602 Light Bridging Col
• • • 842 Bridging Column BrukoI
• • • 843 Bridging Column BrukoI
• • • 9 Light Bridging Col
• • • 127 Eng/Pioneer Bn 1 Company detached
• • • 601 Eng/Pioneer Regt
• • • 651 Eng/Pioneer Bn
• • • 674 Eng/Pioneer Regt
• • • 70 Eng/Pioneer Bn
• • • 228 Sturmgeschutz Bde. StuG Abt ?
• • • 503 Heavy Tank Bn. Tigers
• • 42 Corps Volchansk-Alekseyevka
• • • 161 Infantry Division
• • • 282 Infantry Division
• • • 39 Infantry Division 3 Art Abt
• • • 107 Artillery Kommando
• • • 2./800 Heavy Artillery Abt. 15cm; one battery
• • • 77 AA Regiment
• • • 620Mtn Eng/Pioneer Bn
• • • 560 PanzerJager Bn. Hvy PzJg - equipped with Hornisse
• • Raus (XI) Corps Belgorod-Volchansk
• • • 106 Infantry Division
• • • 320 Infantry Division 3 Art Abt
• • • 153 Artillery Kommando
• • • 4 AA Regiment
• • • 48 AA Regiment
• • • 52 Rocket Launcher Regt.
• • • 7 AA Regiment
• • • I/213 Light Howitzer Abt. 10.5cm How; I Abt only
• • • I/77 Light Howitzer Abt. 10.5cm How; I Abt only
• • • II/1 Heavy Rocket Regt. II Abt only
• • • II/54 Artillery Regt. 10.5cm How; II Abt only
• • • 102 Light Bridging Col
• • • 151 Heavy Bridging Col
• • • 2./407 Light Bridging Col One company only
• • • 2./410 Light Bridging Col One company only
• • • 2./60 Light Bridging Col One company only
• • • 20 Light Bridging Col
• • • 297 Light Bridging Col
• • • 610 Light Bridging Col
• • • 666 Light Bridging Col
• • • 7 Light Bridging Col
• • • 8 Light Bridging Col
• • • 18 Eng/Pioneer Staff zbv Controlling Corps Eng assets
• • • 52 Eng/Pioneer Regt
• • • 393 Sturmgeschutz Bde. Company only ? Abteilung ?
• • • 905 Sturmgeschutz Bde. Abteilung ?


I"M GOING TO BED NOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

- ralph

Yesterday I saw a documentary on Discovery channel about the battle of Kursk and I`m sure I saw a battery of wespes firing at the Enemy I also have seen a couple of PZKFW 4 but as I can`t keep them apart I don`t know if I was looking to a d or not.

but if the television was right then there were definitely wespes at Kursk

Faust the D's were there as were the Wespes. I didn't stay up until 4:15 in the morning to post what I did on the first page, just so I could get some " finger exercise ' ( lol )

- ralph

Now Ralph old boy give it a rest already, you walking encycolpedia!!!!! #:-)

I agree with Ralph though, both Hummel and Wespe made their debut in Kursk.

as for Pz III, J, M/N, L, and K were used as well.

And don't forget the halftrucks.

the Famos, and the Mine vehicles.

german pretty much put all their armor might in Kursk. And for Tiger I, it's only early version used, so no zimmerit.

Panther, only the D.

no elefant, only the Ferdinand.

And Nashorn too? Ralph correct me if I am wrong about the Nashorn.

Hi Dave !!!!! .........Yes, we can't forget the halftrack's & Famo prime movers etc . etc.
..... GEEEEEZ - WHAT A FREAKING JUGGERNAUT ! ( me thinks, the Allies would have been in serious trouble if this force found victory at Kursk and had all that armor & manpower to turn it's attention West. ...... BIG TROUBLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ).

And your right again about the Nashorn. It was at Kursk also. Here is a list of the major AFV's the Germans fielded in the Kursk salient.
Pz Jg I
Pz II F
Marder II
Pz III J
Pz III J/1
Pz III L
Pz III M
Pz III N
Pz III Flamm
Pz IV D
Pz IV E
Pz IV F
Pz IV F2
Pz IV G
Pz IV H
Pz V D Panther
Pz VI E Tiger
StuG III B
StuG III E
StuG III F
StuG III F/8
StuG III G
StuH 42
Marder III (t) H
Marder III (t) M
SturmPz IV Brummbar
Pz Jg III/IV Hornisse/Nashorn
Pz Jg VI Ferdinand


- ralph

You have to take all Discovery channel (and A&E, History, etc.) documentaries with a very large grain of salt as far as visual accuracy goes. These same people have B-29's flying out of Italy and SBD Dautless dive bombers regularly attacking Pearl Harbor. Much of the fottgae is simply stock film used to depict general German, Russian, or Allied armor. Aircraft are used generically, especially gunsight footage. The commentary may be good, but the visuals are not always. As the song goes, "Believe only half of what you see."

Yumpin yimminy> ask a simple question. Seriously what it all boils down to is if the Germans and Russians had it they used it, They even used each others stuff. Have fun with it brother> You could probably depict a captured t-34/76 vs a captured Pzkw 1V caus it more than likely happened on that front.

Is a Brummbar early version without side skirts correct for Kursk? Someone let me know.
Thanks...

Correct. even with the skirt, in the battels or on the way to the battlefield, skirts are very easy to be torn off. So it's no surprise see some tank only had the rail for attaching the side skirt, but all the skirts were torn off.

The Wespe (Wasp) was a self propelled howitzer wich was built in a Pz.Kpfw II chasis and armed with a 10.5cm howitzer. Operation Zitadelle (July 1943) was the first major action for the Wespe.
Pz.Kpfw IV Ausf D were used in the Eastern Front from the begining of Operation Barbarosa (June 1941). I supose they remain in use up to 1943.
The principal tank for the Soviets was the T34. They have the models T34/76 and the T34/85. The first one from years 42 - 43 and the second one from 44 on. They also used the KV and JS heavy tanks and asault guns such as SU 85 - SU 100 - SU 122 - SU 152 - JSU 122 - JSU 152.

You can make a nice dio using the Wespe and a Pz.Kpfw IV Ausf F2 or G for the German side. For the Soviets a T34/76 (43) or a SU 152. These three may go together in a dio represnting a battle in the Eastern Front in 1943.

you guys are so helpful :-)

Thanks ss-74...

I agree with the earlier post about 'documentaries'.. I don't know how many times I've seen Wespe or Long Nose 75 mm Pz IV variants on documentaries about the Invasion of France (and neither of them would exist for a couple of years)...

Also.. Battle of Britain documentaries showing late war 109's taking off and flying (they stand out because of the larger rounder nose)...

So what your 'seeing' on TV may not be true... the commentary might be.. but the pictures a lot of time aren't.

LOL I've always wondered why they don't call one of us Modelling nuts to come on as a technical advisor when they make these films...

Hmm, maybe we should be getting our resumes together for a mass mailing to History Channel.