Much as I believe in the free-market and the huge advantages that competition brings, perhaps the time has come for some more cooperation?

It's great what is available, what is confirmed and what IS being designed. HOWEVER, it does seem a touch 'wasteful', when (for example) there will be:

THREE Strykers from three different manufacturers

Three 38 (t)s from two manufacturers

TWO Marder IIIs (from a total of THREE manufacturers)

Now, I don't know the 'ins and outs' of the situation(s) but, as a consumer, it would be wonderful to have these companies contact each other or sit down and have a beer and discuss areas of MUTUAL interest.

Now, we are talking here about the FOUR technically most innovative companies in plastic kit production. Not some back-street operation with a CAD program and 3 employees.

So, NOT a criticism. a plea. Please guys, start talking!

Maybe one of the questions is "why do they put 3 Strykers at the same time".
In Lyon where I live, if you want to buy a music instrument, you go in one specific road , and there you will find a good dozen of shops all selling the same guitars or whatever. When i first saw that i said "those people are stupid, they make concurrence between each others!". Then one friend told me that it was a basic rule of commerce, that you crowd the same shops at the same place and it works, the people sure compare, but they tend to buy more overall.
So maybe the fact the companies put out their 3 Strykers at the same time is more or less related to this commerce rule -there's also because you don't stop seeing Strykers at TV, that it's a good looking machine, and there's a big cake to share there too. But it may work for 38t or marders eh?
my 2 euro cents but no more!
And anyway, Jim "modellers love spending money"

From a commercial point of view it makes complete sense. They're competing. We end up with the best models at the best prices. What you're suggesting is a cartel. They're usually illegal. :-)
On the serious side, each of the manufacturers bring somehting different to a kit...........giving modellers more to choose from. Besides, if it became more profitable to produce kits that nobody else was producing, then they would do so. They aim to make a proft after all.
Vinnie

Also 2 Staghounds!
I agree it is a shame that they can't co-operate more as AFV Club and Tristar have on the Marder IIIH but on the other hand if you look at the Editor's Blog on PMMs it is clear that Dragon are more interested in pouring forth their bile.

It is a shame as they make very good kits and I have a heap of them but it makes me want to choose Tristar before Dragon (all other things being approximately equal).


Regards,
Roger

Vinnie,

You couldn't be more exact : it's exactely a cartel, strictly and strongly forbidden by anti competition rules. In France, the last cartel fined by the Competition council was in mobile operator business. They were 3, it costed them 534 millions of Euros overall ...
But the good point of that is the big 4 manufacturers does all the same products, which makes room for smaller companies, my beloved Miniart and Masterbox, to produce something different from the other 4...

Jim I understand your point, all of them making the same vehicules reduce de facto the choice..The only good effect of that should be prices supposed to lower..but as each of them put more and more technologies and research in each kit, I think it won't happen..
That's my 1 zloty opinion..

Julien

No, no advocating cartels or a carving-up of the market. Rather what I would suggest is informal contacts. The problem is that the current 'Players' - DML, AFV Club, Trumpeter and Tristar are all (arguably) at the same level technically and it would be excellent if we had (as in a recent case) an agreement between Tasca and DML over the Firefly in other words, with the arrival of Tasca's kit, DML don't (at least in the short-term) have to start thinking about re-tooling theirs, The AFV Club/Tristar Marder III is another example of co-operation without creating monopolies.

Simply put, do we really need TWO PzIV bridgelayers when we're short of German heavy transports?

Yes, it does make economic sense (sort of) but doesn't the existing situation force the manufacturers to be constantly playing an expensive game of 'catch-up'?

I'm not advocating cartels, but it does seem like an interesting topic for debate....

In my industry, in the U.S any "informal" meetings between competeing businesses would be a violation of the Brown Act (anti-trust) and is strictly forbidden. There is no way of telling if there is price fixing or other unfair practices going on if the meetings are informal. Too many opportunities for large businesses to do something shady.

C.

Don't worry Jim, we won't tell it to the police :-) :-) .
Charles you are right, when you are caught out talking with a competitor, from the antitrust authority point of view you are done. I worked on several antitrust cases, specially in the US but also in Europe. They is nearly no way to defend yourself when there is evidence of discussions with your competitor..

For me, the result will be the consolidation of the sector, for sure !! And thus the fall of some non or half leaders..
While you may buy two different models, like a panther G and a sherman Firefly from two different companies, you won't buy in the same year two panther G !!! (Me I won't anyway !)

I don't see the economic interest to do that ?? Maybee it's due to a silly competition consisting on who will produce the best accurate/detailled model, struggling on the accuracy of the tiny bolt inside the cab, behind the seat...?? After all, some modellers are like that, why manufacter weren't, as they are also modellers...

For me it's money throw by the window as we say in French !!
And once again, I don't feel we get the normal result of competition, I mean LOWER PRICES !

To conclude, let's talk about the cooperation between Tristar and AFV club. The modelling world is so weird, modellers are always trying to search a needle in a hay bundle. If the cooperation result in a split in the parts produced by each other (the upper hull for tristar for example, the lower for AFV), you will see some modellers reviewing the kit and telling the lower hull is 2mm short and that it left two rivets in that part, so don't buy the Tristar/AFV kit ! (there was a recent debate on the Dragon armor forum which ended like this, if my memory is pk) And I bet you there will be open war between those two, rejecting responsability on each other..

What would be clever should be cooperation between PE and plastic Kit manufacturer or with resin figures producers or Dragon Gen 2 figs combined with vehicules. Dragon USA started to try this combined offer, don't know if it's a success. I don't know you, but I'm really fed up to spend equal and sometimes more money in aftermarket than for the kit in itself.....the prices could be lowered as the PE company will save money in distribution and packaging costs, the larger company will gain consumers by selling a complete detail product without investing in PE..

Best,
Julien

Julien, I think you're right on the money.
While I can see Jim's point, having the choice between 3 kits of one AFV is actually a great thing - we'd all be complaining if there was only one kit out there and we were'nt happy with it. The advantage of choice also caters for modellers who have different areas of interest (an easy to build kit for a beginner or a more accurate kit for the expert for example).
I think Julien made an excellent point about aftermarket resin and PE kits being available with the original kits. I love the way Dragon is now supplying PE parts and other details with their model, and if aftermarket companies and kitmakers could team up we could see a range of high quality kits at a more reasonable price emerging, especially as most aftermarket kits are built with a specific manufacturers kit in mind.
Food for thought?

James

Jim's point seems to be a rational argument for diversity to me.

Are these Strykers all the same variant?

Jim

It wouldn't matter if they were. The point has already been made that it's we, the modellers, that benefit from the competition, because that's what it is. Each tries to make their variant better than their competitors, and therefore sell more.

Vinnie

I think the model companies are actually listening to the modelers more than we think they are. .A couple years ago, quite a few people were talking about the lack of quality 38t's. So the R&D boys (of several companies) go hmmmmm and start putting together the team to research and produce 38t's.

The companies just happened to select a product to fill the same void at the same time.

Whatever the cause, we modelers are the ones who win!

Of course. How stupid of me.

But do we the modellers really benefit? Do we really have X amount of kits, all of varying degrees of quality and price? Or do we merely have X amount of kits at very similar prices? Is this really perfect supply and demand at work? Is the Keynsian model (if I remember Economics 101a correctly) at work?

I must admit I find it interesting that the top 4 plastic injection kit manufacturers at competing directly for a very small piece of the pie. I wonder if anyone's told them that there are other pieces of this huge pie that haven't been tasted yet?.

Yep. They are all the M1126 Infantry Carrier Version.

Jeff

I would also like to see some different kits from different kitmakers.they don't do the ''odd or rare '' subjects because the argument is that these won't sell in big numbers.well maybe not that specific kit but i think that customers will buy more on the whole brand if they knew that this brand is willing to listen to its customers
and give them want they want so they will stick to the brand as a reward and sell more in that way

greetings jeroen,.

I don't expect that you'll see much cooperation between individual companies, especially considring that there doesn't seem to be much talk within individual companies. For example, how many Pz IV kits have we seen from Dragon/Cyber Hobby over the last year or year and a half? 5? 6? Granted, there are different varients represented (but seriously, put a gun to the average modeller's head and ask him the difference betwen a Pz IV B and a IV C), but combined with the 2 or 3 Tristar kits produced at the same time the market has been seriously flooded. In the end did the glut of Pz IV choices do either company any good?

I don't see it as real competition at all. There is only X demand for Stryker kits. With all four releasing Strykers at the same time they are effectively dividing up X demand by four right off the bat. The competition is really only for the Stryker. The rest of the community that demands kits W, Y and Z do not truely benefit.

However if each company were releasing a different kit of similar complexity at the same time, say a Stryker, Tiger, Sherman, Panther, then each manufacturer would have to design, price and market their kit competitively to convince builders to buy their kit instead of the other guy's kit. Competition would set in to convince me to part with my money to buy the Stryker instead of the Tiger. That would be competition beneficial the community.

It's not about competition over a single product but competition across the industry that counts

I think the kits get made because of the buzz or online chatter from informal polls. A lot of talk is generated, everyone says they will buy one so the company(s) makes a decision to go ahead and produce one.

I also think they try to trump one another in getting their kit to the market first. Other times I think they try to trick the other guy into releasing their kit before it is ready. That way, the second guy to release his kit will have the more accurate model, perhaps incorporating some new features not previously seen.

Competition is good, but I think the simultaneous release of the same or similar kits takes its toll. For instance, Skybow (a smaller company) finally releases the M41A3 and AFV Club does as well. That competition basically put Skybow out of business. It took them several years to get another model released, the 1/48 Tiger early and late.

Skybow is a good example - technically they were the most advanced (and punished?) of ANY manufacturer of their time. Fortunately, they are still available through AFV Club though.

It is also a question of marketing - a few years ago, companies would get their products exposure through reviews and advertising in the specialized modelling press. Now, a product is announced one day and they have hundreds (more likely thousands) of potential customers reading and discussing these new items on the on-line forums and bulletin boards.

Going back to the original question though, it would be rather on the innocent side to describe the current situation as 'perfect competition' nor do I agree it works ENTIRELY in the best interest of the consumer. What is needed is the choice, but also the diversity - much of the time that comes from a better system of consultation and market research than that which is used at the moment.

There is consultation and awareness from the manufacturers but perhaps not as much as we would imagine....

Not to get too political here, but I really don't see that happening due to the---well---polticial and cultural issues with these three companies.

Let's see here. A "Stryker" from AFV Club, Trumpeter, and DML? If I'm not mistaken...

* AFV Club/Hobby Fan is Taiwanese
* Trumpeter is China
* DML is still in Hong Kong (which is part of China but under "Special governance)

======
* Academy is Korean
* Tamiya is Japanese
* Shanghal DML is in China
* HobbyBoss is China
* Skybow is Taiwanese

How can I put this diplomatically?

Well, the truth is after all these decades, these people still don't see eye-to-eye. Don't only think of the current governments, but the past history between those governments (think "wars" and you'll know what I mean). Heck, some of these people don't even see eye-to-eye in a crowded classroom, let alone on the marriage altar. As such, these people view themselves as distinct and different, hence three Strykers from three distinct and separate companies with the main belief that theirs is "better" than the other guy's.

Not only that, aren't some of those companies spinoffs of the parent company? Perhaps some managers, employees, and bosses don't see eye-to-eye with their former parent company.

If the CEOs of these companies can put their national differences aside, that's great, but old grudges die hard, especially when one hates their former boss.

The "mutual" interest for model producers is profit and future marketing potential. There is no sense of public duty that drives producers to make a certain model.

This type of competition/marketing is done everywhere, in every company around the world. It's how they survive as a business.

Motor Vehicle producers aren't aren't going to sit down together and come up with an agreement for one of them to make a car, the other a truck, and the other a van just so there aren't too many choices for consumers.

Why are there multiple brands of household consumer products? Because everyone thinks they can build a better mousetrap.

To limit the amount of the same type of kits produced is just limiting a company's consumers.

There has never been a Stryker kit produced so you darn sure the producers with common sense are going to jump all over it...and smart to do it all at the same time so that no individual company gets all the glory.

Dragon was very smart to state they are producing the "Stryker Family"...no other company has been this bold to say they plan to produce other variants and it gets folks on forums talking about the other variants they want produced. With two words they have set themselves up for future profits.

No disagreement here. However, no-one has mentioned any 'Public Duty' in this thread - to do so. IMO, would be naive in the extreme...

I do question though, in an economic sense how this rush to produce the same model of the same vehicle is actually going to help any manufacturer. Does anyone seriously believe that the majority of models sold are to people who are actively involved in sites like this or subscribers to modelling magazines? The majority of purchasers will pick up the box and compare price, box-art etc and base their decision on this basis. Much as we'd like to tell ourselves otherwise, the majority AREN'T going to go through a series of reviews.The ones who continue to sell more are the ones who have the biggest penetration in the retail outlets...

I’m no lawyer and IIRC this would be something such as a Joint Purchasing Arrangement/Buyers’ Cartel, consumers and other entities, to ensure ‘fair trade’, have used these legally and effectively for many years. (NO, I’m NOT advocating the starting of one!)

Also as almost all Antitrust/Competition laws are set up to protect the consumer, it is virtually impossible to prosecute consumer Joint Purchasing Arrangements/Buyers’ Cartels. The one or two times these have been prosecuted were under other laws (usually liable, where unfair statements have been made).

As Kitmaker Network is a listed business, if Staff_Jim or anyone in his ‘employ’ suggests this, then Yes it is illegal (undue influence or some such).




Vinnie, I disagree, also history shows this point of view to be wrong as well. Remember when Tamiya and Bandai ‘tangled’.

Undeniably Dragon seems to have a bee in their bonnet with Tristar (Unfortunately this isn’t breaching Antitrust/Competition laws, it’s called competition).

I bought Dragon’s Panzer IV Ausf E (3 in 1), it is NOT the best model at the best price. Next time I’ll wait for the reviews and ‘rivet counters’ to finish their discussions. Plus, in the UK, Tristar’s kits (except for the Pz 1 A early) are cheaper than Dragon’s kits.

Perhaps "Please guys, start thinking!" is what Jim really wanted to say? It just comes off a little more critical.

Sorry but mostly simultaneous releases of the same vehicle, ship, plane, etc. are not a good business move. Mostly because of the fact that yes one of these kits will likely be the superior release. We will all say how Brand X is the best release and not to bother to buy brand Y and Z. BUT.... if brand Y & Z had both made different variants of Strykers... well that would still give many modelers the reason to buy all three at some point.

Cheers,
Jim