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THERMOPYLAE...Pure Courage..DISCUSSION?
TreadHead
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Posted: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 06:23 AM UTC
Howdy All,

With the upcoming film "300" due out in early March of this year I thought I'd name drop ol' King Leonidas' endeavours to hold back the Persian hordes at the pass of Thermopylae in northern Greece.
This, one of the finest examples of surmounting impossible odds, has always been one of my favourite historical engagements. For those who may not be familiar {of which there probably aren't many around here }, here is a quick synopsis....



The Battle of Thermopylae took place during the Greece-Persia war in roughly the 5th century BC. Some 30 city-states of central and southern Greece met in Corinth to devise a common defense (others, including the oracle at Delphi, sided with the Persians). They agreed on a combined army and navy under Spartan command, with the Athenian leader Themistokles providing the strategy. The Spartan king Leonidas led the army to the pass at Thermopylae, near present-day Lamia, the main passage from northern into central Greece.

One of the best points at which to hold off an invader was at Thermopylae, a narrow valley adjacent to the sea. The attacker could not pass to the seaward side, and to go inland would mean a significant detour. Other armies could risk this, but Xerxes could not.

On the other hand, a defender could take a stand with comparatively few men. A wall had once been built here, and a small fort. The Greeks rebuilt the wall and waited.

The Greek strategy was to delay the land force and to defeat the Persians at sea, then starve the Persian army. It should have worked, but from the beginning everything seemed to go wrong.

To begin with, the Greek army was surprised to see the Persians arrive so soon. They had hoped to get more reinforcements. On the other side, Xerxes had excellent information and knew that the Greeks were waiting for him. He set up camp on the plain below the pass. He was confident, but the army was so large that it could not afford to wait in any one place for very long.

He sent scouts up the valley to ascertain the nature of the opposition. The Spartans had duty on the outside wall, where they were waiting watchfully. The scouts were astounded to see the Spartans doing calisthenics and braiding their hair. Xerxes could not believe they intended to fight against hopeless odds. He announced his presence and waited four days for them to leave.

The Greeks did not leave. Exasperated, and aware of his supply situation, Xerxes ordered an attack on the fifth day. He sent the Medes against the Greeks, ordering Spartans be taken alive, so confident he was of easy victory.

The Spartans retreated, running away, even to the point of turning their backs on the enemy. The Medes, sure that they were winning the victory they had expected, broke ranks to pursue, whereupon the Spartans turned and fought savagely. After sharp fighting, the Medes were defeated.

Xerxes now sent in the Immortals, his best troops. The Spartans employed the same strategy, with the same results. Xerxes was furious. Another day's fighting yielded no better for the Persians.

The fighting was all the more remarkable in that the Greeks had failed utterly in the sea battle and the Persians had complete control of the sea. The sole purpose now for the battle was to delay the inevitable as long as possible.

At this point, treachery undid their heroic efforts.

Ephialtes, a man from Malis, went to King Xerxes and told him that he knew of a goat path that went around the Greek position and debouched behind their lines. After initial skepticism, Xerxes discovered the man was telling the truth. He made his preparations.

The Greeks knew of the path, of course. There were, in fact, more than one path, winding among the mountains. The men of Phocis were posted on the most likely path, but the Persians slipped past them by way of a different path under cover of night.

The Greeks learned of the treachery near morning. They would barely have time to escape from the trap. Leonidas told the other Greeks to return home, to fight another day, but the Spartans stayed. The Thespians and Thebans joined them. There were no more than a few thousand who stayed.

Greeks knew they were about to die and they fought all the more fiercely for it. The Spartans put up the stoutest resistance, taking their stand on a little hill and fighting in a circle facing outward with enemies all around.

When Leonidas was killed, he was some distance away. Some of the Spartans formed a tight group, fought their way to his body, picked it up, then fought their way back to the main group on the hill.

The Persians seemed utterly unable to annihilate the last 300 Spartans. They demanded the body of Leonidas in return for the Spartan's lives, but the men refused to abandon the body of their King, declaring: "A Spartan leaves the field with his shield or upon it"

At last, the Spartans were killed by a hail of spears and arrows, the Persians fearing to close with these fearsome warriors.

Information distributed with permission. Copyright © 1999, Ellis L. Knox.

The Greeks lost the battle. They had come hoping for a victory and instead had been routed. But Thermopylae was always hailed as a triumph for Greek arms because the Persian army was crucially delayed.

Thermopylae allowed the Greeks time to organize. The Athenians continued to build their ships in order to take control of the seas again.


The Greeks were actually heartened by the example of Leonidas and the 300 Spartans plus allies who fought at Thermopylae. The battle served as an example to officers and soldiers alike of what courage and self-sacrifice could achieve. It is still remembered today as such an example.


I have always been overwhelmed by trying to imagine how the actual act of holding off such an unimaginable amount of sheer, armed humanity was accomplished by such an abysmally small number of men. Unlike some of the Kung-Fu movies where one might see one Kung-Fu Master fighting off a superior number of badguys, engaging them one or two at a time while all the rest of the badguys are just jumpimg around looking tough, I think the battle at Thermopylae was a bit more.......real.

Opines or comments anyone?

Tread.
staff_Jim
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Posted: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 09:01 AM UTC
I agree it was a seminal moment in military history. There is a quote that fits this which has been poping up in my Medieval 2 game (and I am paraphrasing)


Quoted Text

It is better to be present with 10 men than absent with 10,000.



As for the movie I saw the preview last night. It looks like they have mix history with Greek mythology. Weird creatures and all.

Cheers,
Jim
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Posted: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 09:13 AM UTC
I watched a program a few days ago about this battle, extremely interesting I have to say....
Good to see you again Gordon!
Halfyank
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Posted: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 11:45 AM UTC
Gordon, where have you been guy? Great to see you back.

This is a great post. One point about you analogy of martial arts. Long ago, when swords had just been invented, I took a fencing class. The instructor had us do a little skit to put on when showing off for other classes. He'd have one guy, the smallest of us all, stand alone and try to hold off five or six others. The five or six guys would all approach side by side, nearly touching, and the one guy could easily hold them off. After he got pretty cocky about doing it the multiple guys would then separate and come after him from all directions. It was a different story then.

I imagine that is the biggest thing about Thermopylae. (By the way I always remember that name because of the the name Thermopylae because of the race between the clipper ship of that name and the Cutty Sark.) The narrow pass wouldn't allow the Persians to fully deploy and use their huge numbers effectively. I guess it doesn't matter if you've got 10000 facing 300, if only 300 of yours can get at the 300 of theirs at one time.

As to the movie I'll withhold judgment. Frankly it looks like far more Hollywood, than History. I'm not sure if the original movie, The 300 Spartans, was any more historically accurate, but it certainly seems to me to be based on the trailers I've seen.

Don't be a stranger.

hellbent11
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Posted: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 01:07 PM UTC
I remember in bootcamp our Senior Drill Instructor was giving us a mini lecture about "using our heads" basically to "think outside the box." He made a statement about being able to fight us all off at once. We were naturally perplexed and couldn't figure out how this could be done.

He then pointed to the "hatch" and said he would stand just on the other side and could whip the lot of us. He went on to explain that at best we (about 75 of us) could only get two maybe three guys through the doorway at a time and with 3:1 odds he would manage that with not much trouble! Thus we learned to "use our heads"!

In Thermopylae the same principle was in play. It was a great strategy to use the terrain to one's advantage like that. It's very apparent that "using your head" is a timeless tactic!



As for the movie; I'd like to see it but will wait for it to come out on video. I think it will probably be good "entertainment" and not really "educational"!
Drader
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Posted: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 02:16 PM UTC
The Spartans probably regarded what they did as their duty and nothing more. Leonidas' contingent fully expected not to come back and was specifically selected from men who had heirs, additionally Leonidas was one of a pair of Spartan kings (Spartans did everything differently) so there would be no break in rule when he died.

The pass at Thermopylae was selected at the point where the heavily armed and armoured Spartans could stand off a much larger, but more lightly equipped Persian army. But it wasn't expected to be held forever, it was only a delaying action.

Perhaps we also should think about the courage of the lightly equipped Persian and allied soldiers going up against the bronze-armoured machine of the Spartans. And also wonder how the incredibly stratified spartan culture ever became the saviour of democracy.

Thermopylae was of course also the scene of some of the famous quotations of the Spartan's Laconic style of speech (short and to the point). Leonidas' reply to a Persian demand to lay down their weapons and return home was 'molon labe' - come and take them.

David
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Posted: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 10:22 PM UTC
Howdy Fellas

And many thx for taking the time to stop by and comment about this subject. And I am even more pleased to have the 'big guy' himself stop by as well, thanks Jim!
Additionally, all of your kind words of "welcome" are genuinely appreciated.

To the subject;
As usual HalfYank, you voice very good points. Allow me to throw my input at them if I may. In my earlier years I spent approximately seven of them studying and eventually teaching, several forms of martial arts. Amoungst these disiplines I was a student of Bo-Jitsu for a time {unfortunetly I did not continue the lessons}. In short, you progress through a series of different weapons, beginning with a lightweight bamboo staff and progressing thru more lethal and more heavier weaponary. You are graded by your deftness with each weapon and perform a form of kata with each. When the 'grading' day arrives you perform these katas back to back. This took approximately an hour.
Now I know this doesn't sound like a long time, but let me assure you that it feels like an eternity!.........and that was only an hour.
If any of you have watched the film Braveheart {and I'm sure just about every one of you blokes have } the reality of brandishing a heavy sword for any length of time is unbelievably exhausting........imagine doing this for DAYS!!!! Remember, the Persians, by sheer physical numbers, had inexhaustible bodies to throw at the front of the engagement while the valiant Spartans had no such luxury.............thoughts?

Further, {thought I'd stop talkin' huh?} regarding the 'constrictive defense' strategem so kindly mentioned by hellbent11 {by the way, I remember recieving a very similar lesson back in P.I., only it was my Senior Drill Instructor and he used the archway into the head and picked one of our Admin Bodies to stand beside him to defend the 'pass' }.
This well-worn lesson obviously makes chrystal clear sense { a similar strategy is applied when laying down MG defense lines by laying down cross-over fire lines at choke points in the enemies path of advance } and was successfully applied at Thermopylae. But again, I tend to mire myself in the real physicality of the event.
Hence, I submit this for your review;

Below is a modern day photograph of the pass at Thermopylae. The pass itself is the notch between the mountains that can be seen to the left of the picture. Even though geographers believe this pass was physically smaller in ancient times, you can see that it is still surprisingly wide. Now, imagine approximately 300 Sparan warriors [ they were assisted for a short while by an additional 700 Thespians} trying to plug a gap that size? To maybe put it in perspective, the average movie theatre holds approximately 300 people......

here's the pic.



Drader, your input is very good indeed. It was known to be a delaying tactic from the beginning, but the loyalty and devotion of the Spartans was unquestioned. as was their commitment to their king.

As to the Persians. Well, that is something I will comment on in another post once this one {hopefully] gets some additional comments telling me that my statements are seriously full of road appples, or that I should just simply "get on my bike" :-) :-)

Reagards,

Tread.
modelbuilder82
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Posted: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 11:55 PM UTC
I actually think the movie is based off of a graphic novel. Comic book for anybody that doesn't know. Thats why there are all the strange creatures and what not. So yes it will probably be more Hollywood then history. But I will still go and see it.
TreadHead
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Posted: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 12:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I actually think the movie is based off of a graphic novel. Comic book for anybody that doesn't know. Thats why there are all the strange creatures and what not. So yes it will probably be more Hollywood then history. But I will still go and see it.



Yes modelbuilder82,

I meant to say something about this before. The movie '300', is indeed based on a graphic novel written by Frank Miller. This is the same gentleman who brought the somewhat recent film 'Sin City' to the silverscreen starring Bruce Willis. Anyone who has seen this film would remember the 'unique', high-contrast way that the film was shot. They should also remember the rather loose license employed by Mr. Miller regarding reality and the accompanying Laws of Physics

For entertainment purposes I'm sure Mr. Miller will apply his unique 'enhancement' filming techniques to the film '300'. But the thing to keep in mind with this particular movie is, that it really happened and that the basic ingredients of the story are accurate.
An example would be a historically accurate qoute attributed to King Leonidas when warned about the massive volumne of arrows that would befall his warriors. His response was basically appreciating the 'shade' they would provide...............unbelievable brass that.

Tread.
hellbent11
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Posted: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 02:28 PM UTC
Tread,
Thanks for the pic! That really put things in perspective. That is certainly eye-opening as I imagined a very very narrow pass. That certainly does take some intestinal-fortitude to defend something that wide with so few men!
Drader
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Posted: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 02:41 PM UTC
That's why you need archaeology to explain history

Topography can change a lot over 2500 years, and the shore has receeded a long way in that time. Herodotus' description is pretty specific (even if his orientation is confused) suggesting that even if he didn't visit the site personally, he talked to people who had, and there were people alive while he was writing who had fought in the war.

This page here goes into some of the likely changes, and even archaeological attempts to locate the site of the final stand.

Thermopylae

David
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Posted: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 08:03 PM UTC
Howdy fellas,

Thx for piping in on the subject Drader {I like your avatar BTW}. And thx for the useful link. It was a good read, but after reading thru it, I must admit to being a little more confused than before {regarding the physical pass dimensions specifically}. Obviously there is no definitive answer to the actual location, and even the smaller estimates seem to vary widely.
As I said in my post above, " Even though geographers believe this pass was physically smaller in ancient times " the pass would obviously have been narrower back in 480 B.C. I didn't want to mire the discussion so much in the physical dimensions of the pass itself {especially since that argument is unprovable either way}, but to focus it rather on the physical interaction of the fighting men involved. Whatever the actual pass dimensions were, it had to be wide enough to at least operate in and move around a bit....right? I provided the photograph of the pass because it was the only one I could find, and to maybe pin a real world image on a historical place.....no 'hardcore' geography lessons were intended....

I enjoyed much more your point about the comparison of the armament weilded by both sides of the engagement. And will take the opportunity to place it beside my analogy of employing a heavy weapon in combat.
True the Persian warriors were more lightly armoured, and even more lightly armed, but the opposite of that was the delaying Spartans/Greeks were saddled with moving, swinging and weilding much heavier gear/armament for a much longer period of time. Also {as I said previously}, the Persians had an inexhaustable amount of manpower and fresh troops they could throw at the head of the engagement.
If you've ever had the opportunity to read some of the early Norseman/Viking battle history they learned early on to rotate the warriors actually engaged in combat for that very reason.
I've even read passages about 16th-17th Century engagements where the combatants actually would wear themselves out and, while standing face to face with their enemy, stabd and rest for a few ticks, and then re-engage.
Oops......apologies for my rambling on........

Tread.
modelbuilder82
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Posted: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 09:44 PM UTC
I can only imagine how hard it would have been to be decked out in bronze armor in the heat. Talk about cooking to death. But that was the smallest of their worries. How many people now do you think could face totally insurmountable odds. And actually holding them off for quite awhile. Thats what makes history so fascinating. Just reading about these great battles and thinking "what would I do". Sorry I'm rambling
Drader
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Posted: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 09:49 PM UTC
The point of archaeology is to mess up the clarity of history

My reading of the article makes the original width of the pass as being less than half the width of a football pitch, to give a modern comparison.

I'll have to have another look at Herodotus tonight.

David
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Posted: Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 12:58 AM UTC
There is also a dialog that took place between a Greek and Persian that I cannot remember their names now. The Persian told Greek to surrender because they are so many that their arrows could cover the sun and the Greek told him that this is better because they will fight in the shade.
TreadHead
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Posted: Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 04:02 AM UTC
Howdy fellas,

My dear Drader, I think your take on the dimensions is probably spot-on. I had imagined in my mind something about the width of an American football field {50 yards}, which is about what you are suggesting [I think ]. The 50 yard dimension kind of makes sense if your imagining approximately 300 souls succeeding in keeping any amount of humanity at bay.
One of the additional things to keep in mind here is; even though the Spartans were eventually defeated, the main reason they were defeated was because they were eventually attacked from the rear as well as the front because of a betrayal. So, at the very end of the battle they were fighting against these incredible odds both in front and behind!
No matter what evidence you want to throw at it, I am in awe of such courage!

Tread.
blaster76
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Posted: Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 04:17 AM UTC
As to the actual battle itself. It is one that I placed in my topic "hopeless Battles" Probably one of the greatest examples of sheer bravery and tenaciousness ever. As to the movie, I have always considered the original "The 300 Spartans" to be one of the greatest war /battle movies done. It does not waste a whole lot of time depicting fictational bull and doesn't over speechify things to bring out with the old Hollywood idea of moralistic lessons (such as John Wayne's Alamo or the Gettysburg classic which has Chamberlain doing all that freedom talking before the battle) After seeing the clip for the new one, I was a bit put off with all the freaky-deaky images I saw. I was kind of hoping for a cdi enhanced 300 Spartans. I'll wait for it to come out and here what folks have to say about it

As to the topography. SOmethng tells me that nice hard surface 2 lane road wasn't there with the shoulders and all that. I'm sure the modern bulldozer had something to do with widening the pass.
05Sultan
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Posted: Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 10:51 AM UTC
...." and in his life's greatest work,Leonidas fell....." , -author unknown.
Well I for one am greatly looking forward to the movie,just for the fight action,if nothing else! I remember the battle study a little differantly,and I'm sorry,don't remember the sources but I recall the Greek navy being victorious against the Persians due to superior seamanship and tactical leadership,thereby forcing Xerxes XX(?) to fight at Thermopolie,rather than skirt it. Also,there were more than a few Greek city-states that contributed troops to the cause.(eventually to be sent away by Leonidas).Finally,the Spartans would stack the dead Persians into piles after each battle.The stacks were arranged in such a way as to create adeadly maze that lead to fatal enfilade from 'the wall' of defenders. the stacks of dead reached heights of ten feet or more and were set afire every other day. The stench of the burning bodies would drift into the Persian camps and enrage or demoralize the fighters.
IIRC,there was also one raid where Persian ships were burned on the beach,just to piss off the Persian king!
If nothing else,this sounds so much more romantic.(your milage may vary)
Cheers!
Drader
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Posted: Sunday, January 28, 2007 - 02:05 PM UTC
Okay, now that I've thumbed through my translation of Herodotus' Histories....

The width of the pass given by the translator is 50 feet , presumably this the half plethera (1 pletheron =100 feet) of the article I linked to before. Additionally, the pass was defended by a stone wall which the Greeks repaired.

It is also evident that the Greeks maintained an active forward defence (Herodotus mentions the old favourite the feigned flight) beyond the wall, and rotated their forces. Subtracting the 1000 defending their rear, on Herodotus' count they should have had roughly 6000 men to do this with, untill the final stages when most of the allied troops were released.

And the arrow joker was Dieneces, though the speech Herodouts puts in his mouth is not specially Laconic....

David