Dear friends,

I'm just now getting back into modeling after a 20 year break. Amazing how quickly you can get back in the groove. Two weeks after deciding to start up again, I had amassed a airbrush, compressor, a dozen tools, a dozen paint jars and five kits for "down the road." All that to say, I've definitely been bitten by the bug pretty hard.

There's one thing I'm wondering about, but just haven't been sure how to ask. You see, during my 20 year break, I went to art school to study painting. Sure, I learned some techniques, but, more important, I was taught and came to believe that your art should have some kind of idea or point of view behind it. It's a communications medium, after all.

You'll hear people say (and I know I've read this in a Mig Jimenez book) that this hobby IS art. But I haven't seen too many models or dioramas that have "soul" or that are artistic in this larger sense. Is anyone communicating any provocative ideas in this medium? I do see a lot of technical proficiency, an obsession with historical accuracy. But aren't there any rebels among us who have been tempted to use modeling to say something that needs saying?

Now, it's possible that I'm not looking in the right places. If you're aware of anyone using models in any unusual ways, please tell me.

I'm also aware that for many of us (and for me 90% of the time), this is just meant to be simple fun. So, please understand that I'm not trying to be critical of those of us who don't want to get all introspective with a piece of plastic. Maybe smelling acrylic paint fumes is as "high-minded" as some of us ever want to get.

But, in the same way that Verlnden blew my mind when I first saw his work, I'm wondering if this hobby has the potential to be a whole lot more than the manipulation of plastic and paint...and that it just takes a pioneer to change the rules of the game by showing us a whole new approach to the hobby.

Perhaps a good comparison is war films. On the one hand you've got documentaries, which can be very thought-provoking and soul-stirring, but often are just factual recounts of historical events. Then there are movies. Sure, many are forgettable. But when they're done well (Full Metal Jacket, Apocolypse Now, Saving Private Ryan, The Killing Fields, etc.) they can affect you deeply and can provoke deep feelings about war, comeraderie, sacrifice, patriotism, etc. So, I guess that's my question: are we all making factual documentaries? Or is anyone out there a budding Spielberg in 1/35 scale?

I'm eager to hear everyone's thoughts on this. And if the overwhelming consenus is "shut up and just enjoy the damn hobby," I can live with that, because most of the time, that's just what I'll do. But I'll always wonder...

Here are my two cents: I think what you're speaking about can be approached by the best dioramists. For the vast majority, I'd say we attempt to be great miniaturists -- depicting something enromous on a much reduced scale. That has a unique artistry to its own. I recall seeing a 1/350 US Destroyer in person that was awe inspiring. It was a piece of art and could have been the centerpiece of any maritime museum.

This artistry is different than the "message" that I believe you're inquiring about. However, maybe try to look at the recent Mil Mod issue covering Euromilitaire 2006. I think you won't be disappointed.

Have a look at Marion and aalan Ball's Gallery. I think you'll see the soul you're looking for. Many of these peices are one off's that Alan sculpted for himself while others are his commercial pieces. Also, Ugo Pozzati's Gallery.

I think that those of us building vehicles are more constrined by what the real thing looked like, the exact colors, Extremes, such as the preshading and paint chipping fads tend to be flashes in the pan and quickly loose favor and thye become extreme and the effect overwhelms the rest of the build.

Figurists, on the other hand, have more freedom to be artistic in playing with the source of light falling on a model, adjusting expression and reposing/sculpting to meet a specific mood or story. With a tank, the only espressionism would be in damaging it or posing it with suspension over obstacles, etc.

Interesting thread. Well, since this mainly is a hobby, I think for the most part you will not see that provocative idea thing. I think most people are interested in the machines and equipment themselves, and are not that interested in making statements (not to say there are NO statements or ideas being conveyed, but it is sort of secondary).

Now, dioramas and vignettes are the opportunity to do something interesting. USUALLY there would be a need to do figures, and from what I read here and elsewhere, doing figures really scares many off.

Anyway, I am in your camp in the sense that I love to see artistic models, and not just well crafted models. You might want to take a look at figure modelers to get a better appreciation. The Bill Horans of the world do some fascinating stuff. Even their single figures are great portraits, using the pose to convey feelings and ideas.

When I make figure vignettes I try to follow the age old technique of the pyramid (The Raft of the Medusa painting comes to mind) so the eye has a natural path to follow and therefore you can have the viewer follow the ideas you are conveying. At the same time, even in the art niche of our hobby people do not want to offend, so there definitely is a conservative bent, and not that "pushing the envelope" of ideas. That being said, many many people build something to honor or recognize those that are depicted (as I have in my recent HEMTT vignette). Even though that particular vignette does not say anything of great interest to others not interested in military things, I still think it has somewhat of a soul as it relates the difficulties the plain ol' supply guys had in an intense combat environment and the courage they displayed on a difficult day.

It seems like you can contribute to the discussions here on this site for sure.

Cheers.

Bob

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the discussion. I'm also glad that nobody's taken my post the wrong way.

After I wrote my post, I recalled a good example that I should have included. Has anyone ever seen the fake Lego set that a polish artist once made?

I just looked him up. His name is Zbigniew Libera and he used Lego parts to create what looked like commercially produced Lego sets of German concentration camps. Now, I don't think he was making an outright statement against the war crimes of the Nazis (as that wouldn't be anything terribly innovative at this point), but I think he was commenting on how the marketing and packaging of things can transform something horrific into something normal, and possibly even fun.

Here is a page with more info:
http://users.erols.com/kennrice/lego-kz.htm

Here is a picture of one of the box sets he created:
http://users.erols.com/kennrice/lego-kz3.jpg

Anyway, I recall thinking at the time that it was an awful clever use of toys/miniatures to get at some bigger ideas. I don't think the Lego company was too pleased, though.

I think a bog part of our art is trying to capture the view of the men we model, or the vehicle crew for the vehicles we build. Things like how each soldiers kit is arranged, how gear is placed on vehicles, and even down to the slogans and personal graffiti placed on the vehicles all go to the frame of mind of the men involved in battle using the equipment we now reproduce.

The larger statement isnt usually in modelling. That statement, like the equipment we build, becomes a miniature. Roy hit on this. Our art in in minature. You have to bring the staement into miniature as well. Instead of a large, all encompassing, provocative idea, our art tends to focus more on the individual mind, or the minds of a particular crew.

Hmm....this brings me back to my philosophy class :-) You could discuss this for hours!

I think you bring up a very interesting discussion.

Art is in the eye of the beholder and many time the artist is the beholder. You are dealving into the emotion behind much of what is done and created. I think that Roy is on to something by stating that many of us are miniaturists. Many time our projects are just that minature duplication. Very well done ones many times.

Many times in modeling discussions we try to equate a scale version into a life size equal and I will do so here. In the full scale world there are many many many people who 'paint' pictures that are, to them, art. They don't push any boundaries, or break new ground. The true artists who are doing that are few and far between. Same thing in the modeling world there tons of minuaturists, very good one, but few 'artists' breaking ground.

Here is one I consider an artists

Tsushima

Wow, slodder, you're not kidding. I looked through all of JB Andre's dioramas and they are really striking. There's somewhat of a manifesto on this page. I particularly appreciate the point about depicting war: "Whenever dealing with war you should treat it with conscience: you should remember it’s a sad thing that destroys a man, even if he survives it. "

Great topic!

I remember all too vividly seeing "Toro Toro Toro" with my late father, sometime in the 70's when "sense-around" was introduced. My father was a war veteran in the battle for the Philippines. We left the movie early, rushing my father to the hospital because of a minor heart-attack. It brought to me the horror my dad survived. It was about the time that I started modelling.

Something that has always stuck with me since that episode with my dad at the moviehouse, is the fact of the people behind the machine. I always try to have a story line in everything I build, even if it is only myself that knows about it. I remember seeing some photos taken during Vietnam by a journalist, who's name eludes me, that I thought should be modelled. I just haven't had the guts yet. They were not bloody nor gory, but there statement was very stark.

I don't consider myself to be a war-monger in any way, but I guess I'm intrigued by the person that is placed in a situation that is FUBAR, which war is in my opinion, but yet finds the strength to move on. Because I always ask myself if I could do it. A story can be found anywhere with anything, otherwise it is just a mass of plastic. What ever the case, this is my approach.

Emotion is quite a binding theme in many builders. Either tied emotionally through personal experiences or trying to emote feelings in others.
Its is a rare modeler who can 'bend' the subject material and raw materials in such a way that sparks interest in anyone who looks at a piece.

jba has that in my opinion. Every piece of his touches something and streatches your imagination either through the unique use of colors or composition or construction.

I remember way back when there was an emotional dio with German executing Jews. There were dead bodies in a pit and a little Jewish girl was giving her teddybear to her executioner. That dio had an evil soul but brought out so many viewpoints, some artistic others totally sickened and offended.

Then you end up with the graphic beach scenes in Saving Private Ryan depicting all the carnage and horror of the battle. Some thought those dios were exeptionally realistic. Others were offended of the blood and called it gratuitous.

To me it seems that the subject matter we select to build, warriors and war machines, has an evil side that some accept as realism and others as offensive and unnecessary. After seeing such controversy over and over we might have been conditioned to accept building within a middle ground

I can certainly see where you're coming from, as far as a "soul" to our models. I wonder though at the reaction to some dioramas that have been posted on this, and other sites. One comes to mind that showed a group of civilians either about to be, or actually in the process of being shot down by Nazis into a mass grave. I can't recall all the details but it seemed to me it got a LOT of negative reaction. It almost seemed there is a taboo about showing controversial subjects in plastic. Even showing blood can be frowned upon by some other modelers. I know that we all model for our own reasons, and to meet our own criteria, but if I made a diorama like this, and posted it for discussion, and was loudly vilified by even a large number of modelers, not a majority, I'd be really hesitant to make something like that again.

As for myself so far I'm only a miniaturist. That's neither good, nor bad, it just what I do. If I can make something and have others say, "wow, that's a really well made tank." If I can then put it into a diorama that can tell a story, any story, I'm even happier. If some day I can then put it into a dio that not only tells a story, but moves people, then I'll be a very happy modeler.

IS it me or do I see three different threads in one ?
1/ “Is it art” –there was one great discussion about it in Historicus Forma a while back but this kind of subjects doesn’t let themselves being closed. I think what Zbigniew Libera is doing is art btw –mass killing=mass consumption I suppose. That doesn’t make his art much friendly in either way!

2/ “Morality”. Sorry to get old fashioned for some maybe. "Whenever dealing with war you should treat it with conscience: you should remember it’s a sad thing that destroys a man, even if he survives it. yeah I wrote that. I always was saddened at people painting Hitler busts or more recently Nazis with dogs just like it is any other mundane subject.
I am also with people that found that dio with grave mass killing absolutely hateful. Not the subject itself, but the *way it has been done*. Here you have this green grass, these Disney looking like people taking a bullet in the head with a little girl with her doll or whatever. It is pathetic.
It could have been done coldly I mean only one guy with talent –and who could have actually built his own figs so that there could be a whole synergy in the scene- could have get away with such a subject, and the guy who done it doesn’t have much.
Like some say here “you can laugh about everything, but not with everybody”.

3/”Soul”. Usually the kind of dios that get the attention are “good stories”, “the Good Bad and Ugly” like scenes like this diorama with a Staghound disturbing some milk carrying German soldiers or that Belgian armoured car speeding past a company of Uhlans, those capture the speed and action and sometimes “fun” in a still and are actually quite good, and they usually win competitions, all the best for them. I would say they are great *entertainment*.
But that is not what I seek with what I am doing or from others.
I want to see the fear in the eyes, I want to feel the cold or the warmth, I want to feel insecure when I am looking at a diorama. Like Rodger says above "moves people".
It has to be a kind of haze around the diorama, when there is this haze then the guy succeeds.
Shepperd Paine has been the first to do this, there is not a lot of people that followed his path in that respect.
By the way, this kind of haze doesn’t have to get built with a steamroller like this countless “last stand” dioramas Napoleonian Russian retreat like
More generally speaking I would say that for a lot of diorama builders, the love of accuracy and historically impeccable work often destroys the creativity.
But then yeah it is a hobby, but then it could also be more.. we have all the right tools to do something more..

And thanks for the comments on baby Tsushima!

Yeah jba, I think you hit right on the head. There are different aspects put into this one thread. I'm guilty as charged...

I like your idea of haze. I can definitly see that haze in your work, which is truely inspiring.

I have found this a very relevant topic and have enjoyed the comment - I am still working on my "apprenticeship" with sculpting but I always try to give a soul to everything I do and I am lucky that I have a wonderful teaher whose works just spill out with ethos and feeling - Go havea look at any of the sculpts of a Modeller called Auburn (Phil Walden) and have alook at several of his pieces -they are full of "it" that is the best way I can expess it - have alook at his Gallipoli figure at the moment of death and it talks totally o you of the total waste that was the 1st world war (and every other war) It was just that WW! was the first really total war,,,,, enough I could go on and on - I look at lots of works and yes I see art and Miniturist together in Armorama and with threads like this I think we all learn a little and approach our 'work' just ever so slightly differently
Ian (an artist who is the learning period)

JBA

I guess this is where my interpretation differs from yours.

I think when we build dios we all strive to give life, or a soul, to our creations but that very few are able to pull it off.

Not that I found the mass grave dio of any good taste, but it did bring out emotion... in this case I felt sick, shock, disbelief, anger, sadness and rage. To me there was an "evil" soul in that dio. I felt there was a life in that dio that truly depicted death.

There are plenty of good stories such as the Staghound bringing food to Germans example. To me that was an average feel good kind of scenario. It didn't bring out the same intense emotion as the mass grave. These may be very clean cut, tasteful and even happy but didn’t make me think or feel too much beyond the obvious good scene. It’s possible with so many commercial figures and kits available that we recognize too much of the dio and that it becomes less thought provoking.

Another dio I saw that brought out some serious emotion was a Vietnam scene. On the left side was a black GI was dragging a wounded white GI during (who had a severely injured leg) to safety in during of a firefight. The middle of the dio was divided by the Vietnam Wall Memorial and the right side of was in front of the Vietnam Wall many years later. There in front of the Wall was an elderly black man and an elderly white man (with crutches and a missing leg) hugging with all sorts of family standing around in a semi-circle. To me that storyline is powerful and emotional: Two buddies who faced death together. One saves the other. Now they meet again. It shows that they are friends in spite of being different black and white. It showed danger. It showed chaos of battle. It showed peace. To me this dio had a soul.

An interesting thread, and very similar to the topic we raised on Historicus Forma a few months ago ( But is it art?).

I believe it all comes down to the eye of the beholder. For example something like an Abram's AFV may seem plain, dull, ugly and unemotive to me, but to someone that served in one or was rescued for a dire situation through the actions of a crew of one of these machines may find a certain beauty or emotion though it.

As for the telling of mankind's darker side, and let's face it, generally speaking we're a cruel species, I find those dioramas and vignettes far and few between. But, I do find them spine chillingly emotive. I recall the piece Jean-Bernard refers to, and my reading of the kid with the teddy bear was very different to his. I don't feel it served to warm the piece at all, but really did bring a whole new kind of cruel cold to the scene. I found that just the inclusion of that bear brought about the end to innocence. I really did find that incredibly cold.

I forget the artist, but anyone remember the dio's titled "Zoot Suit Riots" and "Strange Fruit"? Embarrassingly I can't remember the artist (Bill Chilstrom?). But that is exactly the kind of story-telling medium that modelling has the potential for.

Interestingly and sadly, I have yet to see any South African modellers depict the heinous crimes of Apartheid... instead they build the very machines that were used to enforce that horror of a regime.

Rudi

That would be Bob Tavis who also did the Belgians and Uhlans referenced earlier in this discussion. I've seen many of Mr. Tavis' work in person, including [i]Strange Fruit[/b]. This is a harsh look at a period in American history. It tells its story with no glorification of the lynch mob and shows the terrible pain and anguis on the victim's family.

And I agree with you on the little girl with the teddy bear making a powerful statement in tha dio, making the Nazis all that much more cruel and inhumane. It's the lack of cruelty and the heroic pose of the recently featured SS officer with dog that, while I appreciate the excellence of the sculpting, and the subsequent paonting, I can't warm up to the figure.

Does anyone have any photos of the Nazi execution dio? I wish I had seen it if only so I could form my own opinion. In principle, I don't have a problem with depictions of horrific scenes. In the same way I'd judge a movie depiction, the question wouldn't be whether artists have a right to depict horrible events, but whether the depiction was exploitative or somehow redemptive. To the extent that a dio of a massacre (Mai Lai,, Katun, Haditha...the list goes on), I think there's great potential to serve a higher cause.

I've always been struck by a couple of aspects of war that I would someday consider working into a dio. One is the powerlessness of most people, soldier or civilian, in the face of it. I thought that the beach scene in Private Ryan conveyed that quite convincingly. It was the sense that there was literally nothing -- no trick, no tactic -- that you could do to save yourself. The lead was flying everywhere and whether you survived was a matter of pure luck (or divine providence, if you prefer).

Another concept is the banality of evil -- the idea that something like the Final Solution was not entirely the result of evil people knowingly committing heinous acts. Rather, the bulk of the effort consisted of individuals doing their jobs -- filing papers, fixing railways, ordering supplies, etc. Everyone did their bureaucratic parts, and most of those jobs were probably not morally objectionable in and of themselves. I suspect that this second concept might be harder to depict in miniatures...perhaps it's better left for books and films.

Anyway, I've been encouraged by how many people are at least interested in this topic. The general lack of controversy in the hobby and the number of dios that seem to glamorize war led me to thin that I'd be shouted down.

More detailed shots can be seen here. I think that without a doubt Marijn Van Gils is the type artist you are refering to.

donmball - I think this is the feature you were looking for

Final Farewell

Slodder that is one of the controversial ones but not the one I was thinking about. The one I was talking about was where a Nazi had already shot a bunch of Jews, dumped them in a pit and was about to shoot a little Jewish girl who offers up her teddy bear to the Nazi.

Heck I can't even type the words describing that dio without getting worked up/

I think the one we are refering to is called "My god, why do you throw me Away"; i have been trying googling for it without success, but i remember falling on it a coupla times this last year, and feeling the same everytilme. probably because i also think it is technically badly done (with figs straight from the box etc)...
On another hand the "Strangefruit" dio Al is refering to i thought was fantastic!

Ok, a little digging and I found a photo of that execution dio. I'm not sure if it's ok, but I'll upload it here.



So, remind me, what's the problem with this?

Also found another dio called "The Racism" by Maza Takahashi, which seems to depict some German soldiers clearing out a ghetto.



No evidence of the Strange Fruit dio, although I learned in my research that that was the name of a Billie Holiday song about lynchings and that many artists have used that as a title for works on that theme.

In the execution dio either the pile of bodies has been taken out of the pit or the camera angle hids them.