I am not going to purchase or trade for another Dragon Product until such time as Dragon publicly apologize for the manner in which they have treated Terry Ashley at PMMS. He, as are we all, is entitled to his opinion, if someone disagrees prove the point fairly and straightforwardly. Terry has been wrong before and has graciously corrected his error. I believe it is time for Dragon to react in a like manner and retract their statements and apologize to him publicly. I will regard them in a better light for doing so.
This is not an invitation for a flame war, there have been enough of those to prove that a number of modelers are also upset by Dragons heavy handedness in this matter.
I’m not expecting everyone to agree that this is the right step to take but if you want to take the same position please add a reply below. Perhaps if enough of us feel the same way and defer our Dragon habit for a while (I know I have enough models to last my lifetime without buying more of them…. But what a year it’s been for great kits!) they might just get the hint that they have overstepped a line here.
I hope this doesn’t get deleted by the moderators of any of the sites (Track Link, Tank Talk, Armorama ) I am posting this on but I will understand their need to maintain their commercial relationships.
I’m going to miss Dragon and Cyber Hobby for a while which will make me sad, but it is true that while there is Free Speech, action still speaks louder than words.
Tony Leyva
Modeling in General
General discussions about modeling topics.
General discussions about modeling topics.
Hosted by Jim Starkweather
I'm Boycotting Dragon until they Apologize
Exile
Member Since: October 21, 2005
entire network: 34 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 10:59 AM UTC
troubble27
Member Since: October 10, 2003
entire network: 783 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 11:26 AM UTC
I guess I missed it, what happened with Terry over at PMMS???
Its gonna be kinda hard to boycott Dragon as they have some of the nicest kits on the market at the moment. However, perhaps a response from many of us directly to Dragon in the manner as you wrote would be more effective. Everyone IS entitled to their opinion; right or wrong.
Its gonna be kinda hard to boycott Dragon as they have some of the nicest kits on the market at the moment. However, perhaps a response from many of us directly to Dragon in the manner as you wrote would be more effective. Everyone IS entitled to their opinion; right or wrong.
Exile
Member Since: October 21, 2005
entire network: 34 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 11:55 AM UTC
Grumpyoldman
ConsigliereMember Since: October 17, 2003
entire network: 15,338 Posts
KitMaker Network: 5,072 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 12:00 PM UTC
Feel free to boycott what ever you like.
I've been boycotting major league baseball since their first strike.
Don't think it has affected them one bit. :-)
I've been boycotting major league baseball since their first strike.
Don't think it has affected them one bit. :-)
HeavyArty
Member Since: May 16, 2002
entire network: 17,694 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,968 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 06:27 PM UTC
As I said at M-L. Give it up. I don't think dragging this out is going to help anyone. Terry said he isn't too terribly concerned about it, why should you be?
houborg
Member Since: January 31, 2006
entire network: 180 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 06:38 PM UTC
Hi all,
Without bringing logs to the fire of "freedom of speech" this is - to me - all caused by a lingual misunderstanding as Terry points out in his first part of the blog on his site.
Many years of dealing with customer complaint has taught me one thing - if the E-mail or mail correspondance gets personnal or inflammatory - call the other guy up and discuss it to get the good dialogue going again.
I personnally think that what both Dragon and Terry is doing at the moment is below both their dignity and childish. So Terry or Dragon - if you read this, pick up the phone and start communicating with each other instead of acting crazy - so that we all can enjoy good products and fact based reviews. It's christmas for good sake - get along and respect each other.
Best regards
Morten
Without bringing logs to the fire of "freedom of speech" this is - to me - all caused by a lingual misunderstanding as Terry points out in his first part of the blog on his site.
Many years of dealing with customer complaint has taught me one thing - if the E-mail or mail correspondance gets personnal or inflammatory - call the other guy up and discuss it to get the good dialogue going again.
I personnally think that what both Dragon and Terry is doing at the moment is below both their dignity and childish. So Terry or Dragon - if you read this, pick up the phone and start communicating with each other instead of acting crazy - so that we all can enjoy good products and fact based reviews. It's christmas for good sake - get along and respect each other.
Best regards
Morten
troubble27
Member Since: October 10, 2003
entire network: 783 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 06:59 PM UTC
Well, after reading the post, I dont think this is really worth "boycotting" dragon. It seems to me there is a misunderstanding between Terry and Dragon based on translation. My wife is Russian, and speaks ENglish pretty well, but sometimes, we get into disagreements because she interprets something I say as meaning something completely differant simply because our languages are spoken differantly. We get over the disagreement, and laugh it off. So, I can understand first hand how Terry and Dragon had a misunderstanding. On another note, you have to admit, Dragon has been putting a lot of effort into their work lately, and I can see how thye might be offended by a less then positive review of their product. Ever work your butt off for you boss to do something perfect, and have him say, "Well, its not bad, but......." You were probably burning up. But thats the way it goes. Personally, I like Dragons products, and I do read TErry's reviews. I wouldnt stop reading Terry's reviews based on Dragons statements, nor would i stop buying dragons products because someone else has a dispute with them. thats my .02 
Henk
Member Since: August 07, 2004
entire network: 6,391 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,600 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 07:06 PM UTC
Quoted Text
My wife is Russian, and speaks ENglish pretty well, but sometimes, we get into disagreements because she interprets something I say as meaning something completely differant simply because our languages are spoken differantly.
Ahh, but that haas nothing to do with a language difference, our beloved other halves will mis-interpet anything we say if it does not suit them...
:-) Cheers
Henk
houborg
Member Since: January 31, 2006
entire network: 180 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 07:11 PM UTC
I have to agree with Henk - I think my wife is russian too if his conclusion is correct :-)
BR
Morten
BR
Morten
Graywolf
Senior Editor
Member Since: December 01, 2001
entire network: 6,405 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,013 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 07:43 PM UTC
My wife is not Russian and speaks English pretty well.On the other side , we both speak our native language Turkish at home but sometimes she interprets things completely different than what I mean though we are married for over 18 years. 
so it is not only the language what causes misunderstandings. different personalities, stress in our lives, clashing benefits and many other things can cause it.
Personally, I believe and wish this problem will be solved in time between them because we need both of them; Dragon as a great company and Terry Ashley as a great modeler.
P.S : this message will be auto-terminated in 10 secs before my wife comes back from work. :-) :-)
best regards
so it is not only the language what causes misunderstandings. different personalities, stress in our lives, clashing benefits and many other things can cause it.Personally, I believe and wish this problem will be solved in time between them because we need both of them; Dragon as a great company and Terry Ashley as a great modeler.
P.S : this message will be auto-terminated in 10 secs before my wife comes back from work. :-) :-)
best regards
jimbrae
Member Since: April 23, 2003
entire network: 12,927 Posts
KitMaker Network: 2,060 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 08:34 PM UTC
Much as I don't like what is going on at all, it is, at the end of the day, a matter between Terry Ashley and DML. Yes, the other day, I posted a link to Terry's BLOG - simply to give a little 'equilibrium' to a subject which doesn't (directly) affect Armorama, but IMO, was important to see the other 'side's' point of view.
That said, there are two final comments I'd like to have on the subject.
Firstly, the absurd rumor (deliberately fuelled on another site) that 'Blogger Hiroshi' is a Senior Staff member on a 'major armor website'. Well, I think people are capable of using their God-Given brains and figuring that one out for themselves for the idiotic it is. Just in case anyone has any doubts - No STAFF MEMBER ON ARMORAMA IS EMPLOYED BY DML.
Secondly, if there is going to be a flame-war over this subject, please, in the interests of THIS site, do it somewhere else. At the end of the day it's PMMS in dispute with DML's MDFC bulletin board - Not Armorama.
That said, there are two final comments I'd like to have on the subject.
Firstly, the absurd rumor (deliberately fuelled on another site) that 'Blogger Hiroshi' is a Senior Staff member on a 'major armor website'. Well, I think people are capable of using their God-Given brains and figuring that one out for themselves for the idiotic it is. Just in case anyone has any doubts - No STAFF MEMBER ON ARMORAMA IS EMPLOYED BY DML.
Secondly, if there is going to be a flame-war over this subject, please, in the interests of THIS site, do it somewhere else. At the end of the day it's PMMS in dispute with DML's MDFC bulletin board - Not Armorama.
grimreaper
Member Since: April 11, 2005
entire network: 417 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 08:58 PM UTC
I have to agree with Henk - I think my wife is russian too if his conclusion is correct
WOW ... all this time I thought I was the only one with this problem! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
... as for Terry and Dragon.....Life goes on - GET OVER IT!
Not a good enough reason for a boycott.
WOW ... all this time I thought I was the only one with this problem! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
... as for Terry and Dragon.....Life goes on - GET OVER IT!
Not a good enough reason for a boycott.
KWHCoaster
Member Since: May 15, 2004
entire network: 16 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 09:23 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I guess I missed it, what happened with Terry over at PMMS???
Hi Gary,
You missed it because it was private squabble on DML's private forums that is now being aired in public.
Unfortunately, we're all trying to be dragged into the Black Hole of immaturity.
Ken
troubble27
Member Since: October 10, 2003
entire network: 783 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 09:30 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextMy wife is Russian, and speaks ENglish pretty well, but sometimes, we get into disagreements because she interprets something I say as meaning something completely differant simply because our languages are spoken differantly.
Ahh, but that haas nothing to do with a language difference, our beloved other halves will mis-interpet anything we say if it does not suit them...
Cheers
Henk
OH, my wife doesnt do that. When something doesnt suit her, she DELIBERATELY twists my words around to suit her needs. There is no mis interpretation there whatsoever LOL :-) God, I hope she never finds this site!
markm
Member Since: September 11, 2005
entire network: 1,757 Posts
KitMaker Network: 590 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 09:33 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextMy wife is Russian, and speaks ENglish pretty well, but sometimes, we get into disagreements because she interprets something I say as meaning something completely differant simply because our languages are spoken differantly.
Ahh, but that haas nothing to do with a language difference, our beloved other halves will mis-interpet anything we say if it does not suit them...
Cheers
Henk
OH, my wife doesnt do that. When something doesnt suit her, she DELIBERATELY twists my words around to suit her needs. There is no mis interpretation there whatsoever LOL :-) God, I hope she never finds this site!
DITTO :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
CReading
#001
Member Since: February 09, 2002
entire network: 1,726 Posts
KitMaker Network: 558 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 10:00 PM UTC
Aside from everybody's initial responses over the last couple days, this (misunderstanding?) is between Terry and Dragon.
Seems like a lot of folks are trying to make this their own 'business'
Seems like some others are trying to stir the pot with unsubstantiated rumors.(to keep the 'debate' going?)
Better to just leave it alone and let the two parties directly involved mull it over.
C.
Seems like a lot of folks are trying to make this their own 'business'
Seems like some others are trying to stir the pot with unsubstantiated rumors.(to keep the 'debate' going?)
Better to just leave it alone and let the two parties directly involved mull it over.
C.
markm
Member Since: September 11, 2005
entire network: 1,757 Posts
KitMaker Network: 590 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 10:23 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Aside from everybody's initial responses over the last couple days, this (misunderstanding?) is between Terry and Dragon.
Seems like a lot of folks are trying to make this their own 'business'
Seems like some others are trying to stir the pot with unsubstantiated rumors.(to keep the 'debate' going?)
Better to just leave it alone and let the two parties directly involved mull it over.
C.
Very well said
janwillem
Member Since: October 01, 2003
entire network: 1,236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 153 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 10:37 PM UTC
I've been folowing this discussion here and over on missing lynx and I thought Kip Rudge said it best, so I toke the liberty of quoting him here (If I overstep some rule please let me know)
Quoted Text
Somehow I just knew this was coming...
I just really can't get behind this whole concept for a number of reasons.
First of all Terry accepts the same risks as DML when doing business in public. DML can respond to his reviews in any manner they see fit. The boundaries of decorum may have been breached, but no laws have been broken. I personally don't approve of DML's approach to dealing with Terry's very benign and objective reporting about DML kits. He is also one of the few web reviewers that have no ties whatsover to DML. I think it speaks volumes that no other web reviewers have incurred DML's whiny rants. He is an easy target.
But I feel sure Terry understands that, as he posts publicly, he can be called to account for what he says. And those who can criticise are not bound by the rules of common decency - especially on the web. It's already been established that Dragon doesn't fight fair, so why does everyone have their panties in a wad?
Dragon whines because they want attention, probably brought on by a massive inferiority complex to Tamiya. When we fret about their childish and ham handed attempts at marketing, it only feeds the fire. Instead of making statements with their products, they find proxies and proffer bogus info. In turn we provide lines and lines of free publicity about Dragon. It's an endless cycle that the powers that be at Dragon feed on. Any marketing guy, will tell it's all about buzz. Bad or good doesn't matter, just keep the buzz going. And that's why Dragon should send you guys paychecks - you just won't let it go.
Why don't we try this: First off don't mention Dragon or any of its products for three months. Yep 90 days with no Dragon - not good, not bad, not indifferent. Don't trade fix ideas, how much you love this or how much you hate that. just make Dragon disappear from this aspect of the web. Do not reply to the posters Dragon will send to goad you into commenting. It's not that hard.... ignore them as you would any child in the midst of a tantrum...
Terry has plenty of firepower at his disposal. His most effective weapon is to simply expunge any DML data from his website until Dragon gets control of itself. He provides the cretins mountains of free publicity, links to websites and photos of products. Simply deny Dragon the free use of his bandwidth. That also means Terry shouldn't review another Dragon product for 90 days - nothing - nada - zip - zingo - null set. My guess is that Dragon needs Terry far far more than Terry needs Dragon.
Another idea might be to simply boycott the next Dragon expo here in the states. Or if you go, make the drones that man the Dragon booths very uncomfortable by asking them what Dragon's policies are regarding reviewers, child labor, bloggers whatever... if they are anything like the ones i encountered in Atlanta two years ago they will smile alot and nod....and not know anything. But Dragon royalty does like to hold sway at these events and some pointed questions can be fired their way without fear of retribution or explusion.
In any event, if PMMS simply ignored them, the petulant little DML marketers would find another site to goad into a response. Until the posters show enough self restraint to ignore DML, and their antics, then they will play us for saps. But i would wager that if traffic regarding DML were to suddenly vanish.... then a little attitude adjustment would be forthcoming.
Just a thought...
MLD
Member Since: July 21, 2002
entire network: 3,569 Posts
KitMaker Network: 684 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 10:39 PM UTC
Perhaps there are subtleties and nuances in the zen story from the blog that I , as a gaijin, am unable to intrepret.
But since it is coming from a language whose word for barbarian and foreigner are the same, I will admit there might be room for more than one interpretation....
I chose to read the subtext of that blog entry as "we are doing great things for you, stop complaning"
The 'membership under review' status of people who have spoken spoken out or taken sides in a 'read only' company forum thing is a bit off-putting as well.
If there is any truth to the idea that some of the same people whose status is under review not being able to order the cyberhobby special kits adds another layer to the picture.
I wont be boycotting DML.
But if they choose to boycott me, my position will almost certainly and rapidly change.
Mike
But since it is coming from a language whose word for barbarian and foreigner are the same, I will admit there might be room for more than one interpretation....
I chose to read the subtext of that blog entry as "we are doing great things for you, stop complaning"
The 'membership under review' status of people who have spoken spoken out or taken sides in a 'read only' company forum thing is a bit off-putting as well.
If there is any truth to the idea that some of the same people whose status is under review not being able to order the cyberhobby special kits adds another layer to the picture.
I wont be boycotting DML.
But if they choose to boycott me, my position will almost certainly and rapidly change.
Mike
kevinb120
Member Since: May 09, 2006
entire network: 1,349 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 11:01 PM UTC
Well you have to admit that Dragon does seem to always have sand in their bikini whenever it comes to criticism lately(ahem, half-track tires-ahem). You would think they would show a little more decorum as being from a large company. Whoever is running their US public relations definitely needs an in-depth review with the boss, as I would never be able to behave like that on even one car sale, no matter how 'right' I was.... I love their kits, but if the new approach is to simply bash people online until their kits become magically 'correct 'instead of quietly fixing and improving them as they did at the beginning of their recent rise in status-there is plenty of room for AFV club, tristar, trumpeter, and tasca to fill in the blanks......
I have yet to see any thanks whatsoever(to the reviewer)for any constructive criticism of any of their recent reviews. I would have a lot more respect for them if the next batch of half tracks simply had both tires as an option without a word said about it. They would get a lot more good 'press' from that quiet move then shouting defiance over the 4% they didn’t get in a 96% review....
In the era of video console games and already-built r/c everything, The very few people that remain completey devoted such as Terry to one of the few true hobbies left need to get a little more respect. Anyone online hopes the manufacturer's read what we like, want, and do, you would think they would understand what to do with such extensive client feedback. I don't care how 'big' a company gets in the relatively small modeling world, they 'aint no Microsoft or Toyota....If they disappeared tomorrow, maybe .25% of the population would notice. Just this little site here is if Ford had a site with 12 million members....
I have yet to see any thanks whatsoever(to the reviewer)for any constructive criticism of any of their recent reviews. I would have a lot more respect for them if the next batch of half tracks simply had both tires as an option without a word said about it. They would get a lot more good 'press' from that quiet move then shouting defiance over the 4% they didn’t get in a 96% review....
In the era of video console games and already-built r/c everything, The very few people that remain completey devoted such as Terry to one of the few true hobbies left need to get a little more respect. Anyone online hopes the manufacturer's read what we like, want, and do, you would think they would understand what to do with such extensive client feedback. I don't care how 'big' a company gets in the relatively small modeling world, they 'aint no Microsoft or Toyota....If they disappeared tomorrow, maybe .25% of the population would notice. Just this little site here is if Ford had a site with 12 million members....
Kelley
Member Since: November 21, 2002
entire network: 1,966 Posts
KitMaker Network: 297 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 11:07 PM UTC
Tony while I understand what and why you are doing this I must say, it won't work. The main reason being there are far to many people in the modeling community that don't or rarely get on the internet and these people have no idea what is happening. Then there are the other people who just don't care. Put them together and Dragon will still be selling a lot of kits. Personally like you I have plenty to keep myself busy for quite a while. Add to that there are no Dragon kits out now or none to be released anytime soon that I'm dieing to have. So I'm not going to be making any purchases involving Dragon anyway. I don't like what Dragon has done but unfortunately I doubt anything we do or say is going to change that. I think Kip has the right idea, just don't talk about them at all, negative or positive, that might get their attention.
On a side note I have pre-ordered one of the Cyberhobby Wittmann Tigers, and did so the first day it was available. I'll be curious to see if it goes through.
Regards,
Mike
On a side note I have pre-ordered one of the Cyberhobby Wittmann Tigers, and did so the first day it was available. I'll be curious to see if it goes through.
Regards,
Mike
kevinb120
Member Since: May 09, 2006
entire network: 1,349 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 11:26 PM UTC
I'm not boycotting Dragon as they make decent kits, and I have several of all the CH kits and a few of the shermans, all the tigers, the halftrack, etc etc...But for cripes sakes thier public relations is like that of a 14 year old girl. Confirm an accuracy dispute or simply state where the misinformation came from in the kit's design, or fix it next time around and shut up about it. You never see stuff like this from an automaker or electronics company, or another model maker for that matter.... 
The tires from the M2 or the slightly wrong side armor plates on the easy 8 surely didn't keep me from rushing to get one. I just knew what I might want to choose to change when I built it. Big deal, no kit is perfect. Trumpeter's ships and aircraft and Dragon's armor are putting the hurt on the big (and a little lazy) Tamiya, don't ruin a good thing with bad public relations. A PR rep surely isn't a master mold maker, I can't imagine it being a very difficult position to replace....PR reps grow on trees like real estate agents...
The tires from the M2 or the slightly wrong side armor plates on the easy 8 surely didn't keep me from rushing to get one. I just knew what I might want to choose to change when I built it. Big deal, no kit is perfect. Trumpeter's ships and aircraft and Dragon's armor are putting the hurt on the big (and a little lazy) Tamiya, don't ruin a good thing with bad public relations. A PR rep surely isn't a master mold maker, I can't imagine it being a very difficult position to replace....PR reps grow on trees like real estate agents...janwillem
Member Since: October 01, 2003
entire network: 1,236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 153 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 11:44 PM UTC
Aparently "Toadman" has some issues with DML.
http://www.toadmanstankpictures.com/
keeps getting wierder
http://www.toadmanstankpictures.com/
keeps getting wierder
keenan
Member Since: October 16, 2002
entire network: 5,272 Posts
KitMaker Network: 2,192 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 11:53 PM UTC
Thanks for the information everyone. I always enjoy Terry's reviews. PMMS is actually the only other modelling website I visit on any sort of a regular basis.
Shaun
/Anyone that thinks DML will publicly apologize has got a lengthy wait on their hands, I suspect
//Ain't going to happen
///What percentage of their market has ever heard of PMMS or even Armorama for that matter?
Shaun
/Anyone that thinks DML will publicly apologize has got a lengthy wait on their hands, I suspect
//Ain't going to happen
///What percentage of their market has ever heard of PMMS or even Armorama for that matter?
jimbrae
Member Since: April 23, 2003
entire network: 12,927 Posts
KitMaker Network: 2,060 Posts
Posted: Friday, December 08, 2006 - 12:33 AM UTC
Isn't it ironic that the initial flare-up came from some ill-judged words on MDFC? Now, it seems that any kind of epithet (including Quisling) or a particularly distasteful photo-montage of Tianamen Square is considered a 'balanced' response.
@Janwillem - yes, Kip Rudge's response was perfect. Perfectly designed to cause maximum antagonism. Perfectly timed to throw another can of gas into the forest-fire that is starting (and with luck, WON'T spread to this site).
So before the collective blood-pressure, indignation and nastiness goes spinning completely out of control, take a look at the stories that are making headlines in the REAL world and ask yourself if this is just SO important. Perhaps the population of Sudan might disagree with you?
@Janwillem - yes, Kip Rudge's response was perfect. Perfectly designed to cause maximum antagonism. Perfectly timed to throw another can of gas into the forest-fire that is starting (and with luck, WON'T spread to this site).
So before the collective blood-pressure, indignation and nastiness goes spinning completely out of control, take a look at the stories that are making headlines in the REAL world and ask yourself if this is just SO important. Perhaps the population of Sudan might disagree with you?
 |
WEB HOSTING BY
Copyright ©2021 KitMaker Network and Kitmaker Network, a subsidiary of Silver Star Enterprises
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.