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The Alamo
darreng
Member Since: January 21, 2006
entire network: 789 Posts
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Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 02:03 AM UTC
What does anybody think of the re-make of the Alamo? I thought it was a better movie than the John Wayne version, but why did it cover the battle of San Jacinto, this had nothing to do with the Alamo?!
Halfyank
Member Since: February 01, 2003
entire network: 5,221 Posts
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Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 02:45 AM UTC
I would say it's a MUCH better recreation of the actual battle, though the original might be a better movie. That's for a critic to say. As to the Battle of San Jacinto I'd guess it was to give a "feel good" feeling to the audiance, so they could walk out thinking that while the Alamo was a defeat it was a victory in the end. Kind of like how the Doolittle Raid was done at the end of Pearl Habor, yccch, to make Americans feel good about themselves.
DD-393
Member Since: March 14, 2004
entire network: 97 Posts
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Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 05:14 AM UTC
John Wayne version - [i]Eew!/i]
I thought that this was a good movie. The hair was done right, the clothing and uniforms were done well, and everyone looked like they needed a bath. I also liked it because one of the guys from my Civil War reenacting unit was in it. He was a technical advisor. He came back on one of his weeks off and drilled us in Scott's Manual of Arms in Spanish. On the DVD he's there 111 minutes into it. He's firing the rockets.
I think that San Jacinto was the finale of the campaign, and liked that they put it into the film.
And they weren't Americans, at least at that time. They were mostly Mexican citizens, but considered themselves Texans.
[i]Charlie/i]
I thought that this was a good movie. The hair was done right, the clothing and uniforms were done well, and everyone looked like they needed a bath. I also liked it because one of the guys from my Civil War reenacting unit was in it. He was a technical advisor. He came back on one of his weeks off and drilled us in Scott's Manual of Arms in Spanish. On the DVD he's there 111 minutes into it. He's firing the rockets.
I think that San Jacinto was the finale of the campaign, and liked that they put it into the film.
And they weren't Americans, at least at that time. They were mostly Mexican citizens, but considered themselves Texans.
[i]Charlie/i]
MiamiJHawk
Member Since: April 07, 2005
entire network: 1,225 Posts
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Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 05:39 AM UTC
Darren:
As you well know, throught out history, particularily
during the 18th and 19th Centuries, "unethical
expansion" and a sense of Imperialism, meaning we
are stonger than that nation so we will invade and take
this nation for our own, was running ramped. Many in
what was the United States in the 1830s, thought about
"Manifest Destiny" and that the American boundaries
should expand all the way to the Pacific Ocean. Was
this right to subdue these weaker peoples such as
the Native Americans and the Mexican government?
In my view, no it wasn't. But it was done none the less.
So when we think about the Alamo story, it is a
romantic "battle cry" for the Texicans who survived that
day in Tajas against Santa Ana and his overpowering
forces. If you're trying to explain how Tejas became an
independent nation, for 9 years (it was admitted into the
union, the Nation of the United States after that time;
and that is a different story) you can't stop at the Alamo.
The Alamo was a terrible, yet romantic fight to the last
man defeat. Texas under the generalship of Sam
Houston, won their independence at San Jacinto,
which to the Manifest Destiny American "crowd", is
much more important !!! So I think that is why the
producers of the more recent version decided to
include that episode in the movie. It brings all that
era to a close; it explained how Tejax became a
nation, whether it was right or wrong. I'll leave that
question for people a lot smarter than I to explain.
As you well know, throught out history, particularily
during the 18th and 19th Centuries, "unethical
expansion" and a sense of Imperialism, meaning we
are stonger than that nation so we will invade and take
this nation for our own, was running ramped. Many in
what was the United States in the 1830s, thought about
"Manifest Destiny" and that the American boundaries
should expand all the way to the Pacific Ocean. Was
this right to subdue these weaker peoples such as
the Native Americans and the Mexican government?
In my view, no it wasn't. But it was done none the less.
So when we think about the Alamo story, it is a
romantic "battle cry" for the Texicans who survived that
day in Tajas against Santa Ana and his overpowering
forces. If you're trying to explain how Tejas became an
independent nation, for 9 years (it was admitted into the
union, the Nation of the United States after that time;
and that is a different story) you can't stop at the Alamo.
The Alamo was a terrible, yet romantic fight to the last
man defeat. Texas under the generalship of Sam
Houston, won their independence at San Jacinto,
which to the Manifest Destiny American "crowd", is
much more important !!! So I think that is why the
producers of the more recent version decided to
include that episode in the movie. It brings all that
era to a close; it explained how Tejax became a
nation, whether it was right or wrong. I'll leave that
question for people a lot smarter than I to explain.
GSPatton
Member Since: September 04, 2002
entire network: 1,411 Posts
KitMaker Network: 785 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 08:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Darren:
As you well know, throught out history, particularily
during the 18th and 19th Centuries, "unethical
expansion" and a sense of Imperialism, meaning we
are stonger than that nation so we will invade and take
this nation for our own, was running ramped. Many in
what was the United States in the 1830s, thought about
"Manifest Destiny" and that the American boundaries
should expand all the way to the Pacific Ocean. Was
this right to subdue these weaker peoples such as
the Native Americans and the Mexican government?
In my view, no it wasn't. But it was done none the less.
So when we think about the Alamo story, it is a
romantic "battle cry" for the Texicans who survived that
day in Tajas against Santa Ana and his overpowering
forces. If you're trying to explain how Tejas became an
independent nation, for 9 years (it was admitted into the union, the Nation of the United States after that time; and that is a different story) you can't stop at the Alamo.
The Alamo was a terrible, yet romantic fight to the last
man defeat. Texas under the generalship of Sam
Houston, won their independence at San Jacinto,
which to the Manifest Destiny American "crowd", is
much more important !!! So I think that is why the
producers of the more recent version decided to
include that episode in the movie. It brings all that
era to a close; it explained how Tejax became a
nation, whether it was right or wrong. I'll leave that
question for people a lot smarter than I to explain.
Rick,
Do you actually believe this or are you trying to provoke a fight?
Every country has what it believes is a "Manifest Destiny" America was no different than Mexico or France who held onto Mexico for a time.
Unethical Expansion - come on man what is your problem? Should America have stopped at the Blue Ridge Mountains or the Mississippi so bleeding hearts 200 years later wouldn't have to lament about America's fulfilling it's Manifest Destiny?
What the Alamo represents (the John Wayne version ot the Disney Remake) is a group of men wanting to be free and having the cajones to stand up for that right. Think about the men in that busted down mission. A thousand battle harden Mexican troops surrounding them and they still held out for 13 days. They knew they were all going to die and they still held their ground.
Rick, put your bleeding heart back and stand up for America and all it represents - the best it represents, the "Shining light on the Hill."
Back in the 1830's it was a 180 Texicans standing up to the might of Santa Ana's Army, today we have wave of illegals flooding across our borders, terrorists threatening our way of life and American's who think America is the enemy.
I believe it's time to "Remember the Alamo!" and fight for what we have and who we are.
spooky6
Member Since: May 05, 2005
entire network: 2,174 Posts
KitMaker Network: 613 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 12:24 PM UTC
Take break, Frank. We're discussing a movie and why it was produced in a particular way. Rick was giving his opinion in answer to a question.
AJLaFleche
Member Since: May 05, 2002
entire network: 8,074 Posts
KitMaker Network: 2,574 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 06:39 PM UTC
Quoted Text
group of men wanting to be free
Well, the whole issue of why there was tension between the Texicans and Mexico was the issue of slavery. The freedom they wanted was to continue to own slaves. The Mexican government was happy to have immigrants settle the land but they were a non-slavery country. The Texicans insisted on bringing theri slaves with them and drew the wrath of the Mexican government.
IIRC, Santa Anna gave notice he would be fighting under a black flag. no prisoners, no quarter. The folks n the Alamo knew this and decided to stay and fight against tremendous odds. How much of their action was foolhardy and how much bravery is not for me to decide. Their massacre, and the killing of surrendered prisoners comes under massacre ansd war crime in my book, gave the Texicans a rallying cry.
(I just found out Mexican law at the time allowed that anyone taking up arms against the government was considered a pirate and faced execution. )
bgazso
Member Since: January 25, 2006
entire network: 150 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 06:57 PM UTC
Like Charlie said, those guys were fighting for an independant country - not to become Americans, and I think the movie made that pretty clear.
Guys like Crockett and Bowie were pretty much washed up in the U.S. and were looking for a new start in a new country. Texas seemed to be that new start.
I don't think all the native Texicans/Mexican citizens would've fought the Mexican Army because they wanted to be Americans. That was also covered in the movie.
They fought for an independant republic and accomplished that goal. What happened years later is a separate issue.
All in all, a believable representation of what happened.
Barry
Guys like Crockett and Bowie were pretty much washed up in the U.S. and were looking for a new start in a new country. Texas seemed to be that new start.
I don't think all the native Texicans/Mexican citizens would've fought the Mexican Army because they wanted to be Americans. That was also covered in the movie.
They fought for an independant republic and accomplished that goal. What happened years later is a separate issue.
All in all, a believable representation of what happened.
Barry
spooky6
Member Since: May 05, 2005
entire network: 2,174 Posts
KitMaker Network: 613 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 10:22 PM UTC
I thought it was a great movie. The handling of characters like Houston, Bowie, and Crocket -- warts and all -- was superb. Showing their human flaws, but also (in the latter two) their undoubted courage. I thought the ultimate capture of Santa Ana was unnecessary, and (for a non-American) very much shoe-horned in for a feel-good ending. Sort of like having a Dunkirk movie, and then throwing D-Day in at the end to finish on a high note.
Torque
Member Since: July 03, 2003
entire network: 83 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 03:20 AM UTC
Quoted Text
... (for a non-American) very much shoe-horned in for a feel-good ending. Sort of like having a Dunkirk movie, and then throwing D-Day in at the end to finish on a high note.
Remember in 1836 these were not Americans per se but rather Texans/Texians fighting for independence from Mexico. A minor point I know, since all Texans are Americans now.
All of history is a series of events linked together and you can't really separate associated events like the culmination of the Texas War of Independence at San Jacinto from The Alamo or Goliad, for that matter.
The Alamo was a tragedy for the Mexicans as well as the Texans. I'm not sure how one can "feel good" about massacres. You may get a sense of revenge, however.
spooky6
Member Since: May 05, 2005
entire network: 2,174 Posts
KitMaker Network: 613 Posts
Posted: Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 11:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Remember in 1836 these were not Americans per se but rather Texans/Texians fighting for independence from Mexico. A minor point I know, since all Texans are Americans now.
Agreed. But in a modern context, and to the viewer, they ARE Americans. Particularly since modern Texas is perceived as one of the more conservative and overtly patriotic states.
Quoted Text
All of history is a series of events linked together and you can't really separate associated events like the culmination of the Texas War of Independence at San Jacinto from The Alamo or Goliad, for that matter.
True, again. But we're talking about a feature film here, not a historical documentary. We didn't see the US withdrawal from Somalia or the death of Aidid at the end of 'Blackhwk Down', did we? Though I believe it's mentioned. Historically, it would have been justifiable to show it as part of the film. But totally unnecessary from a cinematic perspective. Also, given the fact that some movies actually cut out the endings that would be unpleasant to Americans in order to end on a high note (and since people do pay to watch massacres, I think I'm justified in using this phrase) -- 'We Were Soldiers' is a good example -- I don't think it's unreasonable of me to feel this way about 'The Alamo'.
It'll be interesting to see which route the upcoming movie on Custer takes.
Torque
Member Since: July 03, 2003
entire network: 83 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 06:15 AM UTC
Quoted Text
It'll be interesting to see which route the upcoming movie on Custer takes.
I agree spooky, and thanks for your thoughts on "The Alamo".
Cheers,
Mark
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