Thought I would share this story with my fellow veterans -
A while back I run into this young PFc. and he after hearing I did 10 in the Navy says -So you were not in the "real" military?- I just laughed and said -I don't know-
I have fought main space engineering fires 4 decks down in 60 lbs of firefighting gear in 200+ temps in a smoke filled boiler room
I have stood 12 on 12 off watches for over a month in the Persian gulf.
I have run 40' boats in high seas at night.
I have landed CH 46 helos on a 50 x40 flight deck in high seas at night.
I have trained 150+ deck seaman in everything from small arms to firefighting.
I have done underway replenishment in sub zero to sub-tropical weather during storms and at night I have been in 3 hurricanes at sea.
I have stood deck watches in iceberg infested waters
I have supervised over 12,000 crane lifts of torpedoes and munitions as well as food and toilet paper.
I have received over 1000 tons of mail by helo and re-distributed it to the fleet and beyond.
I oversaw the building of a destroyer in Bath Maine and then helped get it through INSURV (a demanding series of test that the Navy requires prior to accepting a ship for commissioning)
I have climbed aloft in a lightning storm.
I have secured an anchor chain in the north Atlantic on an open fo'csle.
I have survived Shell backing , the Suez 6x, Bluenose.
I have secured boat booms in storms
I have watched shipmates die -I have buried friends.
But I guess since I never sat in a fox hole and ate MRE's I don't qualify for "your" military.
Don't take this wrong - I have nothing but love and respect for my brothers and sisters who wear the uniform but any body that thinks that the Navy isn't the "real" military needs a wake-up call. Now that I can no longer serve there is not hardly a night when I lay down to go to sleep I don't think that somewhere out in the dark there is a bridge crew standing their watches and protecting their sleeping shipmates

For me, military is military. Be it army, navy, airforce or whatever.

I have been in the artillery, conscripted. I haven't been in foxholes either etc.

But I tell you, the sandhares ( infantry) were pretty glad we were around.

Sounds like someone's got a chip lodged.

BTW my brother-in-law is in his 19th year in the Navy aboard LA class subs, but this tour he is on shore. He does think I am a nut waking up at 0500 to run several miles in the rain, snow, sleet, etc.

Time in the field isn't all that bad. Folks shooting at you, well, when I was young, it sort of PO'd me. I mean, heck, those nuts are shooting at me? How dare they!

Now that I'm older and wiser, let the young guys who think they will live forever draw fire. They are welcome to the real military.

I think the only 'real' military is in combat. Hope no one takes offense, but there are lots of civilians (firemen, sailors, pilots, builders, whatever) who do stuff as dangerous or more than any peacetime serviceman. Combat is where the military becomes the military, that's where it becomes 'real'. I don't know if the pfc in question's a combat vet or not, but if he isn't, then he isn't 'real' to me either.

I notced you put Sailors under a list of civilians-Hmmm.
I earned my combat Action Ribbon which is the naval version of the CIB (Combat Infantry Badge) - I quess it's all in ones perception. The military's primary function is NOT winning the wars -it's keeping the PEACE. BTW I was in desert storm - some old timers don't think that counts.

I think he meant sailors in the merchant fleet

Whoa!! Hold on there a minute! How DARE anyone say serving in the Military (regardless of branch or Nation) isn't in the "real" Military.

Who the hell is one to categorize any particular specialty? I've known folks in Admin that wound up on the front lines shooting and being shot at; my Dad was a submariner in WWII....he had some experiences I would NOT have wanted to be part of (massive depth charging, the sub nearly lost), I've been shot at by a BMP, a good friend in 101st was engaged by T-72's and directed to engage them with 105mm direct fire. A section mate (Artillery) was clearing friggin' booby-trapped bunkers. A very good friend and neighbor just came back....he's ammo and walked six miles, each way, clearing the road of the damned IEDs. Hell, the list goes on.

There is a special affinity for those that have been in direct combat; shooting and being shot at, but, let some little [auto-censored] belittle the Armed Forces, and he/she and I will have a personal and physical "meeting of the minds!" My nephew just joined the Army; he's in BT right now. Infantry of all things. I hope the hell he doesn't see Iraq or Afganistan, but if he does, his Father and I have told him to be the best he can, be the coldest, hardest SOB out there, protect himself and his buddies, and come home friggin' alive and in one piece.

John, would you care to introduce me that that punk of a PFC? I'd be MORE than happy to straighten him out.

David, you have a point: there is a difference between a combat vet and one that is not (it is the mindset), BUT....there are guys and gals that have gone through some [auto-censored] we haven't...and would not want to go through.

John, keeping the peace is the primary objective. Should that NOT work, it IS to win the war. You defeat your enemy or be defeated. I'm retired now and disabled, but bring my broke ass back in and I will put steel-on-target!

Screw those buttmunches that haven't a CLUE!!!

Mike (++) (++)

p.s. I've subscribed to this one. Bring it on.

I think he meant civilian sailors. I dare say, the vast majority of men at sea belong to civilian fleets vs. national navies. I don't think he (spooky6) meant any disrespect but it sounds like you are picking for a fight.

There are military pilots, military firemen, military builders (engineers), but those terms didn't offend you.

I'm just surprised that you take any credence in what a private first class has to say regarding another branch of service. I doubt he even has a full understanding of all the various jobs within his own branch of service.

He probably has no clue the Army has sailors, railroad men, fire fighters, veterinarians, air traffic controllers, and a multitude of personnel who don't see a foxhole past basic training.

Robin, not sure if this was directed to me.....your post is right after mine..... I kind of doubt it, but just in case, I'm not picking a fight. Rereading allows a second perspective. The comments were not intended to be pointed at anyONE in particular. Merely, stating, do not DARE to down play the men and women in the military regardless of MOS or rank. Hmmm, did this supposed PFC really have a clue? Spooky6's comments were valid, the premise that there is a difference between combat vets versus non-combat vets. There is. But, there are non-combat vets that have done stuff "we'd" rather NOT have to do. Just that combat brings it so close to home and so personal. You shoot me or I shoot you - if I have it my way, the "bad" guy is going to give HIS life for his country, not me...

Mike (++) (++)

No Mike, my comments were not directed towards you.

The Army's primary purpose is to close with and destroy the enemy. Our ability to do so deters other nations from instigating actions that may require our deployment to their neighborhood.

The US military, as a whole, does not "keep peace" unless we are under some sort of international charter or given a mission to do so. To think this is our primary function in naive. We neither declare war nor do we make peace. That is up to the civilian leaders and their methods of diplomacy. We are just another tool available to the civilian leadership to exercise our nation's will upon another organization.

Von Clausewitz would be proud.

Well I think all the men and women serving are fantastic.

Sir, sorry, and if I may, I salute you. That statement is so well stated and so damn true. By the by, neither for nor against. We do (or in my case, did) as we were directed to do. Touche'! Would I wish there were peace in the world? Yes. Is there, or will there be? I doubt it will happen any time soon. Blood will be spilled, but let us hope that that blood is honorable and never forgotten.

I, sort of, apologize for having so much vehemence about this subject.

Off the soap box!

Mike (++) (++)

Sounds like someone's got a chip lodged.
I don't think he (spooky6) meant any disrespect but it sounds like you are picking for a fight.

No -you would know it if I had a chip or was picking a fight- I give a PFC no credence I simply thought it was ironic and thought I would share.
"The mission of the Navy is to maintain, train and equip combat-ready Naval forces capable of winning wars, deterring aggression and maintaining freedom of the seas."

- straight from the CNO

I did, thanks.




Sure, just as there are many civilians who have gone through [auto-censored] that I wouldn't want to (the firemen in the WTC, the oil tanker crews going through the Straits of Hormuz in the '80s, the container ship crews currently held hostage off east Africa). But wartime combat is exclusive to, and what defines, the military. It's not always your own fault of course if there hasn't been combat in your career, and I don't hold it against anyone who hasn't been shot at. However, since the 'real' subject is the subject, there it is. Would you call a fireman who hasn't ever gone out on a call 'real', or a sailor who's never been out of port 'real', or a pilot who's only flown simulators 'real'? Maybe that'll make my point clearer .

Agree with Robin about keeping the peace. That's for diplomats and policemen. The definition of the warrior (air, ground, or sea) is to kill his country's enemies. I know it's a PC world, but there you go.

My personal experience as a soldier is minimal. Just 8 months in a peaceful army commanding a tank.

Nevertheless, war was all around all my life.

Growing up in an area that was one of the main battlefields of WW I is a "special" experience.

Certainly throughout childhood, not understanding the "deeper" meaning of your natural surroundigns, playing soldier with real "leftover" helmets, rusty (or in perfect condition) riffles, machine guns, grenades... that were to be found everywhere. Using wargraves, also everywhere available, as hiding places, ....

Quite "funny" to watch the farmers in the neighbourhood making walls each year on the border of their land with shells and bombs that surface during the ploughing season, or 80 year old corpses being removed from every building site around, or visit forgotten graveyards where those heroic soldiers of the WW I are not remembered by anything else than 30cm by 30 cm stones (which they have to share with 20 to 30 names).

What I mean is: it isn't important whether you were in the "real" army or not, what's important is that you survived to do better things. And I have known many people who would definitively qualify as "real" after years in the Ieper Salient or the Diksmuide bag that would agree with me.

My version of combat is rather mild and tame. I served 26 months in the infantry, from Basic school, to Specialist School did my tour as a section commander and finally finish off my tour as a platoon sergeant in the infantry.
Singapore may or might never see combat at all, the first and last time we draw blood was when our national carrier was hijack and our Special Forces blew the hell out of the Pakistani TAngo who took it. Mission Successfull...
And thats it.....
The closest i get to combat was when a group or armed robbers who escape from Malaysia on a boat landed on our off shore island...and this island is where the miliary house the basic school, specialist school and also where we have most of our training exercise. So what a stupid place for them to land...
I was issued live ammo and this time to shoot real targets...
The hunt was called off after the 4 idiots decided to surrender after 48hrs running in circles around the island.
I left the infantry in October 2004. Now i am a Fire Rescue Specialist with the Singapore Civil Defence Force aka..Fire Fighter.
Fire fighting might never beat combat, but its as real as it gets. People in pain, death and the heat...its very real.

Von Clausewitz would be proud.

To put my earlier post in perspective:

Der Krieg ist die blosse Fortsetzung der Politik mit anderen Mitteln.

Sound somewhat familiar?

War is a continuation of politics by other means. — Karl von Clausewitz
only as a last result -when diplomacy fails- I agree!
Don't forget-
We make war that we may live in peace. — Aristotle
for those who care-
Special Forces Weapons Sergeant (18B)
The 18 Bravo is the expert in all weapons including U.S. and OPFOR. Their weapons vary by mission. They can be equipped with the standard M4A1, or opt to use the M249 SAW and advanced marksman rifles.
Army MOS

Excellent response John.

A little secret, setting in a foxhole stinks (that's why we rode) and MREs are over rated.

Seriously, a very classy act in your response.

Take care Bro.

Steve

Define combat and a combat zone. I can recall lots of servicemen and women both German and American being killed by terrorist bombs in the 80s and MPs being killed in shootouts with terroists. I have never understood this rationale. The purpose of the military, at least when I was in, was to serve as a deterrent. I think we did a pretty good job...obviously we're all still here.

Bravo Zulu!
This is a naval signal, conveyed by flaghoist or voice radio, meaning "well done"; it has also passed into the spoken and written vocabulary.
Thanks for having my back Bro-

I'm with Steve on this one. To say that the only thing that "counts" in the Military is to be in combat can only come from someone who never wore a uniform.

And if they DID wear a uniform, they were NOT paying attention.

No real combat veteran would ever downgrade the importance of the rest of his comrades who provided the essentials that allowed the combat to succeed.

I can certainly agree that a finance clerk probably shouldn't earn a CIB, but to say he's not "in the military" is either misinformed or manifestly ingrateful.

I chalking this one up as serious operator head space.

Tom