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What could Japan do differently?
spooky6
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Sri Lanka
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Posted: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 01:01 PM UTC

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STOP SNIFFING THE GLUE!


Do you have ANYthing useful to say or did you just start up this thread to help you with your history homework?

Honestly give 1 reason which justly accounts for Japan's brutality towards civilian's throughout asia?
Every bit of materail for the Japanese war effert was forcefully taken, stolen, from asia?
We just had ANZAC day here in australia and new zealand, in Australia we have decieded to let our enemys march as well, except for the Japanese- so what japan did during ww2 is still pretty sensertive.


Well, mate, since you joined this thread, don't grumble when you get answers you don't like. Understanding your enemy's motivation, isn't just a requirement of warfare, but of maturity. So if you have a point to make or argue, why not come out with it instead of making juvenile comments?

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, Mark, read the posts before hitting the keyboard. I said I could empathize with some of the motivation behind Japan's move to war, not that I agreed with them, nor the current educational trends. Neither did I say I agreed with or felt any justification for Jpan's brutality to civilians and POWs. But no one side can be blamed completely for starting any war, as history shows. Australia's parade policy notwithstanding, if you want to discuss things here like an adult, bring it on. Keep the silly oneliners for school. Particularly since I doubt you suffered brutality at the hands of the Japanese. For someone who calims it's a sensitive issue, you are rather insensitive in your own comments.
Zacman
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Posted: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 01:35 PM UTC
[quote Particularly since I doubt you suffered brutality at the hands of the Japanese. For someone who calims it's a sensitive issue, you are rather insensitive in your own comments.[/quote]
My grandfather served in the Brtish Cav, in India, on the boarded with Burma, his unit was captured by the Japanese, he exscaped, what never sat well with him is what happened to others because he got away!
Empathy for japan - please get your hand off it!
spooky6
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Posted: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 01:58 PM UTC
Yeah, yeah, whatever. My grandfather was wounded in Libya, his cousin was MIA at Dunkirk, his uncle was killed on the Somme. Doesn't mean I hold a grudge against the Germans. If you want to rant on about your personal hate for the Japanese, why not start up your own thread? If not, let's stay on the topic of what Japan could have done differently to win.

As for what I can say, feel, or empathise with, that's my own opinion, and I'll state it (as long as it's on topic). I believe that's one of the rights the Allies fought for.
Zacman
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Posted: Friday, April 28, 2006 - 09:13 AM UTC

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Yeah, yeah, whatever. My grandfather was wounded in Libya, his cousin was MIA at Dunkirk, his uncle was killed on the Somme. Doesn't mean I hold a grudge against the Germans. If you want to rant on about your personal hate for the Japanese, why not start up your own thread? If not, let's stay on the topic of what Japan could have done differently to win.

As for what I can say, feel, or empathise with, that's my own opinion, and I'll state it (as long as it's on topic). I believe that's one of the rights the Allies fought for.

NOBSHINE i havent ranted about any personal hate for the japanese, i stated that there is still a lot of ill felling towards the japanese reguarding their acts of brutaity towards civilians, and there failure today reconise these acts is causeing problems in china among other places. You made it personal.
Zacman
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Posted: Friday, April 28, 2006 - 09:24 AM UTC

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As for what I can say, feel, or empathise with, that's my own opinion, and I'll state it (as long as it's on topic). I believe that's one of the rights the Allies fought for.




I WOULD like to point out that what Japan did in asia wasn't alot different from what the Romans, Vikings, English etc... did in the pre World War 1 world, and they never went through that particularly nasty little conflict and so didn't HAVE the culture changing experience that it was and so in the Japanese mind (even today to some degree) they were just doing what everyone did in war........
I WOULD like to say that, but it's not relevent so I won't....
My Grandfather also fought in Papua, on the Kokoda, and HE, A Veteran doesn't bear a grudge against the Japanese today, at all........
But this is also Irrelevant.......
What might be relevent is why the Japanese think they lost, basically "The Americans and the Australians didn't fight fair....."
Make of that what you will.....

As for you time line Romans, Vikings, English etc pre world war 1? I REALLY THINK YOU HAVE BEEN SNIFFING THE GLUE HERE ! You two must be really stupid, or in love with each other.
I would really like to hear you justify your last statement, about the " australian's and Americans not fighting fair" - I really think now i have heard it all !
spooky6
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Posted: Friday, April 28, 2006 - 11:13 AM UTC
Actually, Zacman, you should learn to read. Then the next step could be 'Articulation' (yes, it's English).

Probably your 'one-liners' work with you and your glue-sniffing mates, but it makes you look like a wanker here. So instead of emabarrassing yourself further, why not stay on topic, and instead PM me and we can discuss things on your level (I promise not to use long words)?
Zacman
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Posted: Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 08:52 AM UTC

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I would really like to hear you justify your last statement, about the " australian's and Americans not fighting fair" - I really think now i have heard it all !


It's not my statement, it's why the Japanese military at the time claimed they were losing. It's part of the mindset here. Pre-WWII Japan had fought very few land battles that weren't amongst themselves, where everyone was fighting using the same tactics and doctrine, so when they encoutered troops that fought differently, they became very upset and claimed "They are not fighting fairly!"

As for pre-World War I, I think you should go back and READ the statement again properly, then if you have any specific problems to point out, I would be more than happy to listen......

A poor tradesman always blames his tools- is that what your trying to say about japan, if you look at japanese military tactics in the early 30's against china, and then in asia in ww2 before the U.S. was involved, brutality was a big part of it, so your statement about Australians and the U.S fighting unfare- is a load of [auto-censored], maybe they sould teach in japan not start something that you cannot finish.
The 2 atomic bombs killed less civilians, than what the japanese army killed in asia.
As for you second point if your comparing the England( pre ww1) with the romans and viking- both romans and vikings both estabished modern city's for the day and pretty good trading systems, so if that's what your trying to say, then well said.
Zacman
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Posted: Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 09:25 AM UTC
I
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. If you want to rant on about your personal hate for the Japanese, why not start up your own thread?

.

I have no presonal hate for the Japanese, or any one for that matter!
You said "you could empathize with some of the motivation behind japans move to war"
What is that you have empathy for?
spooky6
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Posted: Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 10:53 PM UTC

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You said "you could empathize with some of the motivation behind japans move to war"
What is that you have empathy for?


Well, for a start, Japan's view that US trade practices at the time were unfair. They felt that they were being forced into an untenable position because of their economic or material weakness in certain areas, and therefore saw no option but to use military force in order to secure these areas of interest. We see many such parallels currently in other places but I can't use those examples 'cos we can't discuss current affairs here.

Similarly (if you are interested), I can empathise with a German population that felt it was being driven into poverty by victors who had won a war due to homefront betrayal. It saw no option, no future, no hope with the status quo, and therefore was easily susceptible to the seduction of the Nazi dream of expansion and empire.

These are broad views that (while arguably right or wrong) can be empathised with in the 21st century, and which longsighted strategists should try to avoid giving strength to in international relations.
spooky6
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Posted: Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 11:09 PM UTC
On the point of Japan's current unwillingness to see the wrongness of their WW2 ways, it is important to look at the way they were defeated as opposed to Germany (which has no modern day issues with realizing they were wrong).

Germany was beaten soundly in conventional battle, and its population and their subsequent descendents realized that they lost fair and square to respectable opponents from a comparable culture. In contrast, the Japanese felt (and I think feel) that the Allies chickened out and dropped the bombs because they didn't have the balls to go at it face-to-face (something many victims of terrorism feel today). Many Japanese feel that if the Allies landed in ops similar to D-day that they could have thrown them back into the sea. A nation that feels it wasn't fairly beaten isn't likely to be very contrite.

Also, Japanese at the time felt as culturally close to the white man as an earthling might to a Martian. Again, not very conducive to subsequent repentance. You can see similar parallels everywhere. You don't see great sorrow for how the whites treated the Red Indians, do you? Or how the Aborigines were treated by the original European settlers? When cultures have no empathy for each other, there's very little reconciliation, as can be seen right here on this forum, Mark, by your refusal to see the Japanese point of view.
thathaway3
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Posted: Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 09:30 PM UTC

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A nation that feels it wasn't fairly beaten isn't likely to be very contrite


This statement is exactly correct. And not just with respect to Japan at the end of WW II, as I suspect you're getting at.

One of the significant causes for the rise of Nazism in Germany after WW I was the widely held belief that Germany wasn't "beaten" by the allies but was sold out. The economic effects of the reparations imposed (mostly at the insistence of France) caused extreme hardship and no doubt help contribute to the worldwide depression in the 30's. Nazism provide ready culprits for the problem and also promised "solutions".

The second world war was almost inevitable due to the residue of the first.

Tom
spooky6
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Posted: Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 11:03 PM UTC

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A nation that feels it wasn't fairly beaten isn't likely to be very contrite


This statement is exactly correct. And not just with respect to Japan at the end of WW II, as I suspect you're getting at.


Absolutely. It's the same with the Vietnam War. Many American vets (and others) believe that even if they didn't win, they certainly didn't lose. Result is a bad taste that prevented Americans from owning up to a lot of the mistakes made in Vietnam. You don't see the respect for Viet Cong or NVA vets that we see displayed for the Germans.
Drader
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Posted: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 03:32 PM UTC

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In contrast, the Japanese felt (and I think feel) that the Allies chickened out and dropped the bombs because they didn't have the balls to go at it face-to-face (something many victims of terrorism feel today). Many Japanese feel that if the Allies landed in ops similar to D-day that they could have thrown them back into the sea. A nation that feels it wasn't fairly beaten isn't likely to be very contrite.


Looked at another way, nuclear weapons allowed Hirohito a face-saving way to end the war without the total destruction of Japan. Which I'm sure that the Allies would have carried out if Japanese resistance continued. And by playing the anti-communist card, he managed to retain his position. Result!

As for empathy/sympathy, the boundaries between the two are too blurred now to make arguing about which one is meant to have much point IMHO.

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