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Who wins? USSR vs Balance of Allies, 1945
staff_Jim
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Posted: Friday, February 17, 2006 - 12:56 PM UTC
I have raised this point before and will continue to do so in the future, but considering the height of war propaganda going on at the time how is it that military historians really know exactly how many Soviet troops, aircraft, tanks, ships, etc, were on hand to fight a war against the allies? How much steel, oil, aluminum, brass, rubber, medicine, etc, was on hand to keep building replacements? Just what were their real production capabilities? We know what they have reported of course. But was that likely the real truth of the situation?

The USSR against the world? Simple... they loose every time without nukes even coming into the picture. Anything else is some romantic view of super-human powers that never existed. A 1000lb bomb dropped by a B-17 or B-29 can do wonders to equalize a battlefield. And 100,000 of them dropped on Russia's industrial centers or military centers would have crippled them in the end. Just like it did the Germans, just as it would have done to the USA.

Just my view.

Jim

generalzod
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Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 01:24 AM UTC
I think the Russians could have taken over some of western Europe But just imagine that looooooooong supply line they would have to put up with

In late 2004 there was a book called "A Damn Fine War" Basically it was an historical what-if The Russians went on the offense after the end of hostilities

It's not a bad read I enjoyed it Patton was put in overall command of fighting the Russians I don't think if it was real life it would have ended the way it did IMO
jRatz
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Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 08:00 AM UTC
My two-cents; one scenario out of many plausible/possible ...

The British & Canadians are out of manpower. The US is stretched and is on the wrong-side of re-orienting itself for downsizing & redeployment to the Pacific.

So, things go very badly.

However, as some have suggested, there are a lot of countries/people who are very tired of being overrun and the partisan/guerilla resistance builds & builds, fueled by Russian atrocities ... Despite intense efforts to suppress same, these activites have an impact on the Russian forces and their advance ... German forces re-arm themselves, oft-times with assistance of local Allied Commanders .... Many die gallantly, but die they do -- no miracles of Tigers & Me262's & all that -- but the impact on the Russians is significant nonetheless ...

Following the initial shock, the Allies bring to bear the one thing they have -- strategic and tactical airpower. Despite the size, and even quality, of the Russian air force, the Allies have had several years to fine tune their methodology and have some pretty good numbers of their own ... Of course the assumption has to be that the Supreme Commander can prevent the air force(s) from conducting a purely strategic campaign and can focus their efforts on round the clock carpet bombing of advancing forces initially, then moving back to the Army level Command-and-control & logistics chains, then back to Front level. Russia was too vast & too dispersed to think of a true strategic campaign against strategic resources and manufacturing until much-much later ...

The Pacific War is continued, as is, without any massive build-up for the invasion of Japan. Island hopping continues to shrink the Japanese sphere of influence until basically the home islands are isolated. Efforts continue in China. Some airpower is diverted back to Europe or to strike Russia from the east or south. A couple carrier task forces prowl Kamchatka and onwards.

Before the end of 1945, the Russian forces are halted along the Rhine river and a line pointing roughly southeast toward the Swiss-Austria border.

No German technology is cloned -- there isn't time. Luftwaffe'46 doesn't happen.

Nukes are not used, at least not in western Europe. They haven't been tested at the time and when faced with the decision the thought of employing them against their own lands and countrymen and the continent is too much to bear. There are not enough of them to make a difference anyway.

A couple nukes are eventually used against Japan, and a couple more tossed into Russia, but not on Moscow -- racism still counts.

War-weariness on both sides turns into stalemate and for some number of decades thereafter there is little to no change in status. The Cold War happens, just differently. The results of WW2 in Europe & Asia are much different -- the number of possibilities become large & hard to predict.
-- Probably, the Allies care little for Korea and if there is ever a S.Korea, they do nothing when N.Korea invades ....
-- With all trace of the Holocaust obliterated, as well as x-million Jews, and everyone's attention focused on the stalemate, surving Jews are assimilated into what is left of Europe and never move back into the Mid-East which then is left to the various Arabic/Muslim nations ...
-- France, despite its proclivity for communism, looses its enthusiasm for Russian hordes, and the equivalent of NATO isn't tossed out -- in fact the threat is so real that DeGualle is soon tossed out of office & never heard of again ...
-- Britain resumes its' role as an "Island Fortress" and must suffer thru decades more of "American occupation", eventually loosing its identity.

I have an alternative scenario where the US just pulls out & lets Europe be overrun ... The world then divides itself into roughly 6 parts -- North America (US & Canada + Europen evacuees), Central/South America (but with US holding on to the Canal), Africa/Middle-East (which becomes largely irrelevant), SE-Asia/China, Russia/Europe, the Pacific (basically aligned, in pieces, with either Asia or N.America).

John
hellbent11
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Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 12:52 PM UTC
A tough one and a good thread! I would go with the Allies. Without writing pages here's my thinking;

Strategic air power B-29's etc... What did the Russian's have that could rain bombs on U.S. soil in massive raids like the 8th airforce did in Europe? The Allies could hit anywhere in Russia they wanted to in force.

Nuclear card... Played it twice before to keep from having massive losses of Allied men. Why not again and again? You can have millions of men and tons of equipment but it all turns to ashes with one plane and one bomb.

No Russian Navy worth anything... blockade the Black sea and the Baltic sea. Allies cut off Russia from vital supplies and raw materials. Allies can ship men and materials to whichever side of the continent that they pleased.

Allies stop shipments of arms and armaments to Soviets. What made up a large percentage of the Soviet inventory?

Allied (U.S.) industrial power... Russian industry just starting to gain momentum. Allied air raids and good bye russian industry.

Allied possesion of many of the German "V" weapons not to mention many vital German scientists specializing in these technologies like Werner Von Braun cranking out ballistic missles and such!

Just a few thoughts. Like I said, we could write pages about this stuff and many good authors have. I'm just glad that history turned out like it did for the sake of all of us!
SEDimmick
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Posted: Monday, February 27, 2006 - 08:58 PM UTC
From my understanding..the Russians where also very short on manpower themself's towards the later part of the war, due to the fighting with Germany. Most of its military manpower came from the Countries it liberated while heading back to Germany (Poland etc) to keep its army supplied. They lost over 10 million people, much more then what the US, the UK and Canada lost combined! They didnt have that much bigger of a popluation then those countries either...