Where have all the historians gone?
Tennessee, United States
Member Since: April 04, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 03:13 AM UTC
HULLOOOO! Anyone out there!!!!
I am just trying to find out what has happened to all of the historians (actually I just think of myself as a student of history).
I hope I haven't chased anyone away.
Anyone can start another thread - I am working on another list of books for the eastern front thread.
Ontario, Canada
Member Since: June 26, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 04:55 AM UTC
I am a student of history myself
I almost always read history, usually WW2 but some others.
Ranger, have you read or heard of "The Gates Of the Alamo"
It is a great book, check it out
Andrew
"If the tanks succeed, then victory follows."
Col. General. Heinz Guderian
PE Expert
Tennessee, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 04:14 PM UTC
Herr Oberst - I have not send this book. Is it, as the title suggests, about the Texas War for Independence, or something deeper? I have only read some overview histories of the Mexican-Texas war.
Jeff
Illinois, United States
Member Since: March 16, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 12:13 AM UTC
Hello Ranger. I think Historians are still around. They are probably just a little busy looking for good books to give out for Christmas.
My wife and I made a trip to Philadelphia recently, which has lead to a number of books on my stack having to do with the Revolutionary War (not much AFV modelling possibilities there, I'm afraid). Three books I've enjoyed the most on the subject are "The Day the American Revolution Began: 19 April 1775" by William Hallahan; "Patriots" by A.J. Langguth, and "John Adams" by David McCullough. All of them have to do more with the political environment at the time, as oppossed to the military situation. Fascinating stuff - really makes you appreciate the efforts of the leaders of the time.
Anyway, I didn't think the time period or subject would be of interest to most on this board (most of the topics I've seen are 1940-to present in terms of time frame), so I haven't had much to suggest.
Next book on the stack is "An Army at Dawn", so hopefully that will spark new topic ideas.
Mike
Virginia, United States
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 01:03 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hello Ranger. I think Historians are still around. They are probably just a little busy looking for good books to give out for Christmas.
My wife and I made a trip to Philadelphia recently, which has lead to a number of books on my stack having to do with the Revolutionary War (not much AFV modelling possibilities there, I'm afraid). Three books I've enjoyed the most on the subject are "The Day the American Revolution Began: 19 April 1775" by William Hallahan; "Patriots" by A.J. Langguth, and "John Adams" by David McCullough. All of them have to do more with the political environment at the time, as oppossed to the military situation. Fascinating stuff - really makes you appreciate the efforts of the leaders of the time.
Anyway, I didn't think the time period or subject would be of interest to most on this board (most of the topics I've seen are 1940-to present in terms of time frame), so I haven't had much to suggest.
Next book on the stack is "An Army at Dawn", so hopefully that will spark new topic ideas.
Mike
Mike--let us know your thoughts on an "Army At Dawn". I think it is superb! Anxious to hear what you think about it.
DJ Judge
COL (R), USA
"Tanker Boots do not a Tanker Make."
Ontario, Canada
Member Since: June 26, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 01:08 AM UTC
I've already mentioned a few of my favorite books in this forum.
Jeff, as for you question on "the Gates of the Alamo", it is a great book written from the perspective of people who were there that starts before the conflict and then explains the consequences afterwards. The best part of the book is the perspective of those who were there which really alows you to get a feel for Texas.
Also, not WW2 history but still good is the Horatio Hornblower series.
Happy reading
Andrew
PS DJ, you are right, "An Army At Dawn" is fabulous, it is already among my favorites and I am not yet done
"If the tanks succeed, then victory follows."
Col. General. Heinz Guderian
PE Expert
New York, United States
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Posted: Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 06:37 AM UTC
An excellent book on 'recent' military/political history, and timely in light of current world events, is Michael Oren's "Six Days of War" on the 1967 Arab-Israeli war. The cast of characters reads like a novel: tough-talking U.S. president (Johnson), over-stressed Israeli PM (Eshkol), messianic Egyptian leader (Nasser) and two future leaders in the wings (Sharon and Sadat). A must-read for its study of the policy of preemptive strike, backroom diplomacy and effectiveness of the U.N. Sound familiar? (:-)
Tennessee, United States
Member Since: April 04, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 04:38 PM UTC
Thanks for the review on "Six Days of War". Saw it this week at Books-a-Million. Haven't got it yet.
California, United States
Member Since: September 04, 2002
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Posted: Monday, December 09, 2002 - 05:30 AM UTC
The last great Historian passed away a short time ago. Stephen Ambrose wrote history like it happened not the way the PC crowd wants it to have happened. The Politically Correct have begun to infect even how things happened by rewriting history and putting their personal political bias on everything.
I just read an e-mail from a friend on how these new historians are now condemming the day an night bombing of Germany because of the civilian casualities. This is the same ilk that decries the dropping of the atomic bombs, but is strangly silent on the holocaust - and the Japanese horrors in the Pacific - strange??
"Dear SHAEF, I have just pissed into the Rhine River. For God's sake, send some gasoline." General George S. Patton.
Washington, United States
Member Since: May 23, 2002
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Posted: Monday, December 09, 2002 - 06:46 AM UTC
Mike--let us know your thoughts on an "Army At Dawn". I think it is superb! Anxious to hear what you think about it.
I guess I would consider myself one of the "historians" and yes I have been gone for a while. Just got back from a few weeks in Japan. Haven't been able to do much modeling in the last month but several 10+ hour flights over the Pacific have given me some reading time !.
"Army at dawn" is a pretty good read. A lot of insight into the American Army's leadership (good and bad) and unpreparedness in the North African campaign. Good blow by blow accounts of the battles. The book is about the American Army but I still felt the Author could have fleshed out the details on the Germans/Italians a little more. I was actually inspired to build a Tiger (504th battalion) after reading this. Anyway, it is definately worth reading.
v/r,
Cob
Canada
Member Since: May 31, 2002
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Posted: Monday, December 09, 2002 - 06:47 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The last great Historian passed away a short time ago. Stephen Ambrose wrote history like it happened not the way the PC crowd wants it to have happened. The Politically Correct have begun to infect even how things happened by rewriting history and putting their personal political bias on everything.
I just read an e-mail from a friend on how these new historians are now condemming the day an night bombing of Germany because of the civilian casualities. This is the same ilk that decries the dropping of the atomic bombs, but is strangly silent on the holocaust - and the Japanese horrors in the Pacific - strange??
There have always been revisionist historians and there always will be (this isn't a bad thing at all). It's important to realize that historians have their own personal views on their topics of study. History is analysis, not just narrative. While some historians today propose new ideas, others back the old ones up with new evidence or propose completely different ideas of their own. Not all historians see things the same way and you can be quite assured that Mr. Ambrose's death will not be the end of good WWII history.
Nic
Pig #5 - Italian military attaché to Der Sonntag Bund
Virginia, United States
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Monday, December 09, 2002 - 08:13 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Mike--let us know your thoughts on an "Army At Dawn". I think it is superb! Anxious to hear what you think about it.
I guess I would consider myself one of the "historians" and yes I have been gone for a while. Just got back from a few weeks in Japan. Haven't been able to do much modeling in the last month but several 10+ hour flights over the Pacific have given me some reading time !.
"Army at dawn" is a pretty good read. A lot of insight into the American Army's leadership (good and bad) and unpreparedness in the North African campaign. Good blow by blow accounts of the battles. The book is about the American Army but I still felt the Author could have fleshed out the details on the Germans/Italians a little more. I was actually inspired to build a Tiger (504th battalion) after reading this. Anyway, it is definately worth reading.
v/r,
Cob
COB--great to have you back safe and sound. Build the Tiger, great model and superb kits out there. Also, may I recommend you read and comment on the thread in this forum on the Canadian incident in Afghanistan. Some good thoughts contained there.
DJ Judge
COL (R), USA
"Tanker Boots do not a Tanker Make."
Wellington, New Zealand
Member Since: May 01, 2002
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Posted: Monday, December 09, 2002 - 11:34 AM UTC
Iagree with you, Nic The PC crowd are condemning the night and day bombing droppinig of the atomic bomb and so on but the japanese death camps the Baatan death march they don't seem to care about Because these did not afect the civilians. what is the difference? Nothing people died. and in war sacrifices have to be made would if the Americans had no dropped the atomic bomb many more millions may have died
andrew barclay
"Da Kiwi Kid"
Andrew Barclay
Canada
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Posted: Monday, December 09, 2002 - 12:24 PM UTC
I don't think "politically correct" is quite the word we should ascribe to historians arguing for these kind of theories. Being politically correct in history does not mean condemning every remotely immoral action (that would be bad history as we should not place our current values upon the events of another time). I would say that this "movement" to become more PC deals more with writing history with less bias. Historians who are bringing forth these new views would be referred to as "revisionists." The problem with revisionists is that initially they tend to exaggerate or focus emphasis on one point while ignoring another (condemning Allied bombings while not mentioning Axis atrocities). What usually happens is a "post-revisionist" movement which combines the traditional and revisionist viewpoint. That's what's so interesting about history; it is always changing.
Nic
Pig #5 - Italian military attaché to Der Sonntag Bund
New York, United States
Member Since: November 13, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, December 22, 2002 - 12:32 PM UTC
Folgore has an important point. Whenever an historian examines the past, he or she may bring their biases or opinions in examining decisions, actions and events but, ultimately, must judge history through the participants' time and place, not our current viewpoint. Just because we can say "if we knew then what we know now" does not rule out a more balanced appraisal of history - however painful and contradictory it may be. There is a current debate about a bombing that did not happen - FDR's knowledge of the concentration camps and his inaction in not destroying all or part of them, as related in Michael Beschloss' new book , "The Conquerors". Of course, he did not know the Holocaust would become one of the seminal events of the 20th century - I think he merely had to weigh intelligence, military and political factors in making his decisions - or lack thereof. War seldom brings out the best intentions or plans in any leader - however lauded FDR may be. Still, it is good to see historians take on 'sacred cows' and come to conclusions based on sound re-examination of the archival evidence.
Al Stagnaro (:-)
Manitoba, Canada
Member Since: August 27, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, December 22, 2002 - 05:57 PM UTC
I am not sure if this is true and if it isn't someone please speak up, but I heard that the US is still handing out the purples hearts today that they had ordered in preparation for the invasion of japan. I wonder if the historians today that think the atomic bomb wasn't needed really give all the factors that went into the decision their proper weight. How many more Japenese civilians/troops would have died if the US had invaded and destroyed the country village by village.
Its easy for us monday morning QB's to question what went into the decisionmaking process back then. Its easy for a person of my generation that has grown up in relative peace and prosperity to view things like the firebombing of tokyo and the atmic bombs with disdain. But a good historical writer shouldn't put too much of his own totally detached perspective onto a subject. If I was in charge after a long and bloody war faced with an enemy that seems like it won't surrender, and almost magically a wonder weapon might end the war with no more casualties on my side.....hmmmm. You have to put those tough controversial decsions into context before they are dismissed as "mistakes." I think some PC historians don't do that.
I'm Hudson Sir, he's Hicks.
Canada
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Posted: Monday, December 23, 2002 - 08:15 AM UTC
Those are very good points, bison. The American general staff did believe that an invasion of Japan would lead to enormous casualties. They also believed that dropping the atomic bombs would bring the war to a quick end. Though this appears to have been the case (after two bombings, the Japanese did ask for peace) whether or not the bombs had such an effect is actually a topic to be debated. It has been suggested that the Soviet entry into the Pacific War and her invasion of Manchuria had more impact on Japanese surrender than the atomic bombs did. Here is another example of historians looking at new ideas, though there is nothing PC about it.
Nic
Pig #5 - Italian military attaché to Der Sonntag Bund
United States
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Posted: Monday, December 23, 2002 - 02:47 PM UTC
An essay I read by Paul Fussell Was "Thank God for the Atom Bomb". He was an Infantry Platoon Leader wounded in Europe, then sent to the Pacific for the future invasion of Japan. He wrote that most Authors who where against the atom bomb were the farthest from the fighting.Talking about John Kenneth Galbraith(Who worked in the Office of Price Adminstration in Washington) "I don't demand that he has his ass shot off. I merely note that he didn't". If it is your life being saved you probably don't care how many of the enemy at the time dies.
brian
