Some comments on constructive criticism:
In the past, I've asked people for their comments on my figures and in turn been asked for my comments on others work. I do appreciate the nice things people have said about my figures. But it's very easy to misunderstand an offhand comment.
Or worse, to make one that offends somebody.
For myself, critiquing a model or a figure from a picture can be very tricky. For instance, a feature might be just fine but look washed out by the flash from the camera. It's just that there is no way to know for sure.
I would rather mention a feature that I like rather than post a slightly negative comment that might be incorrect and misleading. My greatest fear would be to inadvertently discourage someone from continuing in the hobby. A comment delivered face to face, where you can see and hear the persons delivery, is a much better way to suggest or receive an improvement in technique. To read an honest critique in cold, black letters on a screen can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings. I've been on both sides of that fence and it can be difficult, if not impossible to undo damage once it's been done.
I'm curious to hear what others think on this subject.
And I really hope that no one takes any offense from what I've said!
Thanks,

You are correct. It is often very difficult to evaluate images on screen. Lots of different factors, photography, image software, subject, etc. etc.
I often take two or three looks at an image to try to see what may be affecting my judgement. Then I try and phrase the criticism in a way to offer suggestion without being overly harsh or by leaving my ignorance in the statement. Such as 'It may be the light... or I can't tell from the photo...
I would hope that people posting photos would understand these kinds of considerations and take the comments accordingly. This post will also educate those reading it, so good job on starting the thread.
On the criticism side I would suggest to all to write a critique that you would not mind reading yourself.
On the recipient side I would suggest that you realize the comments are coming from a photo and they may not reflect the actual quality of the kit. And by all means don't stop because someone else doesn't like it. I'm in this hobby to please me.

I have the same thing Mongo maybe I had it with you too

Often people thought that I reacted angry to a comment but there is no intention for me to do that. I always learn from comments and critique. If I react it will be never ever agry ment if people take it that way I have to apologize myself for that.

so sorry if people are feeling insulted by something what I said before or what I`m going to say in the future. But by everything I post in the future keep this post in mind

Well, I went to art school so I certainly have been through a lot of critiques.

I think there's a difference between being critical in a constructive way and being mean spirited. The problem is knowing what the line between those are. And, it may have to do with who the critic is.

One thing you do need, no matter what, is a fairly thick skin.

I've been hurt in the past by some comments of my work (not really models, which is just a pastime or hobby) and it bothered me. But, then when I thought about it, the comments were helpfull. I was not being objective about my work and there were things I needed to correct.

Sometimes life is rough and you need to be honest and listen to what is being said.

But, if this is a hobby and your not selling your work, it's up to you to decide what you like. If you ask for honest opinions, expect nothing less than that. It may not be what you want to hear, but it could be usefull in the long run.

(As far as the judging from a picture, there is no easy answer for that. Just think about the differences in computer monitors and under what conditions they are viewed...)

Steve

same with me Sniper

As I`m a multimedia design student very many of my projects are really torpedoed by my teachers and I agree with you you need to have a very thick skin even at your soul, man

You've summed up basically why I stay away from the Rivet Review Board Threads for the most part. I have a discerning and quite critical eye for evaluating a model and will tell you when asked. However, I also have encountered modelers who are not really ready, willing, or able to take a critical viewpoint - regardless of what they say. It (review comments) invariably intrepret into "challenges" to prove someone's self-modeling-worth and often taken in a hurtful manner. It's one thing to point out that a modeler seeking such review should be "thick skinned" enough to take it - and quite another for that person to take it. Hurt feelings are compounded by the coldness of black & white print on a computer screen. And, trying to evaluate something on a screen is pretty difficult when considering photo quality and such.

The whole concept is not a comfortable one for me...

Gunnie

I am fairly new to this site and must say that I haven't really seen what I would call vicious comments. I agree that I think alot of it depends on the individual and how they read the post.
I think the way to try to avoid people being offended is once you have wrote a post is to read it again, a few times I have re-wrote or just deleted it altogether because the wording did not sound "friendly" enough.
I also only try to give comments on factual stuff I know or i specifically say it is my opinion and I always try to make a positive comment before a suggested improvement/comment.
If you are unsure about the post think to yourself "would I like to recieve this?".
I read the posts before I put my first pictures on and asked for comments and I expected and recieved what I got, polite and constructive comments. For a complete beginner to feel this confident amongst a group of "old sweats" is a testament to the nature of the site.
Many thanks for what i feel is a helpful and friendly site
Robbo :-)

I recently had a no comment incident and will say this..........as far as the forums, constructive comments are just that,constructive.I generally don't comment on the Rivet Review or other photo posts.Like it is stated,there are too many variables.If I posted on the Rivet Review,I would expect someone to say that something didn't look right here or there,but I would expect them to give possible solutions or feelings of unity for the problem. Like it has been said,there is a difference between constructive criticism and mean spiritedness.I also went to art school and noted the difference between someone honestly trying to help someone with critique and someone boosting thier own fragile self esteem by bashing someone elses work.Misery loves company and i for one think it's a company of fools.I am not trying to piss anyone off,or step on toes so I kindly apologize before anyone takes this post personally.No offense was intended.

Great forum thread Mongo Mel!

I appreciate all the comments submitted so far on this thread as they are well thought out and honestly written.

Personally, I rarely post a critical comment on the Rivet Review Board for two reasons.

First, as a modeler, my skills are not yet advanced to the point where I feel comfortable submitting a photograph of my own work for critique, let alone critiquing another's. I know my modeling shortcomings, and I'm trying to improve. I try and pick up as many tips as possible from other modelers, and use them to improve my own work. For this I thank all of you who post to these forums.

Second, my knowledge of what the "real life" vehicles should look like, (in many instances), falls far short of the expertise others have that frequent this site. I am amazed at the levels of knowledge many modelers have about specific armored vehicles or a particular aircraft. Again, I try to read and learn from these people.

So in a nutshell I'm not overly qualified to be critical of other peoples work so I don't do it.

But, I will chirp up with complements if I like something. In my opinion, anyone who posts to the Rivet Review Board obviously has pride in their work, or they wouldn't show it. Heck, its easy to give a complement, and even more fun to get one.

Criticism is a difficult thing. We often see flaws in the works of others, but not in our own work... just like we all think our kids are geniuses!

While some criticism may "sting" a bit (Gee, i didn't think it was that noticible"), I must admit that if people told me my early crap looked great, I'd still be making the same mistakes - and the same kinda crap!

I think the key is the delivery medium... telling someone "the arms look all wrong" or "that tank never used that kind of track in the Afrika Campaigns" may be a little hard to swallow for the builder. Remember - this is supposed to be FUN!

Best situation is to ALWAYS tell someone the things you find of high value, and then mix in your critiques. An example might be the way a fellow critiqued one of my earlierst works.... he stated the color of the panzer was quite good, and that my overall concept was a neat idea... but I should read about the neat ways that FUTURE wax could help my decals from "silvering"... it became more of a suggestion than a direct slap. Always appreciated that message, and try to keep it in mind when I offer others "suggestions"!

Hey all!

You must think why you do this...for yourself...(and to show off abit)...Yes its always good to get good comments!...But all in all its what you think of your work....And if someone criticises your work well think three words....*I got connections!!! * But seriouslt all in all it dosent matter what everyone sais!...Its what you say to yourself.

Before I joined Armorama I just painted my armour and figues by what looked good...sometimes they werent "historicly" correct but I liked them!...
Now I have been making models "historically" properly and it is better.

. Remeber!...its what you think or say about your model that is the final word!

Good luck guys

Cris

I'm not sure I understand where this thread is headed. Maybe there have been some bad incidents in the Review Board that I am unaware of. Personally, I don't read or respond to those, so I think I'm speaking of criticism in general.

I have to be honest in saying that I have learned more from 'negative' comments than I have from 'positive' ones. Often, I feel more comfortable with criticism than I do with praise.

If we are just talking about models here, then I don't think people need to get too bent out of shape about harsh comments. For the vast majority of us, it's a hobby. We wont lose our job or fail out of school becase we didn't impress someone. So, I really don't see any pressure here other than to do better on the next model than you did on the last.

Usually people who are really good at something don't need to make themselves feel superior by trashing someone else. In fact, they try to be encouraging and share some of their knowledge. And, if they do point out a flaw they are the ones we need to pay attention to.

But, I do think my comment about being thick-skinned is a valid one. Sure bad comments can hurt, but so what? Sometimes life is a bit unfair. Look, we can't succeed at everything we do, why is building a model different? If a comment is bothering me, it's usually because there is some truth in it!

If someone quits the hobby because of a negative review, maybe they ought to be collecting baseball cards or beer cans instead. This is a hobby that requires some skills that may take some time to develop. Some will learn quicker than others.

We can all sit here and say 'build for yourself' and 'it's only you that you have to please' but we also know that's only part of the truth. We all see great models at shows or in magazines and wish we could build at that level. And, I'm sure we get down when we can't duplicate what we saw in Fine Scale Modeller. To me, that's part of the fun - trying to improve and get better at the hobby. If you keep building the exact same way each time and refuse to try some new stuff, where's the fun? You might as well be watching the same movie over and over again.

What I tell my students is to be wild and fresh. Try new things. Steal from what inspires you and take it to the next level. If you know anything about art history you begin to realize that art is a progression. Nobody reinvents the wheel. Instead, they build on what others have done and give it their own twist. It may take years to get there, but eventually it happens.

And, remember, they're a lot of idiots out there! If someone is telling you that your shade of olve drab doesn't match this or that reference or that the position of a bolt is few scale inces off, so what? Tell them it's artistic expression...

Steve

Hola!

Id like to put a couple a cents in this

First of all, if you ask for constructive critisism, you should get it and be prepared for what ever may come. I am sure no one on this site would just say "Man thats just sucks" or something brainless like that. When I ask for thoughts etc, I ask for things that can help the model/figure/sculpture to become a better piece then it was when I asked for the help, or even to help for the comming projects, and keep those suggestions etc in mind. I am a pretty easy going open kind of guy though, so I dont really take offense about such a thing as some stupid brainless comment from someone who thinks they know better, even if they do know better, (which most do ).

As for receiving constructive critesism on a project, just post something like this ( Im using an example of my 120mm figure sculpting project) "I would appreciate your comments and suggestions, specially things like: the pose, the wrinkles - should there be any more or is there too many? Are the folds in the right places? How does the forhead look? Does the nose look to big to you to? etc etc etc." If you ask for specific problem areas that you want suggestions on, then you have semi 'control' of what you expect them to say, hence you will be prepared more for what ever answer and you wont be so discrimenated about asking more questions or showing your work. Hope this makes sense

Hi all,
The original intent of my post was simply to address the difficulty of offering constructive criticism based on a photograph on the computer. I didn't mean to suggest that there had been any mean spirited posts. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen any post that was remotely unpleasant. That's one of the best things about this site, everybody here is relaxed and respectful.
For myself, when I've posted a photo and asked for comments, that's exactly what I wanted. I was asking for other sets of eyes to spot any flaws that I missed. It's the same method we use at work (there is nothing quite like having your drawing covered with red comments, laid out for everyone in the office to see!).
Now that I've been on the other end of that stick, I realize how uncomfortable I might have made someone by asking for a critique of my work based only on a photograph.
Still, asking for comments from someone whose work you admire is one of the best ways improve. Without it, I never would have improved my modelling skills.
OK...enough from me.
Thanks to everyone that responded. A lot of good and interesting points have been made. Keep them coming!
Thanks,

That was one of the few things I took away from my educaton classes those many years ago in college. I try to avoid commenting much on other people's work and have asked permission of one builder who was very proud of his work if I could add my two cents. On another thread, another builder who was very proud of his work and had shared his work with us all the way through had a very bad error in the final work, and not a "wrong shade of gray" type of error. This bad boy was glaring. I chose not to say anything, since I think mentioning this would have been hurtful.

Two more cents from me - I will also guage if my comments can be effective. If its obvious my comments are late in the construction phase or if it's post build I may not say anything because it couldn't be taken into account and used as good information.

My thoughts are also from a long-bygone college writing course. Everyone had to have their writing critiqued by the entire class continually, and the lessons were simple.

Always start with positive comments, since all projects have something positive.

Some people are better than you, others are not, but everyone produces quality.

When you critique, the criticism must be objective, not subjective. Simply, only technical issues should be pointed out, since anything else is a matter of opinion.

All criticism should be phrased in a thoughtful manner.

Most importantly, all criticism should point to improvement

Now, I appreciate the sensitivity people seem to be expressing on this list. However, if all everyone does is nod when I post something, then I'm not getting the full benefit of the people on this list. If I've mucked up a detail, like getting the sprocket / idler mixed up, I'd sure like for people to point it out so that I can improve on the next go-around.

My opinions,
Mika

personally, i feel rivet and bolt counters have done more to hurt our hobby than any other factor. and IPMS is one of the major culprits. they should put away their penlights and dental mirrors, and go more for aestetics. had three friends leave modeling due to rivet counters.

Chris Pig no.1

I couldn't agree more!

If someting is going into a museum, then surely you want as close to 100% accuracy as possible in plastic.

If it's a hobby and meant to be enjoyed, sure you want to be as honest as possible, but 1mm here or there won't hurt anyone.

Steve

If i post a pic and ask for a constructive critique,that is what i want,not a destructive one,and despite modelling and painting for about thirty year,i find that i am learning more all the time from advice on this site,and that is the fun in this great hobby of ours,and the fun of this site,not like some of the Penal colonies that masquerade as modelling forums. So lets stick togerher and bomb the rivet counters.
Arthur.
Am Alba Mannich