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Contest Blues
sniper
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Posted: Monday, November 25, 2002 - 07:57 AM UTC
Hi, I'd like to relate a somewhat negative experience at a recent contest and was wondering if anyone has a similar story. Sorry if it's a bit long-winded.

Please know that this is not a 'sour grapes' post. I won first place (in a very competitive category I might add ) with my one and only entry, so my problem isn't about not winning.

OK, my problems are these. This contest is planned well in advance; it's a yearly event. Why then would there be a call for qualified judges and assistants while the show is underway!? When they were getting ready to judge the entries, the organizers suddenly realized they didn't have enough judges (even though the number of models was about the same as the previous year). That seems strange to me.

So, they find some people to fill in as judges. Now the problems really start.

They get some of the young people with entries in the junior division to act as assistant judges. While it's fine to involve young people in a hobby, should they really be judging entries that adults have worked (maybe long and hard too) on? A senior judge tells them what to look for and then they go to it. And what the judge tells them to look for, in the armor categories, is ONE very particular thing!

Now, they also recruit an adult judge who has entries in the same division that he is judging!! Not the same exact category, but the same division. And, he tells the junior assistant judges what they 'should be looking for' before they judge his work while he is standing next to them! To me, this is nuts.

How do I know this, you wonder? Well, I was allowed to sit in on the general judging. Oh, not because I asked, but because the contest room remained open during the judging. So, people are still messing with their entries while judging is going on!

Besides the judging there was one other thing that really seemed unfair. I had finished my entry the day before the contest (great timing) and built it with the contest in mind. I thought it would be nice to enter and hopefully get some feedback. My problem is that some guy (I have no idea who this is so it's nothing personal) has about 15 models entered that are over 10 years old and that have won before! And, I think other people knew this and didn't seem bothered by it. How can this be fair?

In fact, why would someone even want to show old work that has been in competitions before? I'm not talking 2 or 3 years, but the newest was about 8 years old! Were they even built by the competitor or did he just buy a collection? (There are reasons I suspect that and no need to go into them here.)

Is a 1st place plaque that important to a grown-up? At the end of the show, this dude had a stack of plaques about 3 feet high. No kidding. Mostly, they were 2nd and 3rd places from categories with only 1, 2 or 3 entries. What are you going to do with them!! Each one looks the same. Why not just say 'for display' only on models in categories with no other entries?

Finally, I really don't mean to sound too critical here. It's nice to compete and see other models but stuff like this is a real turn-off. There was no real critique of the work and no embracing of new techniques. You should have heard what I was hearing from the judges. How can an out of the box armor model, even an older kit with well-know errors left uncorrected, with no weathering and just some dry brushing win over a model that someone obviously spent lots of time on and really tried to push the boundaries of traditional kit building (and that looks 100% better to boot)?

There was very little to be inspired by. Most armor kits were OOB, little weathering, few bases and no figures. In fact, only one armor model had figures and it was mine. Not to be immodest, but it was very surprising.

I guess I just feel 'what's the point?' If I enter this again, I think I'll have my entry for display only. I want to contribute. Winning is nice but I don't care about an award (mine is somewhere in my bookshelf) and it's really hollow knowing the way the judging is.

I'd like to hear any comments. Hope I'm not being too critical.

Steve
AJLaFleche
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Member Since: May 05, 2002
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Posted: Monday, November 25, 2002 - 08:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

OK, my problems are these. This contest is planned well in advance; it's a yearly event. Why then would there be a call for qualified judges and assistants while the show is underway!? When they were getting ready to judge the entries, the organizers suddenly realized they didn't have enough judges (even though the number of models was about the same as the previous year). That seems strange to me.

So, they find some people to fill in as judges. Now the problems really start.


There are never enough volunteers in advance or on the day of the show, so this part's understandable.


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They get some of the young people with entries in the junior division to act as assistant judges. While it's fine to involve young people in a hobby, should they really be judging entries that adults have worked (maybe long and hard too) on? A senior judge tells them what to look for and then they go to it. And what the judge tells them to look for, in the armor categories, is ONE very particular thing!

Now, they also recruit an adult judge who has entries in the same division that he is judging!! Not the same exact category, but the same division. And, he tells the junior assistant judges what they 'should be looking for' before they judge his work while he is standing next to them! To me, this is nuts.



This should not have happened and I think it's more wrong than nuts and it leads to people feeling this was fixed. Really poor judgment on the part of the head judge. I was competing several years before I felt competent to judge.


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the contest room remained open during the judging. So, people are still messing with their entries while judging is going on!



Judges should ask people to step back while they are judging and the contestants should respect that.


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some guy (I have no idea who this is so it's nothing personal) has about 15 models entered that are over 10 years old and that have won before! And, I think other people knew this and didn't seem bothered by it. How can this be fair?

In fact, why would someone even want to show old work that has been in competitions before? I'm not talking 2 or 3 years, but the newest was about 8 years old! Were they even built by the competitor or did he just buy a collection? (There are reasons I suspect that and no need to go into them here.)



Fairness depends on the rules of the contest. I think every contest in New England has a rule that previous winners at THAT club's contests are not eligible for competiiton. Not to be picky, but if you didn't know him, how did you know the kits were old or from another person's collection?


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Is a 1st place plaque that important to a grown-up? At the end of the show, this dude had a stack of plaques about 3 feet high. No kidding. Mostly, they were 2nd and 3rd places from categories with only 1, 2 or 3 entries. What are you going to do with them!! Each one looks the same.



Sadly, to some people, any plaque is. I know a guy who was entering diecasts as his own work and asking the judges not to pick up the models (so they'd know they were metal and not plastic. He has entered pre-builts and pre-paints as his and may have bought a model at a museum and toured it as his. Believe me when I say, he has NO respect in the area.


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Why not just say 'for display' only on models in categories with no other entries?



If this guy was sandbagging as you indicate, there's not a whole lot that can be done about it other than adjusting the rules to reduce his likelihood of doing it again. If he was the third of three buiders in a class, he gets to take an award. The alternative is the club eats an award.


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Finally, I really don't mean to sound too critical here. It's nice to compete and see other models but stuff like this is a real turn-off.



Indeed it is.


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There was no real critique of the work and no embracing of new techniques.



Did you ask for critique from the other builders? Did anyone?


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How can an out of the box armor model, even an older kit with well-know errors left uncorrected, with no weathering and just some dry brushing win over a model that someone obviously spent lots of time on and really tried to push the boundaries of traditional kit building (and that looks 100% better to boot)?



Depending on the rulles the judges go by, if the builder did not correct errors but was technically more preoficient, assembly, painting, etc., he should get the nod over an attmpt to super detail that went awry. As far as looking better, in many cases, that really is a matter of personal taste.


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There was very little to be inspired by. Most armor kits were OOB, little weathering, few bases and no figures. In fact, only one armor model had figures and it was mine. Not to be immodest, but it was very surprising.


Strictly speaking, by IPMS and most local rules, bases and secondary figures are not judged unless the kit is in a diorama. My personal preference is to judge anyting attached to the model as part of the model, so that a commander figure that is poorly done will detract from a well done piece of armor as would a poorly painted Mk 82 hanging crookedly off an F-16.


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I guess I just feel 'what's the point?' If I enter this again, I think I'll have my entry for display only. I want to contribute. Winning is nice but I don't care about an award (mine is somewhere in my bookshelf) and it's really hollow knowing the way the judging is.



That's not a bad attitude.

Al

GunTruck
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Member Since: December 01, 2001
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Posted: Monday, November 25, 2002 - 08:52 AM UTC
Wow Steve - no real way to make this situation better. I'm beginning to suspect the concept of mixing "contest" and "modeling" isn't the best thing...


Quoted Text

This contest is planned well in advance; it's a yearly event. Why then would there be a call for qualified judges and assistants while the show is underway!? When they were getting ready to judge the entries, the organizers suddenly realized they didn't have enough judges (even though the number of models was about the same as the previous year). That seems strange to me.



It's pretty hard on a contest event planner to anticipate who's actually gonna show up on D-Day. Our RC out here has enacted a system where Judges are logged in a book that travels to all the local contests in the Region. After a certain number of contests judged, he intends to reward the Judge with a pin for his / her service. A nice thought. It's coming up on the first year soon - so whether or not it's been effective in getting more people to participate in contest administration will soon be clearer. With little incentive, and model building a more attractive thing, it's difficult to get and keep a steady stream going. Some locals are better than others - maybe yours isn't one of them.


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So, they find some people to fill in as judges. Now the problems really start.



Oh Boy - and How!!! (apologies to the Little Rascals)


Quoted Text

They get some of the young people with entries in the junior division to act as assistant judges. While it's fine to involve young people in a hobby, should they really be judging entries that adults have worked (maybe long and hard too) on? A senior judge tells them what to look for and then they go to it. And what the judge tells them to look for, in the armor categories, is ONE very particular thing!



I'm all for recruiting Apprentice Judges, and handled well, this is a great learning experience - for both involved. I learned a lot through Apprenticeship - both in what to do and what not to do. It's a hard situation when the Apprentices outnumber the Judges. The best situations I remember were when I tagged with a larger group of seasoned Judges, things tended not to get so subjective so quickly.


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Now, they also recruit an adult judge who has entries in the same division that he is judging!! Not the same exact category, but the same division. And, he tells the junior assistant judges what they 'should be looking for' before they judge his work while he is standing next to them! To me, this is nuts.



Bad situation - bad judging form.


Quoted Text

How do I know this, you wonder? Well, I was allowed to sit in on the general judging. Oh, not because I asked, but because the contest room remained open during the judging. So, people are still messing with their entries while judging is going on!



Ditto above. Open-Hall Judging creates all kinds of situations that could lead to integrity questions. Over the years, I've wondered how things would go if the Judges actually invited the modelers to go along with the Judging Team - but honor-bound to be deaf and dumb. Would erase some of the mystery perhaps - but open new cans of worms...


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Besides the judging there was one other thing that really seemed unfair. I had finished my entry the day before the contest (great timing) and built it with the contest in mind. I thought it would be nice to enter and hopefully get some feedback. My problem is that some guy (I have no idea who this is so it's nothing personal) has about 15 models entered that are over 10 years old and that have won before! And, I think other people knew this and didn't seem bothered by it. How can this be fair?



If there's no prohibition on "retreads" then he's free to exercise his freedom in returning "road warriors" back to the contest table. Most modelers frown on the "retread" and let their buddies know privately. Some contest administrators put this prohibition in the posted rules - so there's no heartache. It doesn't stop completely, but sure curbs it. But, if no one brings it up, as weak as it might appear, it isn't a modeler's fault for scraping them off the shelf again. "Retreads" leads one to think "trophy hunting" is the modeler's intent - and that's usually enough to dissuade the practice.


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In fact, why would someone even want to show old work that has been in competitions before? I'm not talking 2 or 3 years, but the newest was about 8 years old! Were they even built by the competitor or did he just buy a collection? (There are reasons I suspect that and no need to go into them here.)



Very bad form here if said modeler purchased someone else's work and entered it under the auspices of his own...


Quoted Text

Is a 1st place plaque that important to a grown-up? At the end of the show, this dude had a stack of plaques about 3 feet high. No kidding. Mostly, they were 2nd and 3rd places from categories with only 1, 2 or 3 entries. What are you going to do with them!! Each one looks the same. Why not just say 'for display' only on models in categories with no other entries?



A trophy or plaque shouldn't be that important - but - if you don't want to win - why enter a contest in the first place? I know people who will stare you in the eye and espouse all kinds of noble dissertations on comraderie and virtue of displaying models to encourage others to enter the hobby - and then spit HellFire when they don't get their "just deserts" in the award ceremony. Such hypocritical behavior makes me tired.

There are a lot of modelers who take pride in the award. There are a lot of modelers who describe such affirmations as "taking" an award. It's gotta be pretty important, huh? Makes you wonder if there were no contests - would there be a "scale modeling hobby" like we know today? Facetious question, I know, but interesting to consider...


Quoted Text

Finally, I really don't mean to sound too critical here. It's nice to compete and see other models but stuff like this is a real turn-off. There was no real critique of the work and no embracing of new techniques. You should have heard what I was hearing from the judges. How can an out of the box armor model, even an older kit with well-know errors left uncorrected, with no weathering and just some dry brushing win over a model that someone obviously spent lots of time on and really tried to push the boundaries of traditional kit building (and that looks 100% better to boot)?



I think many members of this Forum are their most interesting when they become critical and contentious . You're echoing the feeling of many modelers who frequent contests. Everyone keeps hoping that something will be a little different, change slightly, improve an iota. When it doesn't meet their expectation(s), most come back with the Contest Blues...


Quoted Text

There was very little to be inspired by. Most armor kits were OOB, little weathering, few bases and no figures. In fact, only one armor model had figures and it was mine. Not to be immodest, but it was very surprising. I guess I just feel 'what's the point?' If I enter this again, I think I'll have my entry for display only. I want to contribute. Winning is nice but I don't care about an award (mine is somewhere in my bookshelf) and it's really hollow knowing the way the judging is.



Steve, I'm like, and agree with, Sabot on his sentiments in his recent "disclaimer", but couldn't resist not answering your post . I really shouldn't respond to these kinds of threads...

I think you should get right back out there and enter another model, and another, and another. Keep building the way you do - the way you want to build them.

The winning really isn't important, and how the judging is conducted isn't important. You're gonna win some you really deserve - and you'll lose some you shouldn't have. If you choose to participate in contest modeling - that's Life. But, most importantly, you'll keep on pushing the envelope of medicroity out because you're there in the mix.

Gunnie
kkeefe
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Posted: Monday, November 25, 2002 - 09:46 AM UTC
I haven't competed in years... just got tired of all the 'politics' I guess. I have accumulated my fair share of trophys and plaques etc... enough to last a lifetime, but perhaps I just figured that it's time to let someone else in. Not really sure what happened, but maybe thinking about the judging with every move that I made to a kit as a constant 'threat' to where it became more of a 'job' than a hobby.

Burnt out? Maybe. (but still smokin')

When I do go to a show and I do bring a build along, it just goes in for "Display Only". I will judge if asked, but I prefer not to. I have judged at many shows.

I haven't gone to many shows over the past four (?) years, and I haven't been an active club member for approximately the same amount of time.

This has contributed to a very slowed down build rate for me, but what I do build, I build for me only. Not worrying about what others may think anymore, and I think that I've gotten better at it too. Certainly enjoying it much more.

Normally, I don't get into these types of discussions either. The important thing here is to be happy with YOUR hobby. Display your world as you see fit. Expect to take some punches if you compete, roll with those punches, learn from those punches.

Thanks,
Kevin Keefe
Mortars in Miniature
KFMagee
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Posted: Monday, November 25, 2002 - 03:29 PM UTC
I have only entered a few contests, and while I win some, I also have failed to even place in some contests - and I build professionally! That's ok - there is a LOT of stuff out there that I feel is superior to mine... The key is "can I learn from others, and can they learn from me". This is not about winning and losing... if it were, I'd only work on one collosal "category killer" per year, and then would milk that sucker in every contest found. I don't typically enter any project in more than a single contest... I always bring new things, unless I have been asked by a sponsor or exhibitor to bring in a past favorite. This is a hobby about FUN and SHARING... if it is only about the trophies, I could save a lot of money just buying trophy's online and awarding them to myself... I do it for the expreience and the pleasure. If I win, then that's great - someone enjoyed my work... if I don't win, then at least *I* enjoyed my work!
sniper
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Posted: Monday, December 02, 2002 - 07:57 AM UTC

Thanks for the responses. I guess I was really put-off by the LACK of fun this contest had.

Grown-ups running around with pen-lights and being more worried about 'what the other guy built' than sharing what is usually a solitary hobby was a bit much for me I guess.

I think that the organizers would be smart to have a Q&A session or a demo or a panel discussion to help make the event more interactive. Unfortunately, lots of people seem unwilling to give away modelling 'secrets.'

Actually, I had the opportunity to speak with a rather well-known modeller at the show; someone you guys would probably have heard of. He was happy to give advice and talk about new projects and even give some pretty sharp opinions on the contest and the entries. Other than that, oh well.


I'm sure not all events are not like this one. I'd rather be inspired by the work I see on the web and try to emulate those people who are moving forward with the hobby, not stuck in the mud!

Steve
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