I am the biggest fan of the F-105 Thunderchief otherwise known as the Thud.I have recently come onto contact with a man who was a very good buddy of a Thud pilot KIA over the skies of North Vietnam and have learned alot more than I thought I knew since then.I have read every book I can get my hands on about the different accounts of flying Thuds in Vietnam and it breaks my heart to know that because of the LBJ administration these guys died over stuff that could have been destroyed for good in a matter of minutes than years.
So my question for you guys is what is your opinon over what happened in the air war of Vietnam?
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Thuds over Hanoi
Whiskey
Member Since: May 30, 2002
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Posted: Friday, November 01, 2002 - 11:22 AM UTC
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
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Posted: Friday, November 01, 2002 - 01:10 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I am the biggest fan of the F-105 Thunderchief otherwise known as the Thud.I have recently come onto contact with a man who was a very good buddy of a Thud pilot KIA over the skies of North Vietnam and have learned alot more than I thought I knew since then.I have read every book I can get my hands on about the different accounts of flying Thuds in Vietnam and it breaks my heart to know that because of the LBJ administration these guys died over stuff that could have been destroyed for good in a matter of minutes than years.
So my question for you guys is what is your opinon over what happened in the air war of Vietnam?
Zach--that is a tough question. So let me approach it this way. In our form of government, civilian responsibility extends over the military. The president and his advisers have, therefore, the Constitutional right to tell the military what to do. Having said that, the Constitutional power implies that the civilian leadership works with the military in pursuit of victory. In Vietnam, LBJ was haunted by several ghosts and misperceptions. He did not want the Chinese to come into the war as they did during Korea. He wanted to gain his political ends and be better known for social reforms than FDR. He did not trust the military leadership. And lastly, he thought the North Vietnamese would act the same as the mayor of a small town within the US. By that, I mean he believed that he could bribe them into doing what he wanted. This took the form of promising to rebuild the North after the bombing. Now, when he directed the military to bomb the North, he did so by tieing one hand behind their backs. He forbade attacks close to the Chinese border. He believed that by not bombing Hanoi and Haiphong, Ho Chi Minh (like the small town mayor) would see American power and reject pursuing the war in order to preserve the North. Wow! Despite people telling McNamara and LBJ the folly of their ways, their personal dislike of the military clouded their judgement. So, they picked targets out and approved target list. The end result was that preplanned attacks often hit nothing. They had been moved! Now, I am the last to blast solely LBJ and his useless Secretary of Defense, the Air Force and the Navy did not do themselves any favors by their tactics which I hope your Buddy will tell you were faulty. I can envision getting into the same type situation had we gone to war under the previous administration. Thank God we did not.
DJ
Whiskey
Member Since: May 30, 2002
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Posted: Friday, November 01, 2002 - 05:19 PM UTC
Trust me I know all this.Macnamara had the nerve to tell the North Vietnamese that we were going to bomb one of the eight SAM sights in North Vietnam in 1965 and what happened?The NVA moved the SAMs,replaced them with painted telphone poles and put almost every triple A guns in that EXACT spot.I believe it was two or three Thuds were lost out of 65 on a mission to blow up telephone poles.The sad truth about it was that Washington had Intelligence photos of the SAMs being moved but held back that information because they didnt want to look like cowards after they had been advertising this strike for a week.
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
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Posted: Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 02:25 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Trust me I know all this.Macnamara had the nerve to tell the North Vietnamese that we were going to bomb one of the eight SAM sights in North Vietnam in 1965 and what happened?The NVA moved the SAMs,replaced them with painted telphone poles and put almost every triple A guns in that EXACT spot.I believe it was two or three Thuds were lost out of 65 on a mission to blow up telephone poles.The sad truth about it was that Washington had Intelligence photos of the SAMs being moved but held back that information because they didnt want to look like cowards after they had been advertising this strike for a week.
Zach--if you ever want to read two very objective books about the Vietnam War and its aftermath, may I highly recommend BG Burkett's "Stolen Valor" and McMasters' "Dereliction of Duty." The McMasters' book points out quite a few shortfalls in the performance of the chiefs of staff of the miltary and their interaction with LBJ. Really insightful. However, once I put it down my one thought was what would anyone else have done? They are appointed by the President and answerable to him. By way of contrast. Does anyone really think that during the Monica Affair, the US fired cruise missiles against a chemical warfare plant in the Sudan or anything more that a couple of tents in Afghanistan? Why? To cover some con artist masquerading as a leader? The Thuds tragedy aside, the issue of balancing responsiveness to the National Command Authority and loyalty to ones integrity is the key question that emerges from Vietnam. It still haunts the halls of the Pentagon today.
DJ
Whiskey
Member Since: May 30, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 05:12 PM UTC
Good point.Ill check out those books you suggested.A very good book for anyone else out there is one by Jack Broughton:Going Downtown.By far one of the best books by a Thud pilot detailing the political background of almost all the missions flown by him.Also a very interesting story about two pilots under his command that shot a Soviet ship in the Cam Pha harbor and the grueling court martial that followed that practically ended his career.
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
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Posted: Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 01:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Good point.Ill check out those books you suggested.A very good book for anyone else out there is one by Jack Broughton:Going Downtown.By far one of the best books by a Thud pilot detailing the political background of almost all the missions flown by him.Also a very interesting story about two pilots under his command that shot a Soviet ship in the Cam Pha harbor and the grueling court martial that followed that practically ended his career.
What was the result of the courts-martial? Never heard of that one.
Whiskey
Member Since: May 30, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 08:27 AM UTC
The two pilots that fired on the ship:Lonnie Ferguson and Ted Tolman were found innocent of all charges and were put back on active duty immeditaly after the hearings.Broughton on the other hand was found innocent of the first two charges but guilty on the second two.I dont remember what the charges were but the reason why Broughton was court martialed was because when the Thud pilots landed after the incident Broughton took the gun camera footage out and destroyed it and gave a false report to the CO.Anyway Brougton was fined $100 every month for six months and returned to active duty.
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,551 Posts
Posted: Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 01:17 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The two pilots that fired on the ship:Lonnie Ferguson and Ted Tolman were found innocent of all charges and were put back on active duty immeditaly after the hearings.Broughton on the other hand was found innocent of the first two charges but guilty on the second two.I dont remember what the charges were but the reason why Broughton was court martialed was because when the Thud pilots landed after the incident Broughton took the gun camera footage out and destroyed it and gave a false report to the CO.Anyway Brougton was fined $100 every month for six months and returned to active duty.
Zach--interesting footnote to history. Theoretically, LTG Lavelle conducted a "secret" air war on the North from Thailand. He was demoted and relieved of duty. I often wonder how secret those action were to the administration.
DJ
Ranger74
Member Since: April 04, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 02:44 PM UTC
Zach -
The Thuds were great fighter bombers - there is one inside the Air Force Firepower Museum at Eglin AFB, Florida - forgot how BIG those birds were. At least the F-105s, F-4s, A-6s, etc., had a chance to dodge the SA-1 and SA-2 flying telephone poles. There was a string of B-52 downings during one of Richard Nixon's "Rolling Thunder" campaigns - he too was not adverse to setting unrealistic Rules of Engagement. The BUFF crews had to approach targets along the same flight routes at same speed and altitude, day after day. Now the North Vietnamese were far fron stupid - they quickly caught on and were bagging several B-52s every mission!!!! A B-52 has a lot harder time dogging a missle they can hardly see, being that they flying higher and that there visibility is not as good as the fighter bombers. It caused a major scandal in the US press.
The Thuds were great fighter bombers - there is one inside the Air Force Firepower Museum at Eglin AFB, Florida - forgot how BIG those birds were. At least the F-105s, F-4s, A-6s, etc., had a chance to dodge the SA-1 and SA-2 flying telephone poles. There was a string of B-52 downings during one of Richard Nixon's "Rolling Thunder" campaigns - he too was not adverse to setting unrealistic Rules of Engagement. The BUFF crews had to approach targets along the same flight routes at same speed and altitude, day after day. Now the North Vietnamese were far fron stupid - they quickly caught on and were bagging several B-52s every mission!!!! A B-52 has a lot harder time dogging a missle they can hardly see, being that they flying higher and that there visibility is not as good as the fighter bombers. It caused a major scandal in the US press.
Whiskey
Member Since: May 30, 2002
entire network: 1,038 Posts
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Posted: Friday, November 29, 2002 - 03:49 AM UTC
Same thing happened with the fighter jocks.The NVA could tell almost exactly when they were coming if the weather was good enough to fly in before the planes even took off ffrom the airfields.I dunno man,maybe LBJ and McNamara we're smoking drugs to make them think this stuff up.
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