Was just wondering, when a judge or judges are walking around judging peoples entries as to where they may place. I have noticed they dont give a reason as to why a model did not make the grade.

Why not just say what could have hampered them to not judge or as to what could have been improved on. Now, im not saying write me a book or something. Just an idea as to where to improve.

Now I dont want to hear, " Well, someone's feeling's may get hurt or someone may get angry." Heck, we as a group are CONSTANTLY walking around and wondering how such and such got that type of effect on whatever we are marveling at the moment. Asking how did you do this and that so we can improve as a whole and pass the knowledge on to future modelers.

Am I wrong to ask ?????????????????????

I do agree with you, although I've never been to a modeling contest, If my entry was being snubbed by the judges for what ever reason I would like to know for future reference. Can you not look at the score card (or what ever is on their clip boards) for your model to see where improvements need to be made?

found this recent post which may be of interest to you...

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/58201&page=1

Rudi

We tried that once at one of our shows years ago, in the land of real teeth and 20/20 vision, and it created more problems, and several arguments, so we never did it again. That was when our show ran Friday, and Saturday. The next year we tried to do it after the show, but before the banquet, well, that wasn't too successful either. A few of the judges volunteered to stay late, miss the hospitality hour and set up a table to look over the pieces, the end result was a lot of name calling, and accusations, and hurt feelings. Needless to say we never tried it again. :-)

I've been judging at the local level for over 20 years, at the reginal level for 15 with at least 1 (second coming up next spring) head judge assignment and once (of two) at the national level. I've been under IPMS rules, AMPS rules and independent rules.
AMPS provides comment sheets and judges in a different manner, each model being evaluated by a team in a separate room.
Most other shows gather as many judges as possible, never enough, form the sponsoring club and volumteers from the attendees.
To be honest, there just isn't enough time to provide comments on all the non 1st place models. In some cases, that model may be significantly flawed itself, but less so than the rest of the class.
Sometimes, the 4th place model is really good and has no major flaws but 1-2-3 had just that much more work put into it and done well.
The best way to find out what judges look for is to help in judging. You won't be tossed in the fray alone, you'll have some experienced people with you. You won't be put in a position of judging your own model.
To second what Dave (Grumpy) said above, I have answered the "Why didn't I win?" question on a few occasions and did so quite tactfully and sensitively. On at least one occasion, the builder simply didn't want to hear his semi scratchbuilt, cobbled together, what if, they-could-have, chrome tipped exhaust German something or another was not up to the quality of the rest of the class. He would not hear any critique and just wanted to be angry at not winning.

Thanks for the replies guys, I guess their are some people, like myself, who would not mind the critique, without, how does one improve ???

I guess for some people, who have put in hours upon hours upon nights of endless yapping from the wife. And feeling very proud of what you did only to be told this or that could have been done better, I can see where the truth hurts. Heck, I wondered that myself how I put 2 months into a tank only to lose out to an out of the box.

But I took it for what it was, didnt like it, but I saw where I could have done better once I thought about it and asked what was wrong, not that I liked that either, but I could not let my emotions rule common sense.

Maybe it comes down to, if you REALLY want to grow and take the "BEATDOWN", then ask. If you dont want to hear the music, just pickup your model and move on.

By the way, I still like my 1/72 tiran-6 (t-55) better than the other guys box. hehe. But I "grew" because of it.

Above, I said I've been judging for 20+ years, but I've been competing for at least 25. In those classes where I was/am competing, I've tried to befriend my competition and learn from them.
It takes time to succeed.
My first really successful model was a 1/72 ESCI Sherman M4A1to which I added about a hundred pieces of paper, wire and plastic to get a very detailed model. I did this in 1982. It took 3-4 firsts, before beig retired in 1991.
Other kits have taken multiple awards as well. It seems the ones I've enjoyed the most building/painting are the ones that have done the best. It's a zen thing, I think. Becoming one with the model/figure.
If you have a club nearby, join it. The mentoring this will give you is akin to the apprenticeship system of a much earlier time, where you apprenticed before becoming a journeman ans finally a master in an art or skill.

We modelers are a sensitive lot, we ask for an honest answer, then get hurt when we get it. The majority of us have all gone through it.
I remember years ago..... OK, many years ago, Shep Paine looked at one of my pieces and asked how I did something, so I told him...... his answer was on the order of, "OH, I thought you used a mop"...... :-)
Needless to say, my "wittle" heart was broken...... but the next year we spent several hours talking over a few drinks at the hospitality hour, on how to improve..... and also about my dress code..... he hated my "undignified" jacket...... (we use to were jacket and ties to shows back then)
When he wrote his book on Dioramas, he made sure I got an autographed copy....... :-)
In returned I bought a blue blazer...... he never mentioned my "undignified" jacket again....... Undignified behavior a few times, but not the blazer..... :-) :-)

I also think there is another side to this, where you have a lot of very well built models, the judges are then looking for what is wrong with a model rather than what is right.

One of the reasons i stopped judging, i didnt feel right having to pull apart some one elses work, i would much rather have spent the time with the builder disscussing there work, where possible imporvments could be made different techniques etc

keith forsyth

That's one of the reason, Keith, myself and many others others have always felt the "open" judging system is the fairest, against the "category, 1st, 2nd, 3rd" system. With the open, you really spend more time looking at and for "what's right" rather than "what's wrong."

I'm with you, Dave. I'm one of several who were arguing for this at the 04 Nats in Phoenix and periodically over the last year and a half on the IPMS forum. The status quo, however, is firmly entrenched and can't see anything beyond 1-2-3.
This system often rewards mediocre or worse models with awards when they have been enterred in categories with few other entries.

Exactly Al, 3 below average models, win 1st, 2nd, 3rd, simply because they were in the "3 engine, one wing, open cockpit, with wicker seats- pre-1935, but no earlier than 1933 German seaplanes category", meanwhile a totally outstanding model in a large category, gets nothing because they limit their thinking and awards to 1-2-3 only, so that 4th that would probably also get a gold in an open contest, gets nothing.
With the open, if it's got the points for a Gold, it got a Gold.... doesn't matter how many gold, if it's got the points for a silver, it's got a silver, and if it's got the points for a bronze, it's got a bronze.

My take on shows and judging is that I don't feel like my kits are any better than any other kit entered. I don't expect to win anything and won't be disappointed if I do not win an award.

I don't enter the show to win awards, I enter the show because if no one entered any kits in the show, then there would be no show.

I've won at least one award at all the shows I've entered so far. Nothing major, just a small plaque or two here or there. Not every kit I've entered has placed.

That does not bother me in the least bit. I just assume there were at least three better built kits in the category I entered.

I've won awards in categories that were full of entries and I've also benefited from winning third place out of three entries. No shame or glory in either case.

Most folks just need to remember that this is supposed to be a hobby, something fun to do while you pass the time.

Just had our state show -controversy, debate and missed opportunity -but I did something else- I just exhibited oly -just showed others what I was doing (the very same pieces I have been showing in the last 4 mths here on the big 'A'
The Problem -no real category for my 'art' how can I compete with a wooden model of the Bounty with a detailed dio of three dwarves- People see big or some othe idea and miss some other work I have judged myself and in some categories it is hard because it tries to cover 2 many things also the rules can be silly or down right exclusive - I could not put a scatch built figure in the painted figure area or someone elses scratch built that I painted cause it ain't 100% my work- have had a few words and as we have all said this is enjoyment I don't want to argue with someone who is just like me and likes models just like me - hey I ruin his day as well
I agree an open comp with gold silver bronze is how standards are improved and also set
Ian

I ask people who's work I admire how I can improve my stuff. I usually do not bother judges at a show (I also have helped judge). This way there usually is no stress involved for either party.
capnjock