“Recently a fellow modeler who just started in our hobby was quite surprise on the removal of the Nazi swastika from aircraft and armor box art. He was even more surprised when I told him that it was illegal in Germany.

Many modelers have had similar discussions on this same issue and we are all wondering when this will change and would it reappear on box illustrations.
What are your thoughts? Track55”

I believe it will probably change sometime after all who had suffered at the hands of Nazi Germany eventually pass on.

The world is now more international and there are laws that prevent the showing of the swastika in several European countries. Because of this, it is more cost effective to produce only one box art without the markings so it can be sold in every country.

There are enough aftermarket decals and piece together swastikas included with kits to make the problem rather minor to the serious modeler. Casual modelers might not care one way or the other.

Good Post.
Symbols are VERY powerful things. The swastica itself is a very old and powerful rune and, unfortunately, the meaning was perverted by the Nazi party. Hopefully, a day will come when the swastica won't remind people of the horrors and wrongs that have occured on this planet.

Someday,
Murphy

Isn't there also a movement in some model shows or contests to restrict models that have swastikas on them to being displayed behind curtains or something?

I have really mixed feelings on this. I despise what the swastika stood for in Nazi Germany, but I don't like trying to sanitize history. The swastika was on those aircraft, ships, tanks, arm bands, etc. You can't make that change.

I believe it should stay.
Its not that I believe in what the nazis made the swastika stand for or anything like that.
Its just that it’s a part of history. Replicas of German units from that time should display it to preserve history.

As Rodger said the fact is that its part of history.


But I did just think of something. In countries its illegal in what do museums do? Can they display anything with a swastika on it?

I only know of France and Germany that have the ban. I suppose there is a huge gap in their history lessons

Well I'll jump in on this one again as we continue to beat another dead horse...

I have several models in my living room in my display case.. a few are german subjects.. 1 is an aircraft the the swastika on the tail.

Once when asked doesn't it bother you to display a Nazi flag or emblem in your home I answered with what I beleive and I think it is a good veiwpoint and i'll share it..

The Models I build are historcial replica's depicting a time in history and should be shown as they were.

The swastika is a symbol of that time. and in its time it was a very powerful symbol in one form or another to most of the world.

To me the swastika as a symbol is meaningless in any other context other than a historical reference and therefore has no power over me.


end of standard swastika rant............



so personally I think a ban on them in model building contests would be the start of encouraging historical inaccuracy and giving those who want people to forget what happened back then a helping hand.. for those who forget history repeat it....

Some of the so-called works of art hanging in museums and public buildings are really offensive. But this is tolerated so as not to infringe on the artist's right to free expression. Therefore, modelers should not be curtailed in their efforts to realistically depict historical facts. like Murphy says, the swaztika symbol has appeared in many cultures, including Native American. Unfortunately, the wrong people decided to use it. Sincerely meaning no offense, but the same Rising Sun that flew over so many occupied countries is still in use today without any negative connotations. Go figure.

Art

Your friend is lucky that the symbol was only removed from the boxart. When I worked in a model shop we once took over a party of kits from an other modelstore who stopped their business. There were several kits where the symbol on the boxart was blackened with a marker. So far no harm I guess. Some old German distributed Revell kits have that to sometimes when the boxart isn't 'censured' by Revell allready.
But when I opened the boxes to make clear everything was there I saw all the symbols were CUT OUT on the decalsheet! And not even clean but very rhoughly so other decals where damaged to. (the guy who did that must have thought that you should not buy those german models anyhow).
And it did not stay with german models. Same thing happend to the naked 'babes' on models of American bombers...

But it can get worser:
My former boss told me his shopwindow was once thrown in with a brick because there was a little swastika on one of the models displayed...

I agree with the others; it will be a mather of time. The question is how long? Can we get back on this in 2075?

Paul

I believe you're thinking of IPMS/USA "Rule 5" quoted below. This does not apply to the swastika. Though it could be interpreted that way by some. It has never been applied that way that I'm aware of.

5. The Chief Judge will exclude or remove from competition any entry considered by Contest officials to be inappropriate or offensive to generally acknowledged standards of taste and acceptability.


The following are prohibited in competition and may not be placed on display at any IPMS event:


There shall be no depiction of excretory functions depicting any human being or animal.


There shall be no depiction of sado-masochistic activity, equipment, settings, or situations, to any degree, regardless of whether there are figures in the model and regardless of whether any figures present in the model are clothed.


There shall be no depictions of explicit sexual conduct, bilateral or autoerotic, regardless of degree and regardless of the clothing status of the participants, that involves the touching of the breasts or genitals or other erogenous zones of any depicted figure.


There shall be no depiction of any nude human male or female figures where the genitalia of the figure are exposed, where the clear intent of the same is to portray a sexual scene.


The following may be entered in the competition or put on display but can be presented only behind opaque screens or similar visual barriers and only where visitors are provided with a fair description, in written format, of the contents of the models behind the screen. This screened presentation covers competitors and the general public, but no person younger than 18 will be admitted except in the presence of an adult responsible for the young person, subject to the provisions of governing local law:


Depictions of any nude human male or female figure, subject to the “screening system” described above.


Models or dioramas of historic events (e.g., general dioramas or specific depictions of the result of the activities of the communist Cambodian Pol Pot regime, a Soviet Gulag, or a Nazi death camp) where the suffering of human beings, or the result of a pogrom, is depicted. Where the theme, content, or subject matter of presentations is graphic or would violate any provision of part A of this policy, the presentation is prohibited in any setting.

Well, a rule in the German Model Masters Competition (with price money over 10.000 euro's in total) is:
"Gewaltverherrlichende oder mit NS-Emblemen versehene Modelle werden nicht zugelassen".
Translation:
"Violence honouring models or models with NS (national socialism) symbols applied are not allowed"

Mostly this means that a little bit of blue tack is placed over the symbols :-)

Paul

I have to agree with Sabot on his ersponse. It ain't a problem to get aftermarket decals to meet your needs.


I hope to God this NEVER occurs. The world should never forget what happened. I know this is not what you meant, but too many groups of folks still use the emblem as a symbol of hate and that is what you are referring to.

I totally agree. That's why I'm not in favor of removing it from the boxes. It is history, and should be there, in all it's ugly glory.

I've got to say this though, I feel that it is being over used. Kind of like how some people over use blood on models. If a plane or ship had the swastika on it, fine, show it. If you're modeling a particular tank from a photo, and the photo has the swastika on some air recognition panel, by all means show it. I just feel that some people use it because it gives a splash of color, or because it looks "cool."

Personally I am baffled by people feeling threatened by a tiny symbol on a model of a historical machine. My Grand Father (and I know I am not alone there in losing a family member to WW2) )died in Italy during the war and I don't think I am doing his memory any dis-service by building models of German subjects.

I think the context in which the symbol is used is what is important. This is just another case of a poorly thought out law impacting a group of people I am sure it was never intended to in the first place. We don't ban other symbols related to WW2 or other wars as far as I know. I understand the sensitivity of the people in Germany but I think there needs to be some perspective on this.

Models should be build and displayed as they were not altered to suit someones view of the past. Same thing goes for history books if it happened it should be in the books. I have avoided buying models just because I didn't want to bother sourcing new decals (admittedly this is lazy).

Just my opinion and if I offend anyone sorry.

I don't see a big deal with it. I know some people could have more emotional response based on personal experience, but I don't think they should be catered to.

In Missouri there's been similar discussions about the Confederate flag. When Representative Dick Gephardt (D) was running for President he made a comment that the Confederate flag shouldn't be displayed anywhere. A reporter found out that one was displayed in Missouri at a state cemetery of veteran Confederate soldiers. The governor (D) at the time, ordered the flag down so Gephardt could save some face, but the new governor (R) has ordered it back up.

Hi all,
I am not defending the Nazis in any way, but I think that many forget that other countries have their own onerous past. The Soviet Union for instance, they killed more people than Hitler could have dreamed of. People still build T-34's or make commie soldiers for dioramas. The Chicoms, trying to come into the modern age with our stolen technology, murdered many millions under Mao's bloody regime. And they want to take the Republic of China's freedom away. In my opinion, they should ban the hammer and sickle or the Chicom red five-star flag also, or maybe the Turkish moon and star for killing 2 million Christian Armenians. Well, as I said, we could ban a lot of things, and we could go around in circles about who committed the worst atrocities. Shoot, even we Americans have committed our own share of them(Native Americans, POW's, etc.), but they do not even get a mention because we have won wars. The victors write the histories, I guess. But I digress, this is just a reminder that the Nazis are not the only mass murderers in the last couple of centuries, or they weren't even the bloodiest. I also realize that most modelers know what I am talking about. But, then again there are some who will blame only the Nazis for all the ills of WW2. Well, they weren't.
Sorry for the rant, but I hate revisionism in any form. I am an American, and proud of it. But I will never excuse the Allied mistakes and stupidity.
IPMS can make all the rules it wants, but I do not agree with them.
France and Germany need to grow up and learn how to forgive themselves.
Russia and China are really the ones who need to hang their heads in shame.

Chris- Let the Skewering Begin!

And Yes, I know someone will be angry with me for this posting!

The symbol does indeed invoke powerful thoughts with many people. This is still a symbol used throughout asia in the buddist religion, but it faces to the left. The biggest thing for everyone who wants to question our intentions when creating replicas is this is a part of history. Do folks get crazy when they watch the Red Coats marching during a reenactment? Let's drop the politically correct nonsense and tell the 1%ers to calmn down and enjoy the craftsmanship that went into the model or whatever they are observing. Otherwise, in our country full of freedoms, they are FREE to leave.

"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death, your right to say it."

I dont mean to burst your guy's bubble, but you have to look at it from Germany and France's point of view. I dont have a story about model censorship but my German teacher told me that she was forced to lose her german accent by her school teacher here when she move to the U.S. It was a dark time for everyone and nobody wants to remember it. So let them keep their censorship of the swatstika and we can record history.
==)

This topic really does intrigue me.
I lived in Germany for 12 years and had a subscription to Military Modeller. I stopped receiving my magazines because they frequently had swastikas on the front covers. The Germans just would not let them through.
I hate what the swastika did and still does represent. ...It is still an historical symbol that appeared on on of the German vehicles,planes and ships during the war.
It seems to me that Model manufacturers are trying to revise history. I don't see the hammer and sickle
removed from any box art...and Stalin was one of the biggest butchers on the planet. He caused almost as much death and suffering amongst his own people as Hitler did.
I don't see the French Tricolor, the Japanese Rising Sun or the Conferderate Stars and Bars removed from any box art. Napoleon was a tyrant and a warmonger in his day and was reviled by many. The Imperial Japanese Army committed atrocities and enslaved many people. The confederate flag represented the most
vile form of tyranny, slavery, IN IT'S DAY! Now people fly those flags outside their homes and don't give it a second thought.
I am by no means advocating flying the Nazi flag from public buildings...Let's just use some common sense, though...someone who wants to build an historically correct model is not advocating a second Holocaust.
Sabot is right...if the manufacturer doesn't supply the correct decals with the kit ....there are always the aftermarket people.
Case in point..today I bought the Hasegawa / Bego Afrika Korps Kuebelwagen it had the palm tree decals included..... without the swastika. I was a little upset until I pulled out the instructions and a perfectly good pair of correct Afrika Palm decals fell out.
"Nuff Said!
Bodeen

After living in Germany for a couple years, i have formed two very strong opinions about this subject:

1. it is time to forgive the german people for wwII, hitler, the holocost, etc.. And it is time for the germans to give up some of their national guilt as well. they are good people and a long time has passed. we should never forget, but it is past time to stop constantly reminding them. i get really sick of people making nazi-istic references to modern germans.

2. the laws that ban the swastica in germany only give the negative historical aspects of the symbol extra power. neo-nazis LOVE the fact that they are committing a crime against the democratic german state when they spray paint a swastica on something. in my opinion, making it illegal only inconveniences the innocent (like historical modelers) and empowers the fascist wanna-bes. it is a totally self-defeating law that actually encourages the proliferation of the hateful use of the symbol. plus, i think it is also hypocritical in a democratic society to use a fascist tactic (banning what effectively a political symbol ) in order to discourage pro-fascist activity.

just my opinions, -v-

A volatile, heated subject for sure.

As mentioned, the swastika has been a cultural rune for years, especially in Native American culture (I was born and raised on an Indian reservation in upstate NY). The US 45th Infantry Division's patch was a swastika prior to the start of WW2.

At one point in time, it wasn't a bad symbol. In fact, in Native American culture, it symbolizes the essence of life itself, each of the geometric arms represents a person's journey though life and the paths they can take.

Do I find the swastika offensive? Personally, no. Nor do I find the Confederate flag offensive. If I should find anything offensive, it should be the stars and bars, after all, it was the Union Army that killed off most of my ancestors in the late 1800s. But I'm about as proud an American as you can find. I'll cry when I hear a good rendition of the national anthem, or Taps. I don't find the Confederacy offensive, nor the Civil War. At the same time, I don't find the German military offensive. That being said, I abhor what the Confederacy and Nazi regime stood for, slavery and the extermination of a culture. But you cannot blame an entire country for the actions of a few.

I can understand why people find those things, though. I think most of us (modelers) don't because we're students of history, and we understand the history behind the symbols and events. I don't think anyone (other than the inevitable sickos who pervade our society) build models of German equipment with the intent to glamourize National Socialism. I think it's because the Germans were leading the technology race (with the exception of nuclear) right up until 1945, and they made some cool looking-stuff with neat camo schemes.

I don't think the swastika will ever be legalized in Germany. It's a dark period in that country's history, and I still think there's a lot of "coming to terms" that the German people need deal with.

But every country has its share of skeletons in the closet. No one nation is free from atrocity. It may have happened 100 years ago, it may have happened 100 days ago. It's happened here in the US, too, and we're not without guilt. Well, I am, after all, because my ancestors were on the receiving end. But that hasn't effected me directly, and I'm not blaming the government because I don't have a new Corvette and a house on the hill, or because I was denied an opportunity. I'm not the type to feel that the government owes me something because of events that happened 150 years ago. I'm sure that maybe my great-great-great-great-grandfather had a legitimate complaint, but I don't feel I do.

Jeff