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Military history and past events only. Rants or inflamitory comments will be removed.
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why no marines in ETO?
exarmydoc
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Posted: Monday, September 19, 2011 - 06:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think the main reason is really an organisational one. USMC units were organised along the lines of combined arms battle groups where as the US Army units were designed to operate within a larger Corps framework.

The nature of the Pacific island hopping mean that each engagement needed a combined arms task group rather than an entire corps/army/army group like in the ETO. The smaller self contained units of the USMC were well suited to these operations.

As the Pacific Campaign operations grew in size more and more US Army units were involved such as Leyte and Okinawa. In many cases the Army units formed the follow on reserve to exploit the UMSC lodgement and establishment of the beachhead, as in Siapan the landed 2 days after the USMC, Peleliu about a week and on Guam they landed on the same day, in the afternoon but as they were not equipped as well as the Marines for amphibious assault they did have some difficulties ties before gaining a foothold, perhaps reinforcing the notion that the specialists should go first.

Once ashore of course the Army and Marine units generally advanced side by side, as on Guam where a complex pivot was carried out to roll up the island from South to North.

As much as we might like to think it was another conspiracy theory or turf war I think you'll find that, as in all things, it was simply a logical employment of a specialist force.

Why no Amtracs? Initially the Amtrac was not conceived as an assault craft, it was for ship to shore supplies, so that heavy stuff could get across the beach and into the hinterland.

Amtracs were very slow (6knts), very small (24 troops max) and very un-armoured. They were great for being able to drive over a reef and continue to the beach as they did at Tarawa but they were then shot to bits as they crawled along and had no armour. The Higgins boat were much larger and could carry a full platoon, could make 12knts and were armoured so were far better when there was no reef.

Later the Amtrac did get amour and were used in a number of operations in the ETO, Scheldt, Rhine and in Italy.



If one studies the ETO, most of the operations were combined arms operations involving leg infantry, mechanized infantry, armor and air support. Combined arms warfare was not the forte of the Marine Corps which was basically an amphibious force, and, I add, the best amphibious force in the world. They were primarily infantry, however.
melonhead
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Posted: Monday, September 19, 2011 - 07:54 AM UTC
but, the Marine Corps did have combined arms during ww2. Obviously, they are primarily amphibious, but they did have carrier based and ground based aircraft. mostly carrier based for obvious reasons until the island was taken over. the Hellcats were mostly air to air, but had the capability to attach a single bomb. i believe they were able to carry a 500lb. But, they also had tanks ashore .
Obviously due to the type of campaigns they had and the terrain, they had to be more foot mobile. but, they did have the combined arms capability.
Magpie
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Posted: Monday, September 19, 2011 - 09:51 PM UTC
Looking beyond any arbitrary hyperbola about who is or isn't the "best in the world" at a particular thing, if you read what I actually wrote you will see I am talking not about Combined Arms Operations, but Combined Arms Battlegroups.

The USMC had larger numbers of support weapons and specialists deployed at lower levels than in Army units. MG's, Flamethrowers, Demo Charges, tanks, mortars, NGS teams, ALO's etc were all deployed at battalion level in numbers that were quite different to Europe.

A Marine Division expected to be deployed to an assault and to remain in battle until the conclusion of that assault and was organised and equipped to that end. In the ETO a unit could expect to be in front line operation at a lower tempo but considerably longer period of time and was configured differently.
Spades
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Posted: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 06:11 AM UTC
Im probably going to get flamed on this one. But looking at the statistics, not only did the army already have enough experience on amphibious landings. But they also conducted more amphibious landings than the marines in the PTO. Although not as well known as the Marine engagements, they did do them as part of Gen. MacArthurs force.

(time to go and get some cover, I hear INCOMING any moment...........)
Magpie
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Posted: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 11:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Im probably going to get flamed on this one. But looking at the statistics, not only did the army already have enough experience on amphibious landings. But they also conducted more amphibious landings than the marines in the PTO. Although not as well known as the Marine engagements, they did do them as part of Gen. MacArthurs force.

(time to go and get some cover, I hear INCOMING any moment...........)



If you are talking Amphibious Landings yes you are correct, in fact Australia carried out many such operations too as did the Japanese.

Amphibious Assault however is a different kettle of fish. The landing in the Philippines were largely unopposed and were really just putting "blokes in a boat" not the full on frontal assault on a fortified mound of sand that the USMC took on.

No other force was so well mission oriented as the Jarheads for that job.
GSPatton
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Posted: Thursday, October 06, 2011 - 09:27 AM UTC
"Further, in spite of their training, the Marine Corps did not prove very effective in assaulting fortified beaches."

Really? The US Army had what? 3 major amphibious landings - N. Africa, Sicily and Normandy?

Marines - every island was a major amphibious landing. To say the Marines were NOT effective in assaulting fortified beaches is simply not true. The Pacific war was literally on the job training. The Marines made up the rules as they went from island to island. No two islands were the same. The Japanese in some cases had held these islands for decades and the defenses showed that. In contrast the Germans had what, about 4 years for build the “Atlantic Wall.”

Iwo Jima was like an ant farm with all the interconnecting tunnels hardened bunkers, hidden MG positions. Yet, despite all of the resistance, heavy fighting and causalities the US Marine Corps NEVER retreated off an island and never lost a fight.
Stoottroeper
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Posted: Thursday, October 06, 2011 - 12:22 PM UTC
One thing not mentioned here is that the Supreme Commander of the Marines was Admiral King, somebody well known for his dislike of the British and the Germany-first agreement.
Also he was responsible for dividing Navy equipment and personel betwwen Europe and the Pacific.

My guess is that he stopped any proposal to move any considerable group of Marines to Europe.

Peter