History Club
Military history and past events only. Rants or inflamitory comments will be removed.
Hosted by Frank Amato
Question about Korean War
M4Nut
Visit this Community
California, United States
Member Since: March 22, 2002
entire network: 148 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 12:50 PM UTC
I am rereading "This Kind of War" and am finding it very interesting (been about 10 years since I last read it). Anyway my question is the author talks about the Marines at the Changjin Reservoir. I have always heard it call the Chosen Reservoir. Does anyone know which is correct?
Thanks,
Eric
Sabot
Member Since: December 18, 2001
entire network: 12,596 Posts
KitMaker Network: 2,557 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 01:50 PM UTC
I thought it was called the Chosin Reservoir, the survivors called themselves "The Chosin Few" (play on words "Chosin" for "Chosen").
Ranger74
Visit this Community
Tennessee, United States
Member Since: April 04, 2002
entire network: 1,290 Posts
KitMaker Network: 480 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 02:07 PM UTC
I have seen it both ways.I do not know if one spelling may be Korean and the other Chinese, or Chosin is english for the other spelling.
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,551 Posts
Posted: Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 12:25 AM UTC
I believe you are speaking of the Chosin Reservoir area. Check the dates. The 1st Marine Division and the 7th Infantry Division fought at the Chosin in the November 1950 timeframe. Most folks only think the Marines were involved. The the 7th Infantry's 31st Infantry Regiment got the stuffing kicked out of them during the battle and gets little credit for it. Most of the MIA finds done recently in North Korea involved the recovery of the remains of the 31st members.
DJ
m1garand
Visit this Community
Washington, United States
Member Since: February 08, 2002
entire network: 1,248 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 04:26 AM UTC
It appears that either is correct: Chosin or Changjin Reservoir

Quoted Text

Marines at the Chosin (Changjin) Reservoir

In late October, the 1st Marine Division landed at Wonsan and spread out to secure the approaches to the port city. The division was then ordered to advance northwest of Hungnam along a mountain road to the Chosin (Changjin) Reservoir, the site of an important hydroelectric plant. The Marines would then advance to the Yalu River — the border between North Korea and the People's Republic of China.


Despite intelligence in early November that Chinese communist forces had massed on the Korean side of the Yalu, the 1st Marine Division was ordered to continue its progress northwest from Hungnam to the Chosin Reservoir. The brief autumn weather was almost over, and temperatures were turning bitterly cold. On Nov. 27, elements of the Chinese Communist People's Liberation Army struck Marine positions in force. In a carefully-planned counterstroke, eight Chinese divisions charged down from surrounding mountains with the sole mission of destroying the 1st Marine Division.


Over the next four weeks, the Chinese and Marine Corps forces engaged in some of the fiercest fighting of the Korean War. In an epic movement, the 1st Marine Division completed a successful fighting withdrawal through 78 miles of mountain road in northeast Korea. The fighting withdrawal ended in mid-December with the amphibious evacuation of the Marines from the port of Hungnam, Korea. Although suffering more than 4,000 battle casualties and uncounted incidents of frostbite, Marine Corps air and ground units killed nearly 25,000 Chinese communist troops.




From a Brief History of the Marine Corps
Whiskey
Visit this Community
Texas, United States
Member Since: May 30, 2002
entire network: 1,038 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 04:46 AM UTC
Bummer.
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,551 Posts
Posted: Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 05:05 AM UTC

Quoted Text

It appears that either is correct: Chosin or Changjin Reservoir

Quoted Text

Marines at the Chosin (Changjin) Reservoir

In late October, the 1st Marine Division landed at Wonsan and spread out to secure the approaches to the port city. The division was then ordered to advance northwest of Hungnam along a mountain road to the Chosin (Changjin) Reservoir, the site of an important hydroelectric plant. The Marines would then advance to the Yalu River ? the border between North Korea and the People's Republic of China.


Despite intelligence in early November that Chinese communist forces had massed on the Korean side of the Yalu, the 1st Marine Division was ordered to continue its progress northwest from Hungnam to the Chosin Reservoir. The brief autumn weather was almost over, and temperatures were turning bitterly cold. On Nov. 27, elements of the Chinese Communist People's Liberation Army struck Marine positions in force. In a carefully-planned counterstroke, eight Chinese divisions charged down from surrounding mountains with the sole mission of destroying the 1st Marine Division.


Over the next four weeks, the Chinese and Marine Corps forces engaged in some of the fiercest fighting of the Korean War. In an epic movement, the 1st Marine Division completed a successful fighting withdrawal through 78 miles of mountain road in northeast Korea. The fighting withdrawal ended in mid-December with the amphibious evacuation of the Marines from the port of Hungnam, Korea. Although suffering more than 4,000 battle casualties and uncounted incidents of frostbite, Marine Corps air and ground units killed nearly 25,000 Chinese communist troops.




From a Brief History of the Marine Corps



BC--note there is nothing here about the 7th Infantry Division. Their 17th Infantry Regiment was the only American unit to make it to the Yalu as I recall.
DJ
m1garand
Visit this Community
Washington, United States
Member Since: February 08, 2002
entire network: 1,248 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 05:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

BC--note there is nothing here about the 7th Infantry Division. Their 17th Infantry Regiment was the only American unit to make it to the Yalu as I recall.
DJ



True, was just answering the original question about which is correct: Chosin or Changjin Reservoir.
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,551 Posts
Posted: Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 05:37 AM UTC
I must tell you if there is a finer book than "This Kind Of War" on the Korean action I'd like to know about it. I carried a copy of that with me whereever I went and referred to it often. If you have not read it, I encourage you to pick up a copy now that it is back in print. Great book.
DJ
Michel
Visit this Community
France
Member Since: March 13, 2002
entire network: 95 Posts
KitMaker Network: 33 Posts
Posted: Friday, October 18, 2002 - 07:22 PM UTC
A good book about Korea war is:
" Ten Corps in Korea - 1950 ", by Shelby L. Stanton, Presidio Press, 1996 ( paperback )
First published ( in 1989, I think ) under the title:
" America' s Tenth Legion: X Corps in Korea, 1950 "
' ve a nice day...!
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,551 Posts
Posted: Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 01:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text

A good book about Korea war is:
" Ten Corps in Korea - 1950 ", by Shelby L. Stanton, Presidio Press, 1996 ( paperback )
First published ( in 1989, I think ) under the title:
" America' s Tenth Legion: X Corps in Korea, 1950 "
' ve a nice day...!



Mike--I agree. It is a fine book by a disgraced author. Too bad he shot himself in the foot with his false credentials.
DJ
Ranger74
Visit this Community
Tennessee, United States
Member Since: April 04, 2002
entire network: 1,290 Posts
KitMaker Network: 480 Posts
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 06:24 AM UTC
A good book that discusses the disaster at the Chosin and the winter of 1950 is "Disaster in Korea", by LTC Roy Appleman. He is also the author os a series of books on the Korean War, published by the Chief of Military History: "South to the Nakting, North to the Yalu", East of Chosin: Entrapment and Breakout in Korea, 1950". I forgot about "East of Chosin", which I have a copy somewhere. It is dedicated to the fight of the 32th & 31st INF task force on the east of the Chosin. This part of the campaign was badly bundled by the 10th Corps commander, MG Allmond, an old crony of MacArthur's since late WW2.
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,551 Posts
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 12:50 PM UTC

Quoted Text

A good book that discusses the disaster at the Chosin and the winter of 1950 is "Disaster in Korea", by LTC Roy Appleman. He is also the author os a series of books on the Korean War, published by the Chief of Military History: "South to the Nakting, North to the Yalu", East of Chosin: Entrapment and Breakout in Korea, 1950". I forgot about "East of Chosin", which I have a copy somewhere. It is dedicated to the fight of the 32th & 31st INF task force on the east of the Chosin. This part of the campaign was badly bundled by the 10th Corps commander, MG Allmond, an old crony of MacArthur's since late WW2.



Jeff---never heard of "East of Chosin." Do I understand your message correctly in that it is part of the Army in Korea series? MG Almond joins MacArthur in about '48 or '49. He is a VMI graduate and very experienced field soldier/combat veteran. During WW II, he commands the 92nd Infantry Division in Italy. This is the all black segregated divison within the ETO/Med. He is not a nice guy and the unit suffers from his bigotry. Terrible story. MacArthur sets him up as the X Corps commander and his Chief of Staff (try pulling that one off). The disaster that is Chosin is largely a result of his chasing a "bunch of Chinese launderymen" who (surprise, surprise) turn out to be a formidable foe. Amazing that anyone on the East or West side of Korea survived that onslaught. Thank God for Matthew B Ridgway.
DJ
Ranger74
Visit this Community
Tennessee, United States
Member Since: April 04, 2002
entire network: 1,290 Posts
KitMaker Network: 480 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 03:59 AM UTC
DJ - From what I read, MG Allmond was a pre-war cronie of MacArhur's. After the 92nd performed poorly in Italy, MG Allmond was able to escape "relief for cause" by claiming that the black soldiers weren't capable of combat, only as service troops, not the fact that he failed to properly train the division. You are correct that there was bigotry, a lot from Gen Allmond himself. He was able to get MacArthur to transfer him to his staff in the Pacific. The 10th corps was directly under Far Eastern Command and not part of GEN Walker's 8th Army, giving Allmond political protection. The move into North Korea and the pursuit to teh Yalu River was ill advised as the UN forces did not have adequate forces to cover the widening front, leaving a wide gap in the Taebek mountains that the Chinese exploited to turn 8th Army's right flank and almost turn 10th Corps' left flank, except for the 3rd ID the was able to secure the route of retreat for the rest of 10th Corps. It was an ugly mess.

After Ridgeway replaced Walker, after his death, he was abloe to get 10th Corps placed of command of 8th Army and unity of command was restored.
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,551 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 04:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

DJ - From what I read, MG Allmond was a pre-war cronie of MacArhur's. After the 92nd performed poorly in Italy, MG Allmond was able to escape "relief for cause" by claiming that the black soldiers weren't capable of combat, only as service troops, not the fact that he failed to properly train the division. You are correct that there was bigotry, a lot from Gen Allmond himself. He was able to get MacArthur to transfer him to his staff in the Pacific. The 10th corps was directly under Far Eastern Command and not part of GEN Walker's 8th Army, giving Allmond political protection. The move into North Korea and the pursuit to teh Yalu River was ill advised as the UN forces did not have adequate forces to cover the widening front, leaving a wide gap in the Taebek mountains that the Chinese exploited to turn 8th Army's right flank and almost turn 10th Corps' left flank, except for the 3rd ID the was able to secure the route of retreat for the rest of 10th Corps. It was an ugly mess.

After Ridgeway replaced Walker, after his death, he was abloe to get 10th Corps placed of command of 8th Army and unity of command was restored.



Jeff-- agree on your summation regarding Almond. His promotion to three stars caused quite a stir within the Army. After the Chosin debacle, he was eased out of command and sent home to run the War College. They then reined in X Corps and it became an integral part of the Eighth Army. Is the "East of Chosin" book part of the Army in Korea series?
DJ-
Ranger74
Visit this Community
Tennessee, United States
Member Since: April 04, 2002
entire network: 1,290 Posts
KitMaker Network: 480 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 03:26 AM UTC
DJ -

"East of Chosin", by LTC (Ret) Roy Appleman, was published by Texas A&M Press, 1987.

Another short book (relatively short) is "The Day the Chinese Attacked", Edwin P. Hoyt, Paragon House, 1993. It covers the war from OCT 1950 thru May 1951, and concentrates on the Chinese intervention.

Several other good references are:

"In Mortal Combat Korea, 1950-1953", John Toland, Quill Publishing, 1991, this is a good overview of the entire conflict (600 pages worth)

"Policy and Direction, The First Year", (CMH Pub 20-1-1), James F. Schnabel, Center of Military History, 1992

"South to the Naktong, North to the Yalu", (CMH Pub 20-2-1), Roy E. Appleman, CofMH, 1992

"Ebb and Flow, November 1950 - July 1951", (CMH Pub 20-4), Billy Mossman, CofMH

"Truce Tent and Fighting Front", (CMH Pub 20-3), Walter G. Hermes, CofMH, 1992

The previous four are part of Korean War 40th Anniversary

The remainder of the list are overviews or cover special parts of the Army's involvement:

"Korea 1950", (CMH Pub21-1), CofMH, 1989, 1997, primarily photos with some text.

"Korea, 1951-53", (CMH Pub 21-2), John Miller, Jr., Owen J. Carroll & Margaret E. Tackley, CofMH, 1989 (has a lot of pictures)

"Combat Support in Korea", (CMH Pub 22-1), John G. Westover, CofMH, 1987. This is a collection of interviews with particpants of all arms and services except, infantry, armor & artillery.

"The Medic's War", (CMH Pub 20-5), Albert E. Cowdrey, CofMH, 1990

"KMAG in Peace and War", (CMH Pub 30-3), Major Robert K. Sawyer, CofMH, 1988

"Combat Actions in Korea", (CMH Pub 30-2), Russell A. Gugeler, CofMH, 2000.

and finally,

"Black Soldier/White Army, The 24th Infantry Regiment in Korea", (CMH Pub 70-65), William T. Bowers, William M. Hammond & George L. MacGarrigle, CofMH, 1996

They also have several series on the Vietnam War.

Jeff






210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,551 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 05:56 AM UTC
Jeff--typically superb rundown for which I and others remain in your debt. Have you read the one about the 24th Infantry Regiment? I bet you that is a show stopper. I will secure the Appleman book. He is usually a very well balanced writer. I am sure those books will be further illustrations of that quality. Have you read the Hoyt book? If so, what did you think? It would be nice to compile a recommended reading list and add such great works as Fehrenbach's "This Kind of War" and Blair's "The Forgotten War."
What do you think of asking Jim to post a category entitled "Recommended Reading" where folks could post their favorite books on a particular historical event?
DJ
Ranger74
Visit this Community
Tennessee, United States
Member Since: April 04, 2002
entire network: 1,290 Posts
KitMaker Network: 480 Posts
Posted: Friday, October 25, 2002 - 03:45 AM UTC
DJ - The Hoyt book discusses teh failure of US Chinese policy and the results - Chinese entry into the Korean War. It also gives views and info from the Chinese side that has not been available to all but most serious historians. It has been a number of years since I have read it, but I believe it offers another view. Hoyt's books on the WW2 Pacific War (his specialty), are excellent. He has an excellent book on the death of the US Asiactic Fleet at the beginning of WW2. Its at home somewhere.

The idea of a book list forum, for not just history, but for modeling subjects also, is great.

Jeff
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,551 Posts
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 09:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

DJ - The Hoyt book discusses teh failure of US Chinese policy and the results - Chinese entry into the Korean War. It also gives views and info from the Chinese side that has not been available to all but most serious historians. It has been a number of years since I have read it, but I believe it offers another view. Hoyt's books on the WW2 Pacific War (his specialty), are excellent. He has an excellent book on the death of the US Asiactic Fleet at the beginning of WW2. Its at home somewhere.

The idea of a book list forum, for not just history, but for modeling subjects also, is great.

Jeff



Jeff--let me see whether we can put a sub category within the History Forum to see if enough interest is generated to expand to other areas. What do you think about starting the ball rolling with a topic on favor WW II ETO Books?
DJ
Ranger74
Visit this Community
Tennessee, United States
Member Since: April 04, 2002
entire network: 1,290 Posts
KitMaker Network: 480 Posts
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 09:08 AM UTC
Love it!!