Have a look at this, interesting news about Modeling licensing fees.

http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=42299

Not sure if many seen this but I thought i'd pass it on.

Thanks Mother, that is a welcome read.

It's good to hear that someone in the government isn't as dumb as the companies that produce the subjects of the models at public expense. Now only if it will cover ALL model subjects we'd be pretty well set.

For those U.S. Taxpayers out there, it's quite simple. You pay a proportion of your tax to the Defense department who then purchase equipment and invest heavily in R & D of future equpment. The model manufacturer comes along and produces a model of the equipment, paying a pecentage to the manufacturer for the right to use the 'Trademark'. The kit finally arrives at the hobby store so you pay state or city purchase tax on it, (in addition to the hidden tax you have already paid on your income tax to the Defense Corporations), the retailer of course has to pay corporation tax on their business...

So, in a nutshell, you are paying tax on a product you (technically) own already paid for by your Federal Income Tax....

Truly, democracy is a wonderful thing... The inalienable right to pay tax on your already paid tax doesn't actually enter into the U.S. Constitution? Or does it?...Jim

Fuzzy logic here that really does not make sense nor hold any truth.

I guess any photo reference book, painting, drawing, etc. of these items "technically" owned by US taxpayers should be free as well? If you're saying a miniature model is already owned by us, then any other form of replication should be owned by us as well. Sorry, I just don't buy it.

Using your logic, my (or any servicemember's) pay is paid from the defense budget. That in turn is provided by US tax dollars.

Since we are paid (24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year) by the US taxpayers (persons and companies), if I decide to get a second job as a clerk at a convenience store, why should that company pay me? It has already paid its taxes which has already paid my salary for every hour of every day.

If some servicemember (like Gino) decides to build models on commission, why should the customer pay him for his time? He's already been paid by the Army.

Hey, don't spread that around too much. People will get ideas.

I'm with you though Rob. It is great to live in the free market, capitalist society which we call home. Gotta love it. No one said it is always perfect, but it is the best we have. Death and taxes, always certain.

No I don't think that there was any 'fuzzy-logic' whatsoever. I've been following this debate from the beginning and there are a couple of additional points:

1) I have defended several times the concept of some 'royalty' or licensing agreement between model manufacturers and the actual producers. The best example of that is the agreements between Accurate Armour and Land Rover & Oshkosh - this protects the 'intellectual property' and allows the Model manufacturer, a better 'access'

2) My real problem, comes with the 'retrospective' loophole, which could hypothetically allow the owners of a company to charge royalties on a previous design i.e. Lockheed Martin charging a kit manufacturer for a model of a WW2 P38?

3) Reference photos are an entirely different thing - many government organisations charge (correctly) for the use of copyrighted images. For commercial use it is correct, for personal use, a nominal 'search fee' should also be levied... if an author is doing the things correcty, they or the publisher will already have paid the appropriate 'rights' to reproduce images..

4) I stand by my original theory, that the tax-payer should not be given a 'double-whammy' over excessive charging by defense contractors. A compromise payment is not a bad thing, but not excessively so (if it has to be paid at all) some of the companies are reportedly asking 6 figure sums for the rights to certain products. Bearing in mind that Defense contractors don't exactly have a good record in 'accountability' anywhere on the planet, so perhaps this is one of the reasons for the fear over this issue. No-one (in their right-mind) wants a free-for-all regarding copyright, but when public money gets involved it becomes far more delicate.

5) This is an issue which affects ALL modellers, not just in the U.S....Jim

I'm not sure but I this is basically the way it is, isn't it? From what I understand photos, drawings, paintings, done by the Army, for example, are "owned" by the taxpayers. You can get them from the archives and only pay a printing charge. The rights are owned by the Army. If you were to go to the national archives you can get these without paying a royalty. If you try to reproduce them from a book that got them directly from the Army you are then you are violating that books copy-write, not the Army's.

Ah the infinite loop.

Since all elected officials' salaries are paid by my tax dollars why don't they report to me? I shouldn't have to wait until election day and tell them what I want indirectly through a vote

If my tax dollars are paying for Area 51 why can't I even get them to acknowledge that I own it and take a tour?

If my tax dollars purchased that M1 tank then how can I be charged with stealing Army property when I take one home?

That new sports stadium built with my tax dollars shouldn't charge me admission to my own stadium.

The list goes on...

I'll not get into the "legal" points as I am not a trademark attorney (or an attorney period) tto me the "morality" issue What would the royalty be paid on. I think for model cars it is for all those NASCAR decals and the right to put the NASCAR emblem on the box. Is there a royalty paid to ford for the production of a 1965 Mustang? I really don't know. But say on an Abrams...the box doesn't say Chrysler or any other of the companies that built components for it. Who would royalties be paid to for a Bismarck or Yamato kit? I guess if the box title is Boeing B-17 or Avro Lancaster...there might be a point. So, I noticed that the posting that Mother showed us was in the middle of May, has there been any updated info. We may all have to go out and buy buy buy to avoid the fees :-)

The PBS show on the joint strike fighter competition was very interesting. The two sides got a big development budget from DOD. The winner will get a nice fat cash cow plus the opportunity to sell it to other countries. Asking for plastic model royalties on top of that is a bit greedy.

I wonder if Novalogic had to pay to include the Stryker in their Joint Operations game. It is a representation just as is a model.

Paul

I still stand by my statement that your notion that we "are paying tax on a product [we] (technically) own already paid for" as being false. I'm not paying an additional tax on the prototype. It is already bought and paid for (with my tax dollars). If I want to buy a model of the prototype, that will cost me.

The product (tank model) is owned by whoever produces it (Tamiya, Italeri, etc.). They have to pay certain costs to produce the kit. This is through actual tooling, materials, packaging, labor, freight, research, and any necessary permissions required to produce that particular model.

Sometimes these permissions cost money, like AM General or Oshkosh. Other times they do not, like a Sherman tank or Tiger.

Do I personally think the model making industry should be paying licensing fees to the prototype manufacturer? No, I do not.

I do think they should get permission from the company when producing models that are associated with the company though.

I don't think we are paying taxes on military hardware we already "own". Taxes are normally mandatory. I have the choice to not buy the model and pay nothing.

The way I see it is this…When NASCAR and NHRA opposed licensing fees to the big sponsors and the small contingences decals, aftermarket decal companies started to close shop. I’ve collected and built NASCAR and Drag racing kits for many years. I also noticed in the last 3 years kit manufacturers (Monogram, AMT) have changed in their way of marketing these kits. It seems that only Monogram is producing kits (NASCAR) of the big name drivers. As for NHRA the kit are not there, sure you can find the older ones on the shelves. Look at the diecast cars (racing), I remember paying $20-$30.00 dollars a car, now they run $65-$90.00 and sometimes even more.

If this continues everyone will jump in, then where will this leave us.

Rob I know what your saying and I feel the same way. My concern is I hate to see companies go out of business or have the cost passed on to the consumer where it won’t be affordably.

Suppose everyone has their way…Mind you that this is a BIG suppose. Everyone who has a name or made a product (Guns, Ammo, Electronics equipment and even Aircraft seats… whatever) will want their share. Is that right for them to go after the modeling manufacturers…then in turn put the cost on the hobby.

A much thinned herd.....and it is that, that annoys me the most.

Steve

This dig at democracy is what I thought would get US peeps riled up, not a taxation debate. Interesting outcome.

I am guessing that Spanish governement is down right perfection ??

Oh, and FYI the US is a Republic, not a democracy.

Dont want to get into the whole politics side of thing as this is not the place to do that, but I'm wondering if the companies paying for licensing fees could now be able to drop the prices of their products, for the lesser amount of money that is needed to produce them (in this case buying licensing fees from the D.O.D)?

thanks for the read there Mother
mech

Hi there, wasn't there someone old and smart who once said that Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others and not to nitpick but isn't the U.S. a democratic republic?

I must also say that I heartily agree with Jim's remarks and cannot see any 'fuzzy logic' at all, in fact his comments seem particularly erudite and well informed.

I also can't help but be reminded of that scandal caused by the discovery that, in the breakdown of the bill, a defense contractor was charging $3000 for a pair of pliers! Royalties, yes, paying ludicrous sums to defense contractors, absolutely not!

Phil

It certainly wasn't any 'dig' at U.S. democracy under any circumstances. If you had actually read what I wrote rather than looking for 'nitpicks' ...

I have spent more time in the U.S. than many other Europeans on the site. I am also (unusually enough for Europe) extremely pro-american. Not an easy position to maintain with the New 'Anti-U.S Fascism' which is sweeping the 'Old Continent' at the moment.




Not a good idea to get me started on the Muppet Show that calls itself a govenment here. I certainly didn't vote for them - no it isn't perfection it's a damned paradise for every kind of Left-wing lunatic you could imagine. If you want a lesson on precisely what is wrong with Europe, then Spain is a good model. No, I don't support negotiation with terrorists and no I don't believe in central government interefering in every aspect of one's life. So where did this comment come from?

As for Phil's comment on the $5000 wrench, in this you go into the murky waters of 'Black-Accountancy' ...Jim

I did read your whole post. Was not nit-picking, was expressing my opinion on something I did not appreciate. The points I would have made based on the (what I think were) inaccuracies of your post were already brought out by someone else, so why state it twice ?

That said, I may have taken what you wrote in the wrong spirit. If it wasn't meant to be taken that way, then I apologize.

Writing something with one meaning can easily be read with another meaning.

Black Accountancy eh, were you wearing an eyepatch when you said that? :-) Ha Harggghhh me shiverin' mateys it be Black accountancy.

Note to the Humour Impaired: The above is a humorous comment designed to inspire laughter (and lighten the mood of this thread). If you feel youself becoming offended please look away and contact your therapist.

But seriously folks, the thought of kits going up in price any further is daunting, I'm already paying around £30 for a Tamiya 1:35 tank kit.

Okay SERIOUSLY, if it cost twice that much and you REALLY wanted it would you pay the price ?

LOL :-) Me an obsessive modeller, who said that?!! Would I buy them? I don't know let's hope I don't have to find out!

I happen to have a degree in scatalogical redundancy.

I'm only going to explain this once. Democracy, taxes, big business, corporate c.e.o. shysters, double taxation and everything else that don't make sense to all world citizens from middle class on down.

Remember, wherever you are, well than there you are.
Cheyenne