As I had to acquire another Tamiya KV for a forthcoming Build-Review i'm doing, the other day, I spent a fruitless 20 minutes or so, looking at the websites of some of the hobby shops here, in Spain. No problem, the KV was available (any one of the three versions)... There was only one problem - the price. Cheapest was €21 (around $26-27) up to €30 (around $35). Add-on postage around €10...
Invevitably I suppose, I ordered from HK. Total price, (including postage) $21.05 ....

Personally I'm surprised there are any LHSs left. The distributors are killing any possibility of a small business surviving at all. I don't know how it works in other countries but here, the 'Premium' price is for Tamiya, followed closely by DML and even Trumpeter is commanding silly prices.

Just what is the problem with these guys? Anyone with similar horror stories in their own countries?...Jim

Sure, all my shopping takes place on the net, aside for some paint, glue and other small stuff.

One problem is the price, a other thing is availbility, we don´t see much thats not Tamiya or airfix in the danish shops.

I agree with you Jim- I ordered the Dragon M4a1 when it was first rereleased from my LHS. I check in every week or so and the proprietor has my Mobile phone number. I eventually got one last month for @£24 (almost $50?), by which time I'd managed to get one from China for less and one from the US for less.
This was due to the distribution system- the LHS was delivered plenty of the new German stuff, but scant amounts of new Allied stuff except a very few figure sets.
Tamiya seem to make most of their kits available in the far-East, whereas we in Europe have to make do with the Usual Suspects. I have had to obtain their US halftracks from webstores when I would rather buy them locally; the fact is however that the price premium makes this an increasingly less attractive option. Why pay £23 for a Cromwell in Britain when you can buy it from HK for £13 including postage? Who benefits from this? The modeller may win in the short-term, but risks the long term demise of an invaluable local source.

I will always continue to patronise my local LHS for 'consumables', Italeri kits, impulse buys, for my son to spend his pocket money and just to 'hang out', but pricing policy does test one's loyalty.

Sorry for going on, but, well, you know...

MC

My loyalty vanished years ago.....Jim :-)

I know the feeling exactly... I have seen honestly, the DML Nashorn and Hornisse being priced at € 55.- I have not yet compared itwith another store, but there I have seen the DML King Tiger for € 30.- So I do not think it can be blamed on the distributors for the full 100%. But indeed, loyalty is getting harder and harder to maintain...

I try to buy from my LHS when possible but economics has to play a part. I can't fathem spending 50 dollars for a kit I can order online with shipping included for 35 bucks,

Hasty

IMHO in our country the Euro didn't do any good to it either. I've got the feeling that nowadays prices are twice as high as when we had the old Guilder.

www shops have me as a customer these days. Sorry for the LHS, but instead of paying € 1 fuel, € 2 parking money and € 21 for a kit (= € 24) when I go to town, I order it on the www for € 17 including P&P. The only thing I miss when ordering on the www is the "super friendly, know it all just a little bit too well, must buy that in stead of that, shopkeeper".....Nooooooooooooot :-)

Same thing here in the US. The online shops started getting my business a few years ago when I started the addiction know as WRC, just had to get models of these cars...and the occasional JGTC car. Well, Tamiya was putting them out pretty fast and I noticed that a car kit that was $30, or so, here was only 2200 yen in Japan, about $20-21. At the time HLJ had a deal with UPS and shipping would only be $5 for a couple of models (had to wait for a large shippment to be ready to go to the US) so that was very cheap. Then I got back into military modeling...shops that used to carry Tamiya and Dragon, only carry the expensive Tamiya kits now. So, once again to the online shops. Not always to Japan and Hong Kong now, but I am going to the LHS less and less. Except for paint and suplies. I'm gald I don't have to actually 'swipe' the credit card through anything to shop online...it would have melted by now.

:-)

Well I guess I'm the lucky one of the bunch, my LHS has prices that aren't that far above on-line stores ( in fact they do on-line order handling), I like to browse the store for ideas and they do have a very good / broad selection, plus if they don't have it, they will get it for you. Mind you I do shop on-line as well, but just like to see what I'm getting up close sometimes. My LHS will open the boxes for you if you ask.

All in all the LHS lot is a good bunch of guys, I visit them on a regular basis, sometimes I'll even go for a visit if I've found something on line I'm not quite sure of, I've been doing business with my LHS for over 20 years.

Oh, the name of my LHS Brookhurst Hobbies.

I think everybody has to have a limit to their loyalty. I will pay more at a local LHS, just to keep them in business, but only to a point. If it's $5, maybe even $10 more, though rarely, in order to have it right away. I find that buying on ebay now days the price differences aren't that great sometimes. Buying from Lucky Models, or Hobbylink Japan, are two different things. Their prices, even with shipping, can be much lower than my LHS. I'm not going to pay double for something, just because I want to help out my LHS.

Oh and Chuck, Brookhurst Hobby is a GREAT shop. It was there in the 60s when I was first in the hobby. I used to ride my bicycle there from Lakewood, just because it was so good.

at least i am not alone with the lhs nightmare

examples: lhs versus hk lucky model

figures for dio's or add on for m113 = $11.50 per box of five.
lm = $18.00 for 2 boxes including shipping

academy m113 vietnam = $36.00 plus 8% tax is $38.88
lm = approximately $24.00 including shipping

so i do almost all orders from lm, and othe online sites
not good for locals, but what can a guy do?

hope it clears up in the future, but i doubt it.

reb

Imagine the nerve of those pesky distributors. Paying for warehouse space, paying property taxes on same, paying wages to their workers, paying to maintain inventory, then having the gall to pass those expenses on. Jeez I'm getting tired of this. You want to order from overseas? Fine, just don't complain when you run out of paint the night before a contest and have to wait for it to show up. On second thought, that won't be a problem, because once the distributors and local hobby shops are gone, you can kiss the local shows goodbye due to lack of sponsorship. Also, you want to send your business overseas? Then don't whine about your home country losing jobs.

Yeah Jim, .... Tell me are you gonna pay around $80 for the Tamiya M113 (OIF Version)? - r.r.p here in Spain by the way. Since I have to rely entirely on overseas retailers U.S, U.K & the Far East, I personally don't give damn if my LHS goes to the wall. Since its 400 miles away, who cares? If a retailer in Madrid is asking $60+ for a Skybow truck kit, what am I going to do? Pay it?

On the other hand i'll support people like Sprue Brothers who AREN'T ripping us off.

Tell me, the retailers in Japan and HK don't have overheads as well?...doh...Jim

Could I acually be so presumptious as to suggest that a distributor may be paying even less than retail in HK or Japan? I have been told (by retailers) that some of the distributors are taking more than 50% mark up on each kit. That Jim, is some damned comfortable warehouse space. What is it, the Presidential Suite at the Waldorf?...Jim

I just got the Tamiya Panther G steel wheel from Luckymodel for £18.85, it's £31.99 over here, of course i'm going to shop online.
As a bit of a sad aside one of my lhs's ( the best for scratchbuilding bits etc ) is closing on 13th July as the owner is retiring. Now I have nowhere to go for abuse and a cup of coffee

Pete

Last year I got the Tamiya 350 scale Enterprise for $110 shipped to my door. The LHS was selling it for $168 plus 13 for tax plus 2 for gas so I saved $73. Am I crying for my LHS....$73 also got me the PE set and extra aircraft and paint for it....and enough left over to go to dinner. You want to support your LHS feel free. I 've got Squadron down the road in case I need paint and the chain store Hobby Shops close up. I'm saving a fortune on ebay. Just picked up the DML Panther D for $15.5 plus 6 for shipping. At the LHS (if they even have it it would be $31 plus $3 tax and another $2 for gas.

"Tell me, the retailers in Japan and HK don't have overheads as well?...doh...Jim"
Look, we could have a discussion about all the factors at work here, and there may well be more markup than necessary, but as you have so eloquently pointed out, I am intellectually unprepared to argue with you.
All i'm saying is that our actions have consequences. You make your choices, I'll make mine. as or me, I still get a great deal of satisfaction of going out to the LHS and interacting with real human beings and getting some light other than what comes out of this damned tube in front of me.

Jim

PS. I am probably hypersensitive to this issue because my job at a major aerospace defense contractor is going overseas. Ironically enough, we guarantee the security of the small island it is going to through airpower. Kind of hard to do if you aren't getting spare parts for your aircraft. Cheaper ain't necesarily always better.

Jim, I understand perfectly where you are coming from on this one. I for one would love to support a local business and yes, you are correct, cheaper is rarely better. I do believe though that the problem is one of adaptation. Prior to the saturation we have now of on-line shopping, the Distributors (and some of the LHSs) saw their monopoly as 'untouchable' the majority of modellers would rarely buy outside their LHS . Now with the LHS being as far away as the 'puter in one's house... I would love to have a LHS, to actually 'interact' on a human level. Where I live, it just isn't gonna happen anytime soon. If I lived in a big city - yes, living in Hicksville as I do, no way.... Jim

Here in Canada, Borgfeld (ie. resistance is futile) has exclusive rights to distribute Tamiya products. The wholesale pricing of Tamiya kits has been simply outrageous for decades as a result of the monopoly position of the distributor. It is my understanding that the contract between Borgfeld and Tamiya is written such that Borgfeld will continue to be the exclusive dealer of Tamiya products until they choose to give up this monopoly position or they close their doors; Tamiya has tried on at least one occassion to get out of this contract to no avail as they realize how the monopoly pricing is damaging their name and sales.

For this reason, I have not purchased a Tamiya kit at a local hobby shop for a very long time ... unless the kit was on sale or reasonably priced. Case in point is my online purchase of a Tamiya Challenger 2 for a landed cost of CDN $50 while the same kit sells for upwards of CDN $80 in local shops. I have had many conversations with local shop owners that indicate that this high retail price is due to the very high wholesale price charged by Borgfeld.

I believe in supporting the local hobby shops and generally try to give them most of my business. However, I cannot justify spending 80% more for kit just to support the local shops.

It's ok if you actually have an LHS to support! I have a ModelZone 14 miles away and a small (but good) model shop 16 miles away (Dorking Models - great shop and knowledgable owner - Tony). One stocks mostly Airfix & Tamiya (ie, nothing much to interest me) and the other has no nearby parking spaces unless I take a day off during the week. I can rarely buy everything I need at either of them, so to get enough to make a decent model I'd buy the kit in one, paint etc in the other, and still have to use the 'net if I wanted aftermarket parts - like add about 2 gallons of petrol and parking fees as well.

Jim. ,most of my employers business is now outsourced from China & Turkey, and since a takeover we're fighting for our jobs; but as far as modelling is concerned if I had to pay full LHS prices I'd have been forced to quit years ago (economics, not choice). I do use a few suppliers in the UK, but they're all on the 'net. Ebay gets a fair amount of trade from me as well.

jim,

i se your point, and understand your feelings, to a point.

it is difficult to support a business, local, that keeps uping their prices, while i can shop otherwise to save some money for my hobby.

yes, if i wanted side supplies, paint, brushes, scratch material, it would be a pain to await them from online shippers. so i don't. i buy paint, other small items locally.

just a curious question for you jim. do you shop for better value at wal-mart as i and others do?


reb

AMEN to you PiperDan, LHS Tamiya prices here in Canada is just murder actually theyre around Can$2 less in a military base PX store (CANEX), but with the fact that we have two (yes two!) taxes to pay everytime we make a purchase here, it just aint worth it. Bottom line though is, some modellers like to get thier stuff in LHS which is good for the countrys economy, some prefer online shops which does good to their personal pockets, live and let live!

Here in Japan, the situation is very different than what I see overseas. Local hobby shops here are more than plentiful, and in fact can be found virtually everywhere. There are no less than 6 very well-stocked hobby shops within walking distance of my apartment here in downtown Osaka. Even when I lived out in the countryside, there was always at least 2 shops within walking distance.

Why is the situation so different here in Japan? Sure, the domestic kits are cheap, but import stuff (i.e., Revell, Monogram, Airfix, Emhar, etc.) is very expensive for the very same reasons Tamiya and Hasegawa are expensive outside Japan. Still, the LHS's thrive. Do we have more active modellers here in Japan to support all the shops than other countries do? Perhaps. The fact that we have upwards of ten different monthly hobby magazines here is a clear indication of that.

In my hometown back in the States, there is no hobby shop. Wal-mart is all they have, so unless you want to build a Camaro or an F-18 and paint it with a can of Krylon, you're out of luck. I'm sure that's a scenario repeated across the US, and other countries, as well.

The reason I ALWAYS go to the LHS here in Japan is simple: they ALWAYS have what I want, and they ALWAYS have the lowest prices.
I don't believe there's any simpler formula for success for any type of business.

Now, implementing that formula and making a profit as a business is the hard part.

I've been living here for 12 years now, and have never ordered a kit through the internet. No need to.
If I was living back in my hometown in rural Southeastern Georgia, I'd have no choice other than ordering from the internet.

Wal-Mart doesn't carry much armor!

I do both, I order from my hobby shop if I am sure he can getit and I am not in a hurry for it. BUT, for specialty items(like resin armor) he usually can not supply it because his DISTRIBUTOR does not handle some of the manufactures I like to use. Having said that, I usually stop at his place first.
capnjock

Yes, outsourcing is a sensitive subject. I have several friends who were computer programmers and customer service reps who lost their jobs due to outsourcing. Sad, very sad. Unfortunately, going against outsourcing seems like a battle that cannot be won.
As far as LHSs losing their ground, in the end, modelers as consumers will benefit because the market forces and competition will adjust prices (hopefully sometime soon). If everyone buys from the Internet, distributors and LHSs will have to adapt eventually. What can I say? I am a cheapo and buy everything online. Hopefully, we don't have to benefit other countries at the loss of jobs here for too long.
That Tamiya distributor in Canada having monopoly sounds disturbing. Maybe someone or government will sue them for violating the anti-trust law.