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Modeling in General
General discussions about modeling topics.
New.. and trying to understand
Hisham
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Al Qahirah, Egypt / لعربية
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 08:53 PM UTC
I read the latest MEGA review written on Academy's Sheridan and it made me wonder about somethings I still don't fully understand about this hobby, which I am new to.

* What makes any company come out with an inaccurate model. Don't they have to pay for research on every new model they're working on?

* Why haven't I read such a MEGA review on something like Dragon's Tiger initial 3 in 1 kit. And if it is put under the microscope, like what happened with the Sheridan, then how well would it do? I remember reading a post on another site where one guy said that the PE fenders were all wrong and that he had to replace them with AM products!

* How many of the serious modellers take pics of real vehicles to shows and conventions and start measuring distances on various models to see how accurate they are? And what is the acceptable margin of error? Should it be less than 1 millimeter or less than 2 millimeters? Is that what judges do at modelling comtests?

Like I said, I'm new to the hobby and still at the stage where I just like a model if it's built up cleanly and painted and weathered nicely. But I'm trying to get a better undrstanding of the hobby and the mentality of the serious modellers and how they percieve the hobby.

Anyway, I hope I haven't bothered any one with my questions. Thanks.
jimbrae
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 09:10 PM UTC
Hisham, you raise some very interesting questions, let me try and help with some opinions...


Quoted Text

* What makes any company come out with an inaccurate model. Don't they have to pay for research on every new model they're working on?



Well, that is somethin that frankly I would like an answer to as well. Sometimes they will 'cut corners' on the actual product when they put it into production. Sometimes details are scant and sometimes, when it is easy to get access to actual examples and recent (accurate) documentaton, they simply can't be bothered getting it right....


Quoted Text

* Why haven't I read such a MEGA review on something like Dragon's Tiger initial 3 in 1 kit.



Well, perhaps you haven't been looking at the site carefully enough . For example: Tiger 1 (Inital) . We are doing very complete reviews on as many new products as we can. We can't cover everything, but we do try our best...

To go into 'editorial' mode for a moment, Academy is not really very interested in Armor these days. The M551 is an example of an opportunity lost. With a bit more attention to detail and accuracy, they could have brought out a real 'winner' instead, the decided to take the easy way out... Sadly, it's a pity that Tamiya hadn't taken the chance in doing the M551, their recent modern armor has, in general terms, been very good indeed.

You raised some ineresting questions which will no doubt get some interesting responses...Jim
MrMox
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 09:24 PM UTC
Well, Pavels review is a winner, but is also inspired of the many glaring errors in the kit. I you take a kit like Dragons tiger I, its still got some issues, but are a much more rechearced product and therefor donīt provoke such a deep review.

I find it amazing that with todays technology in CAD, CNC etc. internet, number of surviving tanks, referancematerial and so on, that Academy releases such a crappy product - I am NOT a rivetcounter, but I like my models to look like the real thing!.

Maybe Academy should consider using some better rechearcers
Vodnik
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 09:38 PM UTC

Quoted Text

* What makes any company come out with an inaccurate model. Don't they have to pay for research on every new model they're working on?



Excellent question, but I don't know the answer... In case of some obscure subjects, it is usually a case of lack of reference materials. When manufacturer has to work with only a few blurry photos of real thing, it is obvious that there will be inaccuracies, as designers have to use their imagination to connect all dots. But in case of such well documented vehicle as Sheridan, the answer to your question remains unknown...


Quoted Text

* Why haven't I read such a MEGA review on something like Dragon's Tiger initial 3 in 1 kit. And if it is put under the microscope, like what happened with the Sheridan, then how well would it do?



Well, not always you have access to the real vehicle photos, which could be used in a review like mine. When I was taking photos of Sheridan during my recent trip to the USA, I was already aware what kind of inaccuracies will most likely be found in Academy kit (from various hobby show pictures of the sample kit). This means that some of my photos were taken with using them in comparison illustration in mind.


Quoted Text

And what is the acceptable margin of error? Should it be less than 1 millimeter or less than 2 millimeters?



I generally don't mind dimensional inaccuracies, when they are not noticeable (for me - others might not notice what I can see, and vice versa). I noticed problems with Sheridan suspension on the first picture of the test sample shown by Academy many months ago. For me it was just obviously clear that there was something wrong. Have I not noticed that, I would never even try to measure these parts.
Also if some detail part on a model is generally accurate in shape and size, but simplified, I don't mind (I can add details to it myself). Sometimes a part may be accurate in shape and well detailed, but too big or too small - in some cases it may still be perfectly acceptable, while in other cases it may not. It really depends on the particular model and part...

Pawel
Vodnik
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 09:52 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Well, Pavels review is a winner, but is also inspired of the many glaring errors in the kit.



Good point - when the kit looks good in the box and you can't find any serious inaccuracies, there is just no need for such detailed review. After all there is no point in showing all parts that are well done (unless they are e.g really exceptional example of good engineering). It is what is wrong that has to be shown clearly.

Sheridan review tought me one thing - even writing an in-box review of vehicle kit reviewer should assemble at least major components, like hull and turret main parts and main suspension pieces. Without seeing the sample model on pictures before I got my kit sample, I would have probably not noticed suspension inaccuracy, as it is not obvious when you look at parts.
Actually this happened to me before - in my Abrams kit comparison article (on my website) I failed to notice one serious error in old Dragon kit suspension, because it is only noticeable when kit is assembled and compared to plans or other, well designed model.

Pawel
18Bravo
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Posted: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 03:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text


* What makes any company come out with an inaccurate model. Don't they have to pay for research on every new model they're working on?

Marhaba!
A few things can contribute to this problem:
Basing the model upon an incorrect prototype. Example: Jaguar's initial JSIII with incorrect engine deck-copied from vehicle at APG.
Basing a model upon a poor representation of actual prototype. Example: Tamiya's M48 based on a prototype with no engine, resulting in a model that's sits too high.
Basing a model on different prototype than what you might be looking at and taking measurements from.
Example: Italeri's M47. There are actually two turret types, although there are no marks to differentiate them. While I can't speak for Academy, I'd have to attribute the different hinges on the M551 surfboard to this. Soft details are one thing, but totally different? It tells me they may have been looking at something else.
Basing a model on photographic evidence alone.
Example: AMT/Ertl's T-72. I was happy when it came out, but not for long.

* Why haven't I read such a MEGA review on something like Dragon's Tiger initial 3 in 1 kit. And if it is put under the microscope, like what happened with the Sheridan, then how well would it do? I remember reading a post on another site where one guy said that the PE fenders were all wrong and that he had to replace them with AM products!

Don't know. MEGA reviews are out there.

* How many of the serious modellers take pics of real vehicles to shows and conventions and start measuring distances on various models to see how accurate they are? And what is the acceptable margin of error? Should it be less than 1 millimeter or less than 2 millimeters? Is that what judges do at modelling comtests?

No way of knowing. But I CAN tell you there are too many at conventions who shine Maglites, the armor modeler's Surefire, unprototypically down every hatch they can find, just to see what is/isn't represented inside. I say this because standing on a turret at high noon, I can't see more than a few feet into a turret. (actual photos of T-55 turrets at high noon offered as proof.)The sun still doesn't shine straight into a hatch unless you happen to be at the equator...

As for acceptable margin of error, personally I don't care, as long as it looks right. I spent quite some time working with M109s. I'll bet if Italeri's models have incorrectly spaced roadwheels, or if the bolt heads were the wrong dimension, I'd have to have the model in one hand, and be standing in front of the real thing to notice.

Like I said, I'm new to the hobby and still at the stage where I just like a model if it's built up cleanly and painted and weathered nicely. But I'm trying to get a better undrstanding of the hobby and the mentality of the serious modellers and how they percieve the hobby.

Sorry, I'm not a serious modeler so I can't answer for them. I have other things I'm serious about.

Anyway, I hope I haven't bothered any one with my questions. Thanks.

Hisham
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Al Qahirah, Egypt / لعربية
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Posted: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 04:44 AM UTC
Marhaba 18Bravo.. Thanks for your and everybody else's input. It sure clears up some things.

Concerning never seeing MEGA reviews, it's just that I don't remember seeing one in such depth with photo comparisons of the smallest details. But Pawel explained that when he said that he had taken these photos with the review in mind.

I guess it's just me. I just love anything in miniature, be it a tank, aircraft, car, motorcycle, ship... anything. And it never occurred to me to check accuracy against photos of the real thing.

Thanks again..
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 07:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

,
* How many of the serious modellers take pics of real vehicles to shows and conventions and start measuring distances on various models to see how accurate they are? And what is the acceptable margin of error? Should it be less than 1 millimeter or less than 2 millimeters? Is that what judges do at modelling comtests?


No, that's not what we do, certainly not on the teams I've judged with over tha last 20+ years.

Quoted Text

No way of knowing. But I CAN tell you there are too many at conventions who shine Maglites, the armor modeler's Surefire, unprototypically down every hatch they can find, just to see what is/isn't represented inside. I say this because standing on a turret at high noon, I can't see more than a few feet into a turret. (actual photos of T-55 turrets at high noon offered as proof.)The sun still doesn't shine straight into a hatch unless you happen to be at the equator...



I'm one of those shining my Maglight into open hatches. As a judge, (something I've been doing since the mid 1980's) I'm tasked to choose the best 3 models on the table.

Sometimes, that's very easy. Most times it involves some serious examination and comparison. There are many times we have to choose between two excellent models, given the nature of 1-2-3 judging. That means we have to, at times, go looking for tiny errors when models are very well done. More additoinal work does not guarantee a better placement. The more you do, the more chances you have to err, but where there are no significan errors in a buttoned up model and one with a full interior, I'd have to vote for the full interior to place higher.

If a hatch is open on a model in competition, the competitor is asking me to look at his/her work on the interior.

Some questions I'll be asking myself are: (and this is only for judging purposes)

--Is there work on the interior or is it blank space? Was the visible interior even painted? If you don't want to put stuff in there, close the hatch to compete. It will be held against you in competition.

--If there is, is the construction and painting done well? Did the modeller clean up the parts with the same level of attention as on the outside or are there ejector pin holes, mold lines, sprue attachment points scars or unfinished seams?

-- Are there glue stains? Is the paint applied well?

--Is the finish consistent with the presentation of the exterior? A filthy, heavilty weathered and worn exterior should have an interior that shows significant wear and tear as well.

--If there's an open engine deck/hood, is the engine plumbed and wired, at least to give the impression of a working internal combustion engine?


If I'm not judging, I'll still use my Madlight to admire the work that someone else has done. He/she worked under good lighting conditions and put a lot of care into an area that, admittedly, will not see much from the natural ambient light in the hall. These days, my old Mk. I eyeballs need all the help they can get.
18Bravo
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Posted: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 08:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

,
* How many of the serious modellers take pics of real vehicles to shows and conventions and start measuring distances on various models to see how accurate they are? And what is the acceptable margin of error? Should it be less than 1 millimeter or less than 2 millimeters? Is that what judges do at modelling comtests?


No, that's not what we do, certainly not on the teams I've judged with over tha last 20+ years.

Quoted Text

No way of knowing. But I CAN tell you there are too many at conventions who shine Maglites, the armor modeler's Surefire, unprototypically down every hatch they can find, just to see what is/isn't represented inside. I say this because standing on a turret at high noon, I can't see more than a few feet into a turret. (actual photos of T-55 turrets at high noon offered as proof.)The sun still doesn't shine straight into a hatch unless you happen to be at the equator...



I'm one of those shining my Maglight into open hatches. As a judge, (something I've been doing since the mid 1980's) I'm tasked to choose the best 3 models on the table.

Sometimes, that's very easy. Most times it involves some serious examination and comparison. There are many times we have to choose between two excellent models, given the nature of 1-2-3 judging. That means we have to, at times, go looking for tiny errors when models are very well done. More additoinal work does not guarantee a better placement. The more you do, the more chances you have to err, but where there are no significan errors in a buttoned up model and one with a full interior, I'd have to vote for the full interior to place higher.

If a hatch is open on a model in competition, the competitor is asking me to look at his/her work on the interior.

Some questions I'll be asking myself are: (and this is only for judging purposes)

--Is there work on the interior or is it blank space? Was the visible interior even painted? If you don't want to put stuff in there, close the hatch to compete. It will be held against you in competition.

--If there is, is the construction and painting done well? Did the modeller clean up the parts with the same level of attention as on the outside or are there ejector pin holes, mold lines, sprue attachment points scars or unfinished seams?

-- Are there glue stains? Is the paint applied well?

--Is the finish consistent with the presentation of the exterior? A filthy, heavilty weathered and worn exterior should have an interior that shows significant wear and tear as well.

--If there's an open engine deck/hood, is the engine plumbed and wired, at least to give the impression of a working internal combustion engine?


If I'm not judging, I'll still use my Madlight to admire the work that someone else has done. He/she worked under good lighting conditions and put a lot of care into an area that, admittedly, will not see much from the natural ambient light in the hall. These days, my old Mk. I eyeballs need all the help they can get.



Al, all valid points you have there. In those cases, as you said, when you are judging. However, if one wishes to treat modeling as an art form, I believe it should be viewed in the manner the artist intended. Perhaps not from 3-5 feet for 1.2 seconds as in the Hermitage, but certainly in the ambient light in which it was seen, photographed, and modeled.
Shep Paine's mothod of using spare idler wheels to represent elevating handwheels inside tanks is still a valid one today. (although I have to confess I wouldn't do it) In the light in which you'd see these interiors, you'd be hard pressed to notice much a difference.
In my T-55 example, I stood on countless turrets, during the winter, at a latitude very similar to that of Colorado Springs, yet in my my photos and my memory there wasn't a whole lot to see, save for the north facing edge just inside the hatch. Old Sol just wasn't up to the task.
Over time I've become less obsessed with modeling everything in sight, simply because it can't be seen under normal lighting. Same reason I rarely paint the underside of my hulls, the track, or anything else not normally seen.
Look here:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/eighteenbravo2003/detail?.dir=5bf2&.dnm=4021.jpg

Most of that was a waste of time. A fun waste of time to be sure, but the end result was barely visible. By the way, that is not the Warriors interior set. In all modesty, this one's more accurate. Still, I want people to appreciate it without the kind of illumination lighthouses use to warn approaching ships of dangerous rocks.
Elad
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Posted: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 09:03 AM UTC
18Bravo,

great looking interior.

actually, with all turret hatches opened up including the one in the rear of the hull, a gerat portion of the interior is visible.

the M-109 is one vehicle I probably wont model before I have money to get a resin interior because unless its on the move all hatchs will be open and something better be inside that big space.
18Bravo
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Posted: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 09:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text

18Bravo,

great looking interior.

actually, with all turret hatches opened up including the one in the rear of the hull, a gerat portion of the interior is visible.

the M-109 is one vehicle I probably wont model before I have money to get a resin interior because unless its on the move all hatchs will be open and something better be inside that big space.



Thanks. The current interior offered, and mine as well, do not have the proper seats for modern M109's, which double as NBC storage. I"m giving serious thought to doing these.
But again, why pay for all that resin? You can knock out a decent interior in an hour or two, depending upon your level of AMS, especially if you use those aftermarket powder containers and projos.
My point above is that the mere suggestion of "stuff" still goes a long way.
Jaster
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Posted: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 02:42 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Like I said, I'm new to the hobby and still at the stage where I just like a model if it's built up cleanly and painted and weathered nicely. But I'm trying to get a better undrstanding of the hobby and the mentality of the serious modellers and how they percieve the hobby.



Hisham,

And doing what YOU want is really the ultimate criteria! In my opinion (for what it is worth) you must first satisfy yourself!! If that means not spending lots of time and money on AM materials, books, taking pictures and so on- then you are in good shape. The other side is that if you get your satisfaction out of extensive research, perfectly reproducing the small details, purchasing and adding AM products then go for it!

This is a hobby, it is supposed to be fun for YOU! Proceed at your own pace. If you choose to compete, be prepared to have other peoples opinions be a factor.

I am a fan of Shep Paine's philosophy- using materials at hand to convey reality! I think he referred to it as "creative gizmology".

(putting soapbox away)

Jim
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