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Relief of MacArthur
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 11:32 PM UTC
The North Korean invasion of South Korea in June of 1950 received a measured response from the United States. We defended intially from the 38th Parallel to the Pusan perimeter. In September we struck at Inchon and swiftly moved north of the original demarcation line. The Chinese attacked our forces in November and a series of wild battles had us back on the 38th parallel shortly thereafter. President Truman removed General MacArthur from his command in the midst of these actions. Why did he get removed? What would you have done under similar circumstances?
thanks
DJ
m1garand
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 05:05 AM UTC
IIRC MacArthur was defying his commander in chief and was basically going behind his back to the press.
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 05:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

IIRC MacArthur was defying his commander in chief and was basically going behind his back to the press.



BC--so if you were the President, would you have done the same thing to MacArthur?
DJ
m1garand
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 05:29 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

IIRC MacArthur was defying his commander in chief and was basically going behind his back to the press.



BC--so if you were the President, would you have done the same thing to MacArthur?
DJ



I think that I would have done the same thing. Insubordination cannot be tolerated. But, that's me with my limited knowledge of all of the events.

What would you have done DJ?
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 05:40 AM UTC
BC---I believe what I would have done is appoint a tactical commander for Korea at the 4 star level, taken that Theater away from him, and then send an emissary to him to tell him to pack and retire or the President will fire you. I would not have gone through the trauma that resulted by his abrupt relief. Truman did not even consult with the Congress. Real bad move, they came back and slam dunked him with an investigation.
DJ
m1garand
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 05:53 AM UTC

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BC---I believe what I would have done is appoint a tactical commander for Korea at the 4 star level, taken that Theater away from him, and then send an emissary to him to tell him to pack and retire or the President will fire you. I would not have gone through the trauma that resulted by his abrupt relief. Truman did not even consult with the Congress. Real bad move, they came back and slam dunked him with an investigation.
DJ



Probably a much better choice.
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 06:11 AM UTC
BC--it always makes me wonder about Truman. He certainly had his problems. In my opinion where he was fatally flawed was in taking the MacArthur actions to a personal level. The military as part of the executive branch can be hired and fired pretty much as the President wishes. This is especially true in time of war. So, transferring MacArthur to another assignment would have been a routine movement. They was they performed the surgery resulted not in a clean cut but a bloody mess.
DJ
m1garand
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 06:18 AM UTC
Now that I think about it and you've enlightened me, I agree it was a major mess. I always thought it was kind of funny that Truman didn't want to offend the Chinese.
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 06:35 AM UTC
BC--what always got to me was the lack of dignity surrounding this unseemly affair. Okay, MacArthur screwed the pooch. But, why the slam dunk routine? The same thing happened with Carter when he removed (I think unjustifiably) MG Singlaub from Korea. Just plain rude when there always is a more civil way. Being civil is not a sign of weakness.
DJ
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 06:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text

BC---I believe what I would have done is appoint a tactical commander for Korea at the 4 star level, taken that Theater away from him, and then send an emissary to him to tell him to pack and retire or the President will fire you. I would not have gone through the trauma that resulted by his abrupt relief. Truman did not even consult with the Congress. Real bad move, they came back and slam dunked him with an investigation.
DJ



Good points DJ. On the other hand, MacArthur had in effect set himself up as the defacto emporer of Japan. His actions and words were often at odds with that of his Commander in Chief. Truman had two choices, roll-over and take it or fire him. If nothing else, Trumans decision certainly reenforced the concept of civilian control of our military.
v/r,
Cob
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 07:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

BC---I believe what I would have done is appoint a tactical commander for Korea at the 4 star level, taken that Theater away from him, and then send an emissary to him to tell him to pack and retire or the President will fire you. I would not have gone through the trauma that resulted by his abrupt relief. Truman did not even consult with the Congress. Real bad move, they came back and slam dunked him with an investigation.
DJ



Good points DJ. On the other hand, MacArthur had in effect set himself up as the defacto emporer of Japan. His actions and words were often at odds with that of his Commander in Chief. Truman had two choices, roll-over and take it or fire him. If nothing else, Trumans decision certainly reenforced the concept of civilian control of our military.
v/r,
Cob



COB--I would put forth a very weak case in defense of MacArthur. I would not waste your time. Rather, I argue against the manner in which it was done rather than the action. Ain't no one above the law!
DJ
Cob
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 01:16 PM UTC

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COB--I would put forth a very weak case in defense of MacArthur. I would not waste your time. Rather, I argue against the manner in which it was done rather than the action. Ain't no one above the law!
DJ



Because MacArthur was such a larger than life figure - both in his estimation and the publics - I am saying the only way for Truman to remove him was to do it in the manner he did so. If Truman had been any less clear or decisive, MacA would have dismissed it, Congress would have skirted the issue and or delayed the outcome. Don't forget, MacA was a viable potential Presidential candidate for the Republicans too. No way Truman could forget that because MacA sure wouldn't.
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 11:17 PM UTC
COB--very true and certainly an aspect of the times and situation that we shou;ld all recall when discussing this issue. Another fine example of the fact that events do not take place in a vacuum.
DJ
Whiskey
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Posted: Friday, October 04, 2002 - 08:44 AM UTC
One of the most important reasons I've noticed hasnt been posted about MacArthur being fired was the fact that he was wanting to take the war all the way into China because he knew the North Koreans were getting military support from those slant-eyed commie bastards.

But keeping up with the recent discussions of what would you have done,yes I think Truman was right in the fact that MacArthur was defying the Commander-in-Chief.Also,I didnt know Mac was going to the press behind Truman's back?
210cav
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Posted: Friday, October 04, 2002 - 01:51 PM UTC

Quoted Text

One of the most important reasons I've noticed hasnt been posted about MacArthur being fired was the fact that he was wanting to take the war all the way into China because he knew the North Koreans were getting military support from those slant-eyed commie bastards.

But keeping up with the recent discussions of what would you have done,yes I think Truman was right in the fact that MacArthur was defying the Commander-in-Chief.Also,I didnt know Mac was going to the press behind Truman's back?



Zach--that is another key point. The crossing of the 38th parallel was never one in which the Truman administration issued clear guidance to the tactical commander. In the vacuum, he continued to attack north. By November of 1950, there were clear signs the Chinese were in force in North Korea. These signs were all too conveniently explained away and disregarded. When the Chinese launched a concerted offensive we had the Eighth Army deployed on the western side of Korea and the X Corps deployed on the eastern side. Significant mountain ranges running north to south precluded these two forces from offerring each other any mutual support. Chosin Reservior and the decimation of the 2nd Infantry Division took place thereafter. During this disaster, MacArthur against all common sense and some mighty specific orders communicated with the Nationalist Chinese on Formosa and with members of the Congress. His stance was contrary to then published US position. Removal was inevitable. I still question the manner in which it was done, but as COB correctly points out, you have to appreciate the times....
DJ
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Posted: Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 12:37 PM UTC
I think Mac was an incredible asset to the country in WWII. I don't have many bad things to say about him during that time. In Korea his ego dug his grave for him. If say a Brig. General would have treated Mac the way Mac Truman, he would have been busted down to private. When Mac and Truman met to discuss the war Mac wouldn't even salute him! That shows a lot about what Mac thought of Truman and himself at that point. He did not follow instructions and stabbed his commanding officer in the back. I think Truman was forced to do what he did by Mac's own actions to show who was boss after being challenged more than once on the issue. We have a clear system of doing things in our country and Mac put himself above the system. As horrible as some Presidents have been at war, they are still in charge. In a case like that a General can follow orders or resign, he can't take things into his own hands, even when it would be best.
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Posted: Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 01:16 PM UTC
I think, because Truman had not really tried to discipline MacArthur earlier in the war, the public relief was all he could do. If he had sent an emmissary I believe MacArthur would have stepped up the politicing at home and embarassed the US on the world stage and given tehe communists a major propaganda coup. MacArthru had been so blatant that he deserved what he received. I would have to back Truman, but must also fault him for letting the problem build as it did.
210cav
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Posted: Friday, October 18, 2002 - 02:19 AM UTC

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I think, because Truman had not really tried to discipline MacArthur earlier in the war, the public relief was all he could do. If he had sent an emmissary I believe MacArthur would have stepped up the politicing at home and embarassed the US on the world stage and given tehe communists a major propaganda coup. MacArthru had been so blatant that he deserved what he received. I would have to back Truman, but must also fault him for letting the problem build as it did.



Jeff---I agree. The Truman administration did not manage the political and military functions of the Korean War well. In Blair's book, "The Forgotten War," he claims with facts to support it that, for example, MacArthur never received clear unambiguous instructions on what to do once he got to the 38th Parallel after the Inchon landings. I also believe that Truman was very uncomfortable with MacArthur. He lectured him before others, but never did he pick up the phone and say "get to Washington, I want to speak to you." He could have very easily recalled him for consultation to DC. He should have never met him at Wake island. He was the Boss, you come to him. Regardless, once in Washington, he could have thanked him for his service to the Nation and appointed someone else to take his place. He did a hatch job on MacArthur. I do not dispute his end only the means he used to achieve it.
DJ