Does anyone know a good site, or info on the British army's Order of Battle in WWII?

I'm trying to do a diorama with a Churchill Crocodile, but I don't know what infantry units would have supported them.

Can anyone help??


Here is what I have so far....

I have conflicting research showing the 185th Inf. Brigade (the Royal Norfolk Regt., Royal Warwickshire Regt., and the Kings Own Shropshire Lt Inf.)

being in the 79th Armored Div. AND the 3rd Inf. Div. (both of which had Crocodiles - I think)

Anyone know what division they were REALLY in?

Thanks!

- Steve

Steve-o, all the specialised armour was in the 79th Armoured Division & was parcelled out to various units as & when the task required.
However the Crocodiles appear to have been concentrated in 31st Army Tank Brigade, specifically 1st Fife & Forfar Yeomanry & 7th RTR. The British Infantry Divisions (like the 3rd) had no organic armour of their own, but had units of the Army Tank Brigades (which tended to, but did not always, use Churchills) attached to them on the basis of one tank regiment (battalion) per brigade.
Army Tank Brigades were general reserve units. They became more or less permanently attached to divisions in Italy, but this did not happen to the same extent in Western Europe.

The markings for 31st Army Tank Brigade were a Green "Diabolo" (two triangles placed point-to-point), & the tac marks were on a green square with a diagonal white stripe from bottom left to top right, numbered 990 for brigade HQ, & then 991, 992 & 993 for the regiments. Attached units at various times included: 7 RTR, 9 RTR, 141 RAC, 1st Fife & Forfar Yeomanry, 4 RTR & 1st Canadian 49th Armoured Personnel Carrier (Kangaroos). Hope this is of some help.

BTW my chart of 3rd Inf Div for Normandy shows 185th Bde consisting of 2nd Royal Warwicks, 1st Royal Norfolk & 2 KSLI.
You really need to decide what action you are going to model, then research which units were involved, eg "Epsom" involved 15th Scottish, 43rd Wessex & 49th West Riding divisions. "Goodwood" only involved the 3 Armoured Divisions, who had Cromwells & Shermans, not Churchills.

hi steve-o, you might find it useful to track down a copy of 'Flamethrower' by Andrew Wilson, a first hand account of crocodiles in action. Might help you get your head round their distribution. Also gives you an idea of what it was like. hth
mc

Steve, welcome to the phenomenally complex world of the organisation of the British Army As you may have noticed finding online orbats for the British Army of WW2 is a real challenge (unlike WW1).

Andrew Wilson served IIRC with 141RAC, which was an infantry battalion converted to tanks. There is some firsthand material in this link

http://www.d-daytanks.org.uk/stories/buffs.html

Not sure if the photos are 141RAC or generic. There is a definite 141RAC tank in this one though, frustratingly the tac number is indistinct.

http://www.tankmuseum.co.uk/libraryphotoarchive0201.html

As Steve (Hohenstaufen) says independent tank units rarely found themselves forming any sort of link with the infantry units they supported. This was a major tactical failing in the use of tanks by the British Army.

Thank you all!

David, one of the pictures that you reffered me to was of a Crocodile and the Buffs. I have 2 other pictures of the same thing...an attack on St. Joost in January of 1945. - I wish I could upload the pics, but I keep getting an error page.

Does anyone have info on this unit? I Believe they were the Royal East Kent Regt. officially. - Man you're not kidding about the complicated British system!!

- Steve

- also all the pics I have, show the infantry wearing berets. NO one has a helmet - in battle! Is that normal?

Steve-o, what I neglected to mention in my previous post was that 31st Army Tank Brigade became part of 79th Armoured Division in September 1944, presumably they then ditched the green diabolo & used the 79th bulls head device. The tac signs would have changed also, as they were now part of an organised division, rather than an independant brigade (confused yet? I am!!).
To return to what I was saying earlier, you may be better off deciding which action you intend to model, then look up the history of the INFANTRY unit, which will probably mention who was in support (probably the tank regiment, so you then have to cross-reference this to discover what they are equipped with & which higher unit they belong to, good eh?).
A complicating factor in the flamethrower side of things is the presence in Normandy of flamethrower units equipped with Wasps (based on the Bren carrier).
Or you could just go with the info you've got there, since 141 RAC was part of 31st ATB, which by then was part of 79th AD, just use the 79th AD symbol as per Tamiya kit! Now all you need to know is which division the Buffs belonged to for their shoulder div insignia, & which brigade in the division they belonged to so you can decide whether they have 1, 2 or 3 red stripes under the division sign! There easy-peasy! LOL
The Buffs (East Kent Regiment, formerly 3rd Foot), was one of the oldest regiments in the British Army, so named for their original facing colour (they also adopted buff rather than white equipment at one time).
In answer to your final question about helmets, it seems odd to me, virtually all the action shots I've seen show either the Mk II or Mk III helmet usually well cam'ed up.

Ah, I've just looked @ the links & twigged that 141 RAC IS a battalion of the Buffs converted to armour, so ignore what I wrote above. 1st Battalion Rifle Brigade (now part of the Royal Greenjackets) was the Motor Battalion of 7th Armoured Division (ie carried in carriers & half-tracks as opposed to lorried infantry).
Interestingly "Albuera" (the name of the armoured car in the photo above) was a battle honour of the Buffs, during the Peninsula War in 1811. During the battle they were caught in line by French lancers & cut to pieces, the Kings Colour only being saved by Lt Latham, who clung to it despite having one arm & half his face hacked off. Surprisingly enough, he survived the battle & promoted captain, continued to serve with the battalion.
After several amalgamations, the traditions of the Buffs are carried on by the Queens Regiment (formerly 2nd Foot) which also includes the former Royal West Kents (of Burma fame), the East Surreys, & the Royal Sussex.

Here's a site Slodder discovered. There's a picture of a Churchill restored as a vehicle from 79th AD, 31st Brigade.
http://users.pandora.be/theliberator/militaryvehicles.htm

On the other hand, you could have your Crocodile supporting US troops. I've just finished reading Ken Ford's book about the fighting around Geilenkirchen in November 1944. 141RACs Crocodiles supported US troops from 84th Infantry Division against pillboxes of the Westwall in several actions.

The Americans were also supported by British Shermans of the Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry and 4/7th Dragoon Guards (8th Armoured Brigade).

Hello, and thanks for the help! Here are some of the photos I have found.



Here, the tanks of the 141st (The Buffs) are being supported by Infantry. More of the Buffs?? With no helmets!!! In combat??



Another image of the attack on St. Joost. More guys wearing Berets!



I think this is American Infantry supporting the Churchlls. (Maybe at Geilenkirchen??)

And finally, a shoulder strap of the Royal Norfolks. I assume the title bar says "Royal Norfolks" and not whatever it has on there now. Anyone know what the Royal Buffs' shoulder patches looked like? (I couldn't even find that on their official homepage.)

Any thoughts on these?

thanks for all the previous postings! It's been really helpful - and interesting!

- Steve

Opps! I'll try this one again.

According to the caption to the top photo on the Tank Museum site, the infantry are from the Rifle Brigade. Though the way they manage to hide their cap badges from the camera is a nuisance.

This account of the fighting around St Joost indicates that (if RB) they are 1RB, the motor battalion of 7th Armoured Division (check the link to the orbat).

http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paterson/battles1945.htm

So...in the top picture, the Infantry is the 1st Rifle Brigade of the 7th Armored Division, and the crocodile tank is also of the 7th Armored Division, and would be marked as such??

None of them were a part of the Buffs?? (Royal East Kent Regt.)?

I apologize for my utter confusiion!!

But do appreciate all the help!

- Steve

The Crocodile is 141RAC (a battalion of the Buffs converted to tanks during the war). It would only be supporting 7th Armd Div, not an organic part.

The British Army is like no other