okay, english teachers might be albe to help me out on this one. in the scene were antolini touches holden on the forehead while he is sleaping, holden become nervous sicne he jumps to the conclusion that mr.antolini is a homosexual.

now the book is a big mystery, a lot of in-depth analysis is required to fully understand it. i know as a matter of fact he plays that J.D sallanger plays a lot with hte characters names to define the personality.

i was told that if you switch the letters in "antolini" you get another word which describes why antolini touched holden.

can anyone help?

Frank

Francois, it's been a lifetime (1968 or 67 as a senior in high school) since I read Catcher, so I can't help you and having been in a Catholic school, such a thought back then would have been anathema

Z, sorry, but we teach and study literature because it is literature. Because it gives insight into the human condition beyond the facts of pure history. Because it helps in critical thinking, developing analytical skills. Because it shows us the beauty of language, whatever our native tongue might be. Because it's our culture, our traditions our points of reference. So we can understand when someone makes reference to a quote such as, "Out, out damned spot!" we know they're not talking about the family dog having had an accident just before the dinner guests arrive, but the psychological and emotional impact and just plain guilt of premeditated murder.
Novels, short stories, poems useless? What we extoll and praise here as our hobby is useless. When we die, our "art" will end up in a landfill somewhere. Maybe it will be seen if a website still hosts photos of it. Maybe children or grandchildren will keep a piece or two, but 50 years after we're in the ground / , it will be long forgotten, except maybe for an old codger, sitting dreamy eyed on a park bench in the warm summer sun, who knew us in our or his youth, says to another codger "Hey, remember when Z (or Al or Francois) built all those models. He was good wasn't he?" and the other codger replies, "Z(or Al or Francois)? Who's Z (or Al or Francois) ? I don't know any Z.(or Al or Francois)."
To not gain an appreciation of literature would bring us back to the dark ages.

Al, I agree with what you said about literature but I also feel that there is too much analyzing done by some people. I just took a literature course last semester. I kept wanting to yell out to the class Freud's line about "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." We read the Hemingway story Hill Like White Elephants. Granted there is a lot of metaphor in that story but some people took it to extremes. One class member even went so far as to go into the geography of the town Hemingway was writing about. How it was located on an intersection between a north/south, east/west rail line. If you went one direction you'd be going to the left, liberal, while to the other you'd be going right, conservative. Etc. Some of the things I doubt even Hemingway would have recognized.

al, thats a ncie way to explain Z why litterature is important. as child i hated reading until i read charlie wilcox.

Rodger, i have to agree, soem authors push it too far sometimes, i mean, if its talkign about a pretty normal subject and they get into aqnalizing were the place is and why it affects the story, thats pushing it. In Catcher in the Rye i felt the same at the begining, and msot people i know who read the book said it was a total bore, one of the worst book they read. But if you want my advice, its one of the best book. not many talk in such a way of a teenagers troubled life and how it can affect his personality and way of thought.

so if your gonna read a book, why not read it properly, and do a little analization to get a better idea of what they authors is trying to make you understand, it can make a crapy book become an awsome one.

Frank

Thank you Al.

I feel the same.

My own kids say the same darn thing about literature and poetry.

Literature makes you think, poetry can make you feel.

Not to mention reading stretches the mind!

So many books, so little time!

Open a book, you will be glad you did!

nothings better than a good book, a cup of tea and a nice warm winter-evening at home

Consider this the pointing out, Z.

I agree, there are time some English teachers get way too involved in the "hidden" meanings of a passage, but that's where healthy discussion can start.

Coming out of high school and into the revelation known as college, I can somewhat relate to ZzZ, I have to ask, Why study history? Why study any math other then basic Algebra and below? Why study chemistry when we will probably not work with covalent bonds?

Here is why. First off, do not get me started with history and why we study it. For all the others, in a more practical sense, it gets you into college and betters your education. But also, what you learn from a subject is not always what you are learning. By learning calculus, I am learning calculus (hopefully), but I am also learning how to solve problems through formulas. By studying covalent bonds, I am learning to solve problems through experimentation. By learning about literature, I am learning to look deeper into the words I read.

Okay, so you read a story once, speeding through it at the last moment and hoping the Sparknotes will bless your test grades (I know, because I did it just last year). Now, is it no wonder that you don't understand the meaning behind the stories that you "read." But when you read a story many times over and in a different frame of mind each time. you can see a different point of view and really find meaning in a story.

Another thing, and something few realize (I am coming to grips with it), most literary works are intentionally left open-ended. The cliche that "everyone's meaning is correct" really has merit to it. But, yes I can agree that the "correct" meaning of the story is what the teacher/instructor/professor thinks - in school. Outside, the right meaning of a piece of literature is yours and yours alone.

Lastly, you can get by with BS in high school - initially. But it only gets you so far. BS doesn't help you score well on the American SAT/ACT or whatever standardized test your country takes. BS never works in college. Those that were BS master shovelers either flunked out of college or learned to read and write things properly and become professors and easily reconize student's BS papers.

I am not an all A student. I have a hard time studying and difficulty understanding minute meaning. So I am not an "outsider" or a hypocrite, but a fellow struggler. The comments listed in the above posts are almost to a word the exact things I thought in high school.

Jeff

must agree. in class we are readign a shirt story by rusell smith "responsiblity" basicly about money and raisng kids which leads ot becoming a prosper member of society. my teacher went into analizing hte name allison( the main character who doesnt want kids' ex girlfriend). basicly came up with the word son to say she has a son, and switching the letters around to coem up with the word liason wich is a sexual affair in french. so he assumes the author means =the main character had a child with her.

Frank

Howdy fellas,

Very interesting thread.......and for what it's worth Al, even though my opinion of you was high already, after reading your post, it has been elevated many-fold.

Considering one of my majors in college was English Lit. (a career mistake indeed), I am dying to jump in on this one.....but because I am also the recipient of too many miles on the planet......I am wise enough to let it pass..........

Tread.

O.K........I can't help to at least throw this out there......

I find it fascinating that our youth feels that an even slightly deeper glance into classical literature's meanings are "useless", while at the same time they can devote an almost inexhaustable amount of focus and understanding of the convulated, and meandering lyrics of Rap music.........just fascinating..........

What ever happened to "Cliff Notes"...... ?????
Granted as an art major, I didn't have to take many English or Lit courses, but there were a few required. By the way... I found "Art History" super boring....... especially when it was about artist that I didn't care for, I didn't care for them in college, and 30 plus years later, they still don't float my boat, and probably never will.
I could name a few but that would get the feathers ruffled on those that actually like them..... so they will remain un-named.... :-) :-) :-)
Frank... rent the movie, buy the "Cliff Notes"..... and pass the course..... :-) :-) :-) In a few years you'll never have to read Sallanger again, unless you want to.

If some told me I'd would occasionally read a little Shakespeare.... 40 years ago, I would have told them they were NUTS! Today, I actually occasionally read one of those 10 buck books from Barnes and Nobles on the "Great Works of Shakespeare"..... and no I still don't understand it all, and yes, it is still written in strange, difficult to understand and read English..... but today I do it because I want to, not because I have to.

"Shakespeare"?........now you're talking Grumpy!

For what it's worth, I'll share something with the younger male crowd here....and it might shed a little light on just how useful applying the 'deeper' meanings of literature can be.

If any of the young men here are presently courting a pretty young lady, and you truly want to touch her heart...not the one she carries with her day to day, but the one she saves deep within herself, pick up a book of Shakespeare's Sonnets. It is a collection of, I think, 154 poems of love that Shakespeare wrote, which have always been shrouded in mystery.
Take a single afternoon or so, and read quickly through them. Then, share small excerpts from them with the young lady you are trying to 'woo'...........believe me dear sirs, you will get your first glance of her real, tenderly protected and special 'heart'.


Or, of course you can just buy her some cheap jewlelry.........

Tread.

Ahhhh....English Literature. What a wonderful thing. And no..im not a Lit. major. I do believe that so much is to be learned from Literature.
Gordon you are indeed so RIGHT when you refer to Shakespeare. What wonderful words are those of his sonnets. When a man actually takes the time to read those, memorize parts, and recite them to his lady..He will indeed have found a Front Door to her heart. If read carefully, Shakespeare's first few sonnents even relates this toward men.
So guys..especially you young ones..bone up on Shakespeare, impress your lady. This is one of my favorites...

Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove.
O no, it is an ever fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wand'ring barque,
Whose worth's unknown although his height be taken.
Love's not time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come;
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved

As far as the Catcher in the Rye goes, not really up on that one..But if i remember correctly, Antolini was simply trying to give the boy what he thought he needed...Compassion and Understanding..I mean, look back in the previous chapters where the guy commited suicide and Antolini was the only one who finally came along and covered him and took him away..without regaurd to himself.
Mary (++)

I think most women want to be treated well and a bit romanced. I, in my youth, even though I was very levelheaded and down-to-earth, still had a bit of romanticism tucked away. And the method described above is nice, I think every girl wants to be treated with a bit of romantic talk. Keep in mind, though, that in today's society, with what you hear on the news, war, and today's morals, some might not be impressed or even have the patience for that sort of time anymore. Its a rush rush hurry hurry, I gotta think about me world, in some places anyway. I'd scope out the girl a bit, learn a little of the types of things she likes to do and places she likes to go and go from there. You can learn a lot about a girl by what she buys and what stores she goes to. What she does in her spare time.




Just don't buy her diamonds, its a baaaddd investment. Other precious stones are a better investment.

......ahhhhhh Mary. With your gentle input you have made eloquent the very reason why we men desire women so....
Thank you for taking the time. Your selected quotation was excellent, matched only by your observation of the essence of the 'Catcher in the Rye' storyline, which (by your own admission) is apparently drawn from personal memory. I guess it must have made an impression then......huh?

Since I am indeed guilty of at least hijacking a portion of this thread in the interests of Literature, I will also share a passage from the honourable 'Bard's' Sonnet's.....

I won't go into who it is thought he wrote such eloquent prose to, but the following bit of scribble's are thought to be written after he has embraced the idea of his love being forever unrequited, and the understanding of the demise of the poet's original youth and passion......

Shakespeare's Sonnet

That time of year thou mayst in me behold
When yellow leaves, or none, or few, do hang
Upon those boughs which shake against the cold,
Bare ruin'd choirs, where late the sweet birds sang.
In me thou seest the twilight of such day
As after sunset fadeth in the west,
Which by and by black night doth take away,
Death's second self, that seals up all in rest.
In me thou see'st the glowing of such fire
That on the ashes of his youth doth lie,
As the death-bed whereon it must expire
Consumed with that which it was nourish'd by.
This thou perceivest, which makes thy love more strong,
To love that well which thou must leave ere long....

With any luck at all, this has had some impact....

I now return you all to your original channel and programming......your TV set has now been returned to your control.........................

Tread.

Ah Shucks how bloody sweet

Scooby ROOby DOooooooooooooo........ :-)

hmm Gordon and Mary you do come out with some odd stuff to surprise this poor old Roo from downunder who was bought up on Kiwi English and was top of class in highschool and then failed the english exam (mainly due to folk like Shakes...whatever his name was) who could not spell english let alone speak it who then came to this beauty land of Oz and learned the dialect all overgen. :-)

SO BYE CRIKEY TRUCKS ROOLE OK? :-)

cheers to all
Cliff who is an :-)

Cliff.. i will have to agree with you on one point..you are an
Hey...Shakespeare is great. Give him a chance..

Mary...who really is an