Spare Parts
For non-modeling topics and those without a home elsewhere.
For non-modeling topics and those without a home elsewhere.
Hosted by Jim Starkweather
Imperial Army vs. Socialsm
TsunamiBomb
Member Since: September 21, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 02:05 PM UTC
I thought this over, and overall I didnt like the outcome of thread at all. I didnt intend it to come out like this and wanted to try to keep it friendly. Didnt know so many people are so sensative to stupid politics. Therefore, I deleted my overall post. You guys should do aswel.
Henk
Member Since: August 07, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 02:28 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Oh, just to bring up another point. My brother came home one day (being in 5th grade). He said that the teachers there were telling them to be "Reporters" of bullies and drug users around campus. Is it me, or does that sound like what Hitler told the little Hitler Jugend to do if they saw their parents not being loyal to the "Furher"?
In a word, Harrison, No. Reporting on a drug pusher in school or a bully is not the same as telling the Gestapo that your parents laughed at 'the Fuehrer' and thereby have them sent to a camp. Your post shows both your willingness to read history and to learn from it, but also your youthful folly of jumping of without thinking.
The histoic points you make have been known for many years. the way people deal with these is theirs. Some people will ignore history, some people will not buy anything Japanese...and some people will tell you Japan was horrible, before driving of in their BMW....
As it is, I don't disagree with you, they way the Japanese treated their POW's was abhorent. What you must try to understand though, is that different people have (And will have) different values. You may not agree with theirs, but they probably don't agree with yours either...
Well, you have opened another fine can of worms here Harrison, just remember, don't bite of more than you can chew...
Henk
TsunamiBomb
Member Since: September 21, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 03:13 PM UTC
Hmm, once again I frowned upon for making my opinion heard. 
I really would not like people to adress me in their posts but more adress what their opinions are. I probobly did open up a can of worms, but I am sure I can handle it.
I really would not like people to adress me in their posts but more adress what their opinions are. I probobly did open up a can of worms, but I am sure I can handle it.
mlb63
Member Since: October 22, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 03:43 PM UTC
Harrison I can understand what you are saying.And trust me I'm no nazi lover.When my father was in the British army in Germany he had to guard an S.S. officer who had taken an axe to a little 4 year old Jewish boy.Can you imagine, just a little boy.But I believe the Germans are trying to atone for the sins of their fathers.The Japanese don't even want to acknowlege them.And my uncle was taken prisoner at Singapore so I heard firsthand about how brutal they could be.Oh you left out Shanghai and Nanking 
Vadster
Member Since: June 28, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 03:44 PM UTC
Harrison,
Know this, there are 2 things you can bring up that will piss people off:
1. POLITICS
2. RELIGION
Regardless of how you meant to convey your thoughts in an earnest attempt to have a discussion and know other's thoughts it will ALWAYS have negative consequences. - better to just leave it alone.
btw - you did bring up a valid point concerning the Japanese in ww2
Know this, there are 2 things you can bring up that will piss people off:
1. POLITICS
2. RELIGION
Regardless of how you meant to convey your thoughts in an earnest attempt to have a discussion and know other's thoughts it will ALWAYS have negative consequences. - better to just leave it alone.
btw - you did bring up a valid point concerning the Japanese in ww2
ShermiesRule
Member Since: December 11, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 04:46 PM UTC
Both Japanese and Germans were equally brutal in my opinion. Beating/shooting/forced labor of prisoners and executing civilians like the Japanese did certainly is equal to the Germans beating/shooting/forced labor of prisoners and the wholesale extermination of an entire ethnic race. Doesn't sound so different to me.
It is a well documented fact that the allies followed a Europe First war strategy because they felt Hitler was the bigger threat. It is probably this priority that has imprinted itself into the records and culture today. Is it bias? I'm not sure because the opinions today only reflect the opinions that were true back during the war.
It is a well documented fact that the allies followed a Europe First war strategy because they felt Hitler was the bigger threat. It is probably this priority that has imprinted itself into the records and culture today. Is it bias? I'm not sure because the opinions today only reflect the opinions that were true back during the war.
bowjunkie35
Member Since: November 19, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 05:13 PM UTC
Harrison,
First of all, the National Socialist German Workers Party was just that, a political party! Therefore, in a sense, your post is a political rant. I am not sure what the point of your post is. We know that they were both horrible. I don't think that you are going to convince too many people that one was better than the other. More to the point, why even try?
Much like the Nazis' did to the Jews eh?
What do you think they did with the Jews that weren't slated for extermination right away? Ever see Schindlers list? Those sharp uniforms that the SS wore didn't just jump off of the sheeps back you know! I had better stop now.
Exactly. Touchy subject for most (not me) and probably not the place to discuss. My research has been lifelong so I can talk about this stuff all day long if you want, just not here.
First of all, the National Socialist German Workers Party was just that, a political party! Therefore, in a sense, your post is a political rant. I am not sure what the point of your post is. We know that they were both horrible. I don't think that you are going to convince too many people that one was better than the other. More to the point, why even try?
Quoted Text
They made our troops to not only dig our own graves, but to build them train tracks in feirce jungles, and do many other obsticles that was impossible in their situation. Our troops were half naked, no shoes, and no food.
Much like the Nazis' did to the Jews eh?
What do you think they did with the Jews that weren't slated for extermination right away? Ever see Schindlers list? Those sharp uniforms that the SS wore didn't just jump off of the sheeps back you know! I had better stop now.Quoted Text
Regardless of how you meant to convey your thoughts in an earnest attempt to have a discussion and know other's thoughts it will ALWAYS have negative consequences. - better to just leave it alone.
Exactly. Touchy subject for most (not me) and probably not the place to discuss. My research has been lifelong so I can talk about this stuff all day long if you want, just not here.
lestweforget
Member Since: November 08, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 08:55 PM UTC
Harrison... I defiently believe the Germans were equally as bad as the Japanese, why is it everytime you bring up the germans, you always slip in something hinting you think they were hard done by, as in, portayed to be worse than they were...
now, to me, thats saying you believe the media made the nazi's seem worse than they were...
well, they were infact WORSE than the media used to portay them, back then remember, it was the new reels and papers and thats it, these, during war time, did not capture the true horrors that the Nazi's were excersising in every day.
You also make it sound like the Americans were the only ones who suffered from the Jap's
Do the rest of the countrys who fought the Japenese in WW2 a favour, when bringing up these facts, give them a mention, they all fought and suffered just as hard as you blokes did.
Ever heard of the Kokoda Trail? Burma railway? Changi?....
i agree with the guys, this stuff doesnt need to be brought up in the first place.
But you asked for my opinion, and you got it.
Quoted Text
But in a way, the media completely robbed the germans.
now, to me, thats saying you believe the media made the nazi's seem worse than they were...
well, they were infact WORSE than the media used to portay them, back then remember, it was the new reels and papers and thats it, these, during war time, did not capture the true horrors that the Nazi's were excersising in every day.
You also make it sound like the Americans were the only ones who suffered from the Jap's
Quoted Text
They also made many of our men suffer with cruelty and dishonor ......They made our troops to not only dig our own graves, but to build them train tracks in feirce jungles, and do many other obsticles that was impossible in their situation. Our troops were half naked, no shoes, and no food. Many of them catching malaria, etc, etc.
....
Do the rest of the countrys who fought the Japenese in WW2 a favour, when bringing up these facts, give them a mention, they all fought and suffered just as hard as you blokes did.
Ever heard of the Kokoda Trail? Burma railway? Changi?....
i agree with the guys, this stuff doesnt need to be brought up in the first place.
But you asked for my opinion, and you got it.
andy007
Member Since: May 01, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 09:03 PM UTC
Harrison,
Yes the Japanese were bad, yes the Germans were bad. But your comment about the media giving the Germans a worse name than they deserve. Please come down to New Zealand and Australia and watch some of the documentrys that have been aired about the Japanese. There was one in particular I remember it was called 'Changi' and was a mini series like Band of Brothers. It showed in detail what the Aussie POW's suffered in the Changi prison camp difenatly sho that the Japanese were not nice people. I have also talked to a veteran who fought against them in Burma and he has told some horrific things about them too.
But how much do we hear about the way the Russians treated the German POW's after WWII? (if interested please watch the German movie ' As far as my feet can carry me')
Also I have seen some articles and programmes about the Allied fire bombing of German and Japanese cities and have seen horrific footage of dead civilians in these cities.........So both sides Do get covered.
Yes the Japanese were bad, yes the Germans were bad. But your comment about the media giving the Germans a worse name than they deserve. Please come down to New Zealand and Australia and watch some of the documentrys that have been aired about the Japanese. There was one in particular I remember it was called 'Changi' and was a mini series like Band of Brothers. It showed in detail what the Aussie POW's suffered in the Changi prison camp difenatly sho that the Japanese were not nice people. I have also talked to a veteran who fought against them in Burma and he has told some horrific things about them too.
But how much do we hear about the way the Russians treated the German POW's after WWII? (if interested please watch the German movie ' As far as my feet can carry me')
Also I have seen some articles and programmes about the Allied fire bombing of German and Japanese cities and have seen horrific footage of dead civilians in these cities.........So both sides Do get covered.
Plasticbattle
#003
Member Since: May 14, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 09:37 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hmm, once again I frowned upon for making my opinion heard. I really would not like people to adress me in their posts but more adress what their opinions are. I probobly did open up a can of worms, but I am sure I can handle it.
Harrison, you must remember this is a modelling site. This is a political rant IMO, as it has actually nothing to offer, as far as modelling is concerned. I dont think anybody is really disagreeing with what you said, but are adressing you, as its your opinion.
A "whos worse than who" topic can spiral out of control very quickly and sadly ends up up with feuding.
Im sure the majority of people on this site read history and have strong opinions, on what has happened in the past. As said previously its great that you have found a parallel interest in history as well, but there are specialist sites that cater for this.
Over the last 3 years, Jim, staff and a lot of the regulars have tried to curb the political rants, current affairs, etc. to maintain the pleasant atmosphere that is here today. Please remember this when you post.
jimbrae
Member Since: April 23, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 09:57 PM UTC
Frank, once again, goes straight to the point and as usual, is 100% correct. Harrison, please rember that this is a modelling site. We have VERY clear guidelines on what you can and cannot post.
First of all, there are plenty of forums for making your opinion heard on various topics - nobody is going to censor you or delete your posts if You follow the site rules and guidelines .. The rules here are not particularly heavy, however the fundamental one, is NOT to post to antagonize your fellow site users. Politics, religion and current affairs are a no-no precisely for that reason. Everyone has their own view of the world - many radically different. It has been decided that there are plenty of other sites out their where politics, current affairs and religion can be discussed..
Armorama is not (and never will be) a site where everything is permitted - everything connected with modelling yes.
Please remember Harrison that your 'freedom of speech' will inevitably upset and antogonize other users. Freedom of Speech requires maturity and consideration - not simply saying the first thing that came into your head...Jim
First of all, there are plenty of forums for making your opinion heard on various topics - nobody is going to censor you or delete your posts if You follow the site rules and guidelines .. The rules here are not particularly heavy, however the fundamental one, is NOT to post to antagonize your fellow site users. Politics, religion and current affairs are a no-no precisely for that reason. Everyone has their own view of the world - many radically different. It has been decided that there are plenty of other sites out their where politics, current affairs and religion can be discussed..
Armorama is not (and never will be) a site where everything is permitted - everything connected with modelling yes.
Please remember Harrison that your 'freedom of speech' will inevitably upset and antogonize other users. Freedom of Speech requires maturity and consideration - not simply saying the first thing that came into your head...Jim
SpiritsEye
Member Since: May 09, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 11:05 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Like say, not saying your prayers to buhda every night.
seriously, what are you talking about?! You need proof to back that up
Quoted Text
My point is, that biased media rips apart many things. Im not saying that the nazis werent bad. In my mind they were horrible people. But people nowadays still hate the germans because the media is still pounding stuff, including lies into our heads. Sort of like Hitler???
that's on YOUR side of the world my friend, but over here in Asia... it's a different story. Ever wonder why even until now, China still feel so sore towards the Japanese? This is an issue alot of westerners still do not understand
cheers
penpen
Member Since: April 11, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 11:45 PM UTC
The german weren't that brutal to POWs ?
Ok, certainly not that brutal to westerner POWs... but probably more to the easterner POWs !
Many soviet soldiers who were made prisoners were starved or worked or shot to death...
It's true that the media tends to concentrate on the crimes that were commited against our own. This means we need to study history with not only TV
!
Ok, certainly not that brutal to westerner POWs... but probably more to the easterner POWs !
Many soviet soldiers who were made prisoners were starved or worked or shot to death...
It's true that the media tends to concentrate on the crimes that were commited against our own. This means we need to study history with not only TV
!
steeldog51
Member Since: September 04, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 12:09 AM UTC
Dear oh dear mate ! o.k. i know you are young and are infact just trying to bring everyone together in some sort of conversation, but if i see another post about this nazi vs communist or capital ism etc..ect... i WILL explode ! i come here to relax and converse with my fellow peers, each and everyone of whome i admire ,wheather they agree with me or me with them or simply not ! debate is healthy, but this is pure antagonism ! you acknowleged in your opening post this would cause problems to some, so why post it ! ?
this site is multinational full stop !
what if "Elad" or other users in Isreal ,
reads "well err the nazis werent so bad ?" or a japanese user reads " those Japs treated us bad" it doesnt bode well with what Jim Starkweather tries to do here , No we should not forget history BUT we SHOULD respect each other here, and most importantly each others feelings.please Harrison try to think before you post ,sorry to be a grump
this site is multinational full stop !
what if "Elad" or other users in Isreal ,
reads "well err the nazis werent so bad ?" or a japanese user reads " those Japs treated us bad" it doesnt bode well with what Jim Starkweather tries to do here , No we should not forget history BUT we SHOULD respect each other here, and most importantly each others feelings.please Harrison try to think before you post ,sorry to be a grump
lestweforget
Member Since: November 08, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 12:17 AM UTC
To true Kenaz, too true, for any Japanese readers who may have taken offence to my post, i apologize, i wasnt having a shot at the japanese, just saying some of the things the japanese military did to the allies during ww2 were atrocious...
cheers
cheers
steeldog51
Member Since: September 04, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 12:35 AM UTC
David that did come across to me, at least, dont worry i took it the way you meant it 
mikeli125
Member Since: December 24, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 01:11 AM UTC
Sorry Harrison your wrong,
I can send you photo's of the mass Russian cemetry behind Belsen concentration camp were 50,000 soliders lie these wereleft to fend for themselves and live in holes they dug out with their bare hands and had to survive outside in one of the harsest winters of the war. They were forced to cannibalism just to stay alive. I can also show you were 20,000 poles/slavic people lie in a mass cemetry. and thats just in the space of about 15 miles.What about the forced marches in '45 were the Germans forced marched the allied POW's 100's of miles in a weakend state and beat or shot those who couldnt keep up due to the poor state they were in? If you think that that's not "being as bad" as the Japanese then you really need to think again.
I can send you photo's of the mass Russian cemetry behind Belsen concentration camp were 50,000 soliders lie these wereleft to fend for themselves and live in holes they dug out with their bare hands and had to survive outside in one of the harsest winters of the war. They were forced to cannibalism just to stay alive. I can also show you were 20,000 poles/slavic people lie in a mass cemetry. and thats just in the space of about 15 miles.What about the forced marches in '45 were the Germans forced marched the allied POW's 100's of miles in a weakend state and beat or shot those who couldnt keep up due to the poor state they were in? If you think that that's not "being as bad" as the Japanese then you really need to think again.
TsunamiBomb
Member Since: September 21, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 02:22 AM UTC
I also wanted to make this post so I could learn more about what happend with the japanese and the nazis.
lestweforget
Member Since: November 08, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 02:31 AM UTC
...then post a thread in the History forums asking if anyone can give you a better insight to the Japanese and Nazi's during WW2, or their treatment of POW's, or whatever specific information you were "hoping to learn"..as far as i can see, you didnt ask us Any Questions, you just gave us your opinion on another controversial matter..
steeldog51
Member Since: September 04, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 03:06 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Just wantd to clear this up a little mate what i mant was i know what you meant and i know threre was no harm in it David that did come across to me, at least, dont worry i took it the way you meant it
its my dodgy early morning brain please forgive it lestweforget
Member Since: November 08, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 03:09 AM UTC
:-) no worries mate
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