Why is their such an 'industry' behind Michael Wittman? As a real dyed in the wool nazi, why is there such a constant veneration of such a symbol of one of the foulest regimes ever to pollute the earth? Just a thought - and please, keep it courteous...thanks, Jim

Well, quite frankly I don´t, but I don´t think its only a Wittmann phenomen, there are other aces like Carius, Rudel, Gûnter Prien etc. and i guess its the fasination of the ace in it self.

Then why a german ace and not an US, russian or other nationality - maybe its because the german aces generally scored a lot more than there allied "collegues" - take one like Ernst Udet, who KOéd an amazing amount of russian tanks and other hardware.

But again, it just my guess. Theres just one thing I am sure about, it kinda makes me sick when i see young kids wearing uniforms etc. at War And Peace in Beltring etc...

But thats a whole other story ... perhaps..

Keep on gluing folks...

Here's a link to Wittman

Not because he was a Nazi doesn't mean his success be forgotten. Imagine a single-tank destroyed a bulk of the 22nd Armoured Brigade. Now that is such a skill.

[edit] Link no longer called "nice"[edit]

A nice link? Are you sure? While the infomation about the pilot ace was fair, the content of the site was clearly racist. So be forwarned, the site contains jokes about ethnic groups, support and promotion of "white power" and other content that could be classified as in poor taste. Just a heads up about the link listed above in the prior post. It's really not that nice.

Whoops! Sorry. Didn't checked the whole site but just the text about Wittman.

I think it's normal marketing, give us a guy, we can turn him into a star - something like Beckham in football
Now almost nobody remembers what nazis have done, war crimes are forgotten so why not sell cool looking figures? In my opinion anything related to SS units shouldn't be subject of modelling. But in modern world only income is important so I don't expect any changes.

Piotr

I've always wondwered about the facsination with German tank aces myself. I understand the big numbers Wittmann and Carius and others racked up, but then so did U.S. tank ace Lafayette Poole and noone makes near the hoopla Wittmann and his bretheren generate. Allied fighter aces get the attention they deserve, why not Allied tankers?
BTW, I don't mean not to include any other allied tank aces, but Poole is the only one I can think of off the top of my head.
This thread is giving me a campaign idea, would anyone want to do an Allied ace's tank?

There is somthing almost mystical about a guy who can rack up that many kills. Many of Whittman's victories came in battles in which he was outnumbered. I think Villars Bocage is really the thing that sticks in the public mind. The legend of one lone Tiger going up against overwhelming odds and coming out victorious.

In America heros like Poole and Richard Bong were often pulled from the front like to act as instructors. Imaging the number of kills Bong could have amassed if not pulled out of combat. Poole, I recall was seriously wounded in combat and was not allowed to go back after recovery.

America always had more - more men, more tanks, planes etc. There was no need for American aces to continue to risk their lives in combat. Unfortuantely, sometime being sent back is not that safe either. Bong was tragically killed test flying America's first jet .fighter.

Personally, I think of Whitman as a great Tanker - not a Nazis.

Frankly I don't see it either. I don't know enough about Wittman to know if he was a German soldier who happened to be in the SS, or a gung ho Nazi. I personally have a very hard time devoicing the Nazi atrocities with the Waffen SS.

Why not ask "why this obsession with German equipment." That's been debated ad nausum here, and probably every other modeling site. I guess if you're going to model German stuff then you'd want to model the most famous German stuff, and that means Wittman's Tiger, Rudel's Stuka, Prien's U-boat, Hartman's 109.

I promise not to get to excited, as last time I voiced my opinion to frankly, I opened up a can of worms and the tread had to be locked... :-) . I'll just stay with the modeling side of the discussion this time..
I build virtualy all my German Armor without specific unit markings. Whilst some may say that this shows poor research or a non finished model, I look at it from the point that many German AFV's did not display all their markings all the time anyway, and I think the average onlooker would be hard pushed to see the difference between a Das Reich or Hohenstauffen Panter. The only time that would be an issue would be if you enter into a comp, which I don't.
I build German AFV's because they look good and have a large number of options when it comes to paint.
Unlike Allied AFV's ( the choice is OD, light OD or OD ). I don't like to depict specific nazi's, be they tank ace's or Bergen-Belsen camp guards, but that is a personal choice.

I'll leave it at that (for now..)

Henk

Thought I might add my thoughts.

I have been studying Wittmann and other German Tank aces for sometime. My interest in Wittman was spurred by several visits to Villers-Bocage during our Uni module on Normandy.

I work on the staff of the module and have studied the battle to some detail, although not as detailed as some I might add! To this day there is still a 'myth' as to what really happened. This can only be expected with the few veterans remaining and cloudy memories but some authors have taken the Nazi propaganda version of the events at Villers-Bocage too seriously. Regardless of what his political motivation may have been, and the actual events of that day, it still remains a remarkable achievement, though perhaps not as glorius as some would like us to believe. But this topic aint about Villers-Bocage so I will stop there before I start rambling!

As for German Tank Aces... Kurt Knispel wins hands down with the highest score and the least medals... And he was also Wehrmacht rather than Waffen-SS. Perhaps he was not as 'perfect' to the regime as Wittmann was??? Plus many of the German air aces do have exaggerated kill claims...

On the subject of glorification of German war heroes, this is another subject that has interested me, developing from my study of German 'Aces'. Over the last 20 years there has been a remarkable rise in the number of books published on German war 'heroes' and vast numbers of publications on the Waffen-SS in general. While some of these books do not touch on the political side of the SS, they often remind the reader of the atrocities committed by the Waffen-SS during the war. However it should be remembered that these men in the Waffen-SS formations were soldiers too, and perhaps their history is worthy of study for the reason that they were utilised by such a perverted regime. For some unfathomable reason the German armed forces seem to be the favourite of modellers and wargamers alike. This maybe the vehicles, the uniforms or many other reasons but there is a clear preference for subject matter on the German Army in WW2.

Perhaps it is because they are the 'Baddies' and therefore hold a fascination that the 'Goodies' do not have. It is a subject worthy of a PhD for someone!

However, if I have an interest in German armed forces and the Waffen-SS does this make me a Nazi? Is it any different to be amazed at the exploits of a German hero as it is to be amazed at the exploits of an Allied hero? At a basic level the performance of any human in war is remarkable. Regardless of political or moral standpoints the German heroes are worth remembering. But so are the Allied heroes, who are increasingly forgotten. And how often do you hear of Soviet aces??? In short how a man reacts in combat is interesting to those who have never experienced such hardships. Regardless of his nationality. Perhaps the reason for the large amount of documentation on German Aces maybe due to the fact that the Nazi regime was very keen to promote them to the people and in the situation that Germany found itself in. They kinda needed these heroes to survive!

Perhaps the interest in Germans is also linked to the ever increasing passing of time since the actual events? It becomes less and less unsavoury as the decades pass?

On a slight tangent, I have several Brit vetrans who have visited me at home and they invariably look through my books on WW2. More often than not they find the books on Germans of the most interest!

TTFN,

RED

I agree that there is an "unbalanced" interest in German vehicles, equipment & personalities. However I don't think it's quite as deep as a leaning towards the "baddies", after all no one makes much Japanese stuff, even though some of the best known kit makers are Japanese!
I think it's partly the fact that German vehicles on the whole just look so "right", especially when they're painted in the 3 colour scheme. I think it's why people buy BMWs, they have a fine blend of aesthetics & practicality, that somehow is missing from others. I'll have to come clean now & admit an interest in German WW2 equipment. Who can resist a Panther, or a Puma (my all-time favouite armoured vehicle) for style & form? Don't we all like to see anything done really well?
What began it for me was the war films. I could never understand how the Germans could make such a hash of things with all this lovely equipment they had! Later on I discovered that in many cases THEY were the outnumbered underequipped ones. So maybe it's an under dog thing.
I began studying the Hohenstaufen division mainly because 1) it was made up mainly of conscripts rather than volunteers, which to some extent mitigates the "Nazi" thing, 2) there is no record of them commiting any atrocities, indeed their actions at Arnhem towards the British wounded were entirely honourable. These 2 factors I hope allow me to view them simply as good, hard fighting soldiers, without getting too bogged down in the political thing. I accept that people will criticise me for taking a very "narrow & apologist view", I'll just have to live with that. It may be unrealistic to try to divorce any part of the SS from the atrocities & the death camps, this was certainly the view @ Nuremburg, when the whole organisation was branded "criminal".
This was in the immediate aftermath of the discoveries of Belsen, Auschwitz etc. Hopefully now we can take a more dispassionate view from the safety of 60 years. I do not wish in any way to belittle the feelings of those affected by the Holocaust, nor those veterans who still find anything German a liitle too much to stomach & if I have offended anyones sensibilities I apologise, this was not intended.

I have absolutely nothing against modelling German Armor or indeed figures - let me make that clear from the outset. It's just that this (shall we call it an obsession? ) that some have with Wittman goes beyond (it seems) the 'Historical' ...

I find little sympathy with the 'not all the SS were criminals' argument. The SS was, at Nuremberg, classified as a criminal organization. Wittman was a Nazi, of that there is little doubt.

The issue which can be brought out of course and I won't do it here (a real can of wriggly things) is collective guilt. IMHO opinion, anyone who participates in mass-murder whether they be a concentration camp guard or a locomotive driver is equally guilty. An issue which could be explored at some time in the future.

Back to the present thread and I am delighted to see the thoughtful and considerate manner in which people have conducted themselves in this thread. I honestly don't have much knowledge of Wittman, and like many 'legends' it becomes more difficult to sort out the facts from the myths...Jim

I find there is a certain irony in the fact that Hohenstauffen takes a keen interest in that division, but has the 'desert rats' shoulderpatch with his rank insignia

Henk

I am going to probably say something a bit controversial, but here goes....

Is there some evidence that Michael Wittman was a war criminal? Commited attrocities? Knew something about the holocaust yet did nothing to help/stop it? Schindler was a member of the Nazi party (which I am not sure was even a requirement to be in the SS). And even he is a man worthy of a second look.

If you are going to pronouce judgement on a whole group of people based on some "label" they are grouped under, then that is the same road traveled that led to the war in the first place.

Jim

Well said Jim ! my feelings exactly

There is an arguement that as the Cold War developed it served moral in the west to allow the idea that a few well trained men with superior equipment,tactics ect could succesfully halt a numerically superior force to develope. Naturally it is easier to identify with individuals as individualism personified western ideals as opposed to collective ones.
With Soviet Russia now as the common enemy,the morality behind some of the forces and individuals ie the Nazi's and there leading 'aces' which were used as examples some how got lost.
I think some of the moral ambivilance around the Nazis is a direct consequence of this pragmatism in the face of the mutal hostility between East and West.
I am not suggesting a deliberate attempt to white wash the Nazis but more a slow bluring of some bounderies.
May be this is reflected in the proliferation of certain subjects in our hobby.
October

Hi all
I think the subject is a difficult one to put into context Whitman does very often appear to be very poular, yes he was in the Nazi party and yes he was in the SS was he a good Tank commander from what i have read on the site and in some books he was effective in what he did.
I have seen models and one recently depicting SS Lt Col Joachim Peiper iam sure people are aware of his his invovment in Malmady all though he only served 13 years after having his death sentance was commuted and to strangely die in a suspicious house fire in 1976.!!!!
Because modeling has such wide and varied subjects then at times we can caught in history and at times some of the most awfull times that have happened are part of what we do,iam sure there could be an argument for having a look at the exploits of the Crusaders or the demize of the Astec race, every thing needs a secound look no i dont have a facination with either of the two ss men but i have read about them but we model the period that they were involved in, and the fact that there are so many german kits then the interest is perpetuated.
My thoughts any way for what they are worth
Cheers chris tango 20

Lets not get started on Peiper...

That is a can of worms! With an awful lot of conflicting evidence as to his involvement in certain atrocities. I have even come across a story by a well-known author that states that while in Italy Peiper arranged for a Jewish family to get safely out of an area. His death was also bizarre and seems to have been a result of an arson attack by a French communist group who had sent him death threats. He moved his wife back to Germany a few weeks before his death.

And there lies the problem with all German 'heroes'. The subject seems to bring out alot of bias in certain authors.

I have one bio of Wittmann, that while reasonably accurate upto 1943, enters the world of fantasy for 1944 and uses the propaganda version of Villers-Bocage that is at odds with Wittmanns own account of the fighting written the evening after the events.

Wittmann seems to have become the 'Red Baron' of WW2. His death makes the story all that more intriging as he left no account of his own in any entirity. Carius on the other hand has published his own bio. Whether that makes it any more accurate is open to debate.

I have a great interest in German armour/personalities. For myself this stems from being sat upon a Tiger I at a very early age by my Father...

Jim, can't agree with you.There's a huge difference between Schindler and average NSDAP member and between SS and Wehrmacht. If someone decide enlist to criminal organization it means that he agrees with its methods and targets. For me fact that Wittman was talented tank commander is less important than fact that he was icon of nazi propaganda. Probably he couldn't do anything to stop war crimes but could stay in wehrmacht unit.
Back to modelling world - more allied stuff, please.There's so many more interesting subject than Wittman.

Piotr

Henk, no hypocrasy intended, the Desert Rats patch just appeared (presumably since I chose British ranking, being British). I'm not complaining, since I've built a 7th Armoured Cromwell as well!
I see your point about not modelling specific units, that did colour my choice as well, 1) because if I choose a more obscure unit I'd get less of "1st SS Panzer never used those", or "well that tank was driven by Rottenfuhrer Meier so the colours are wrong", and 2) I thought the "classic" divisions, LAH, DR & Totenkopf (a real can of worms that one) & to a lesser extent Wiking, were pretty hackneyed.
I don't think there's any great harm in modelling German subjects (I would never model anything to do with the Holocaust - somehow it's just not right), as long as there is no attraction to the political slant.
If we are going to get dogmatic about atrocities, does modelling Russian subjects glorify Katyn wood? I don't think so & I've never heard anyone so accused. If we look at the Soviet regime, Stalin made Hitler look like an amateur in "wet business".
I have seen Wittmanns grave. I noticed there were fresh flowers on it. There were also several thousand other graves in the cemetary, many of them of youths of 17 & under. In the same trip I also visited the big British cemetary in Bayeux (were my wife's great uncle is buried, he was killed on the day after D-Day, having landed with the 5th Berkshires), & the American one at Omaha beach. I have to say the impression I took away was a sense of sadness & waste rather than any glorification.
Wittman was a great tank commander, possibly the best of all time. The fact that he was a Nazi, whatever that actually meant should not allow us to forget he gave his life for his country, rightly or wrongly. His achievements are deserving of recognition, & so are those of the people who stopped him & his colleagues.
Incidentally the blokes in Nazi uniforms @ Beltring go round & collect money for charity in their helmets after each show, I was told this by an old chap wearing a Normandy Veterans blazer.

Steve, I didn't suspect or indeed accuse you of hypocrisy, I just thought It was ironic.. :-) .



I don't think anybody who has ever visited a war cemetery could come away with a feeling of glorification.. The rows upon rows of simple white crosses just emphasise the enormous waste of human beings that war really is. I visited several when was still living in the Netherlands, Oosterbeek several times, and it is amazing how such places, even in the middle of a city or town, have an almost eiry silence.... They say that on the spot of Auswitz no birds have nested or sung since 1945.... I don't think I do it deliberatly to make a staement, but I build hardly any 'Battle' dio's. I tend to build vehicles in a non combat pose, with figures either resting or re-feuling or something.
Maybe schools should be more involved with the upkeep of war graves, to teach the kids what it was all about.

Oh dear, I don't half ramble on at this time in the morning :-)

Cheers
Henk

Henk, I think we're singing from the same hymnsheet.
Incidentally, I think it's quite widely known that the schoolchildren of the Arnhem district all "adopt" a British wargrave in the cemetary & put flowers on it during a ceremony in September. They have been doing it ever since the war.
With the current uproar over Prince Harry, maybe trips should be arranged to war graves for the current young generation. I found it a very humbling experience.
I'm also reading Heinz Hohne's Order of the Deaths Head book. It doesn't pull any punches & I don't feel that I am under any illusions about the nature of Nazism. However it is plain that the SS was a monolithic organisation, & there were people in it who weren't even party members, let alone Nazis (the German police were transferred lock stock & barrel, some of these were men who had fought Nazi street gangs in the 20s & 30s.).
There were people, not dyed in the wool Nazis, who joined the Waffen SS because it was perceived @ the time as an elite corps, rather like the USMC, Guards etc. Was Wittman one of these? I don't know.
"Those who fail to study history are doomed to make the same mistakes".