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Dien Bien Phu
Sabot
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2002 - 02:21 AM UTC
I have to give a group campaign brief on Dien Bien Phu (with a group of about 7 others). Anyone have any quick reference sites bookmarked for this battle? As luck has it, the French officer signed up for this brief too, go figure

Again, fates smiled on me when I awoke Saturday morning and turned on the TV. The History Channel had been on the previous night and the program that came on was the Ten Thousand Day War series and Dien Bien Phu was the episode. I missed the first 5 minutes but did have a tape ready to go in the VCR and got the rest.

BTW, opinions and analyses of the battle are welcome.
Folgore
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2002 - 02:33 AM UTC
Dien Bien Phu

Rob--This looks like an excellent site on the battle. I don't know much about Dien Bien Phu, itself, other than it's consequences, which we learned in school. I was the only one in the class that could ever remember the name of that battle.......

Nic
Sabot
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2002 - 03:09 AM UTC
Good site, thanks.
210cav
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2002 - 08:53 AM UTC
Rob--while it will not be of much help in the short run, Bernard Fall's "Hell In A Very Small Place" is the classic analysis of this battle. It is a tough read. Organization, place names, and personalities beg for additional resources in the form of maps. At any rate, the French wish to conduct a deep penetration into the Viet Minh controlled area known as the Red River Valley. They airlift a bunch of people into the area and attempt to maintain it through air resupply and air interdiction. They are ill prepared at both the command and control level and the tactical level for this kind of deep operation. The French command structure is still looking to defeat the Viet Minh in the classic set piece battle. Well, here it is and they are unable to over come the enemy use of artillery and infiltration. It gets so bad that President Eisenhower seriously contemplates sending air and land forces to help the French. Wise minds prevail (foremost the Army Chief of Staff Matthew B. Ridgway) and we do not intervene. At the tactical level, the French use 75mm guns and the Viet Minh hammer at them with Korean War captured American 105's. The French bring in four M-24s and use them as pillboxes. They hold out for a considerable period of time. Air cover appears in the form of SB2C Helldivers given to the French. You know the story with those aircraft in terms of loiter time and payload. The French capitulate after doing everything from airborne operations to long range carrier operations to try to defeat the Communist. The survivors fair badly in the POW Camps---a foretaste of what is awaiting Americans who become captives years later. This eventually leads to the peace table and the division of the north and south at the 17 paralle. The "good guys" escape with much American assistance to the south where they take over the government in the form of the Diem regime which subsequently leads to all sorts of trouble. We are sensitive to the effects of such a catastrophic defeat and when the Marines get themselves in the same type mess in Khe Sahn, we do everything and anything to protect them. After bloodying the NVA and VC, we pull out of the area and infrequently return. Figure that one out, I never could. At any rate, look at the map of the North and you will see where the seizure of Dien Bien Phu by the French would cut the logistical lines of the Viet Minh. The French just could not bring it off and we paid a heavy price for a carbon type operation that added up to another big fat zero......war is crazy!
Hope this helps
DJ
cdave
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2002 - 11:36 AM UTC
Rob,

Good timing. If I had a better memory, I could enlighten you with some first hand notes.

Dad was a "spook" in 'Nam before the US envolvement. (Note, he was on one of the last chopters to leave Siagon.)

Dave
Ranger74
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2002 - 11:11 PM UTC
"Hell in a Very Small Place", excellent read. I have my copy here at my offic. After you study this battle, you will find few actual parallels between Dien Bien Phu and the US involvement at Khe Sahn, despite what teh anti-war press wanted you to believe. The Franch never had the air power that the US possessed. After you read "Hell", get Fall's book, "Street Without Joy" which covers the French involvement in Indochina and also covers that other famous French disaster Mobile Group 100.
ARENGCA
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Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 12:17 AM UTC
As I recall, the French did a poor job of understanding the terrain in the area. The basic concept was to 'draw the VM out' of the mountains and force them to fight in the open ground around the French base. They essentially chose to build a defensive position in the least defensible place available.

The site they chose for their base was surrounded by higher ground, which allowed the VM to place observed artillery fire onto most areas of the base. They underestimated/
dismissed the VM artillery, deciding that they could not move heavy artillery into the area because of poor/no roads. The VM simply manhandled the guns into position (in some cases disassembling the guns and moving the parts, then reassembling the gun in position) , then supplied them by hauling ammo, etc. by foot.

The French failed to ID and control the major avenues-of-approach, and ceded the initiative by building a defensive position and essentially daring the VM to take them out. Once in position, the French did not have the forces either inside or outside the valley to protect the logistical routes. The VM quickly cut these routes and isolated the forces at DBP. From there on, the siege is a study in creative logistics how things can go wrong. Virtually every problem with logistics, primarily air-supplied, can trace it's root to the poor planning of the operation and the poor choice of location. In the end, the logistical inability to support the beseiged base led to the defeat. The French ran out of virtually everything before surrendering. Even the Foreign Legion needs to eat, and their guns need ammuntion just like everyone elses. No bullets, no fight.

Much of this poor planning has to fall on the shoulders of the French staff, which was largely composed of WWII vets and traditionally trained officers. The French were disdainful of the VM, and failed to understand the enemy capabilities. The focus was on drawing the VM into a set-piece battle, where the natural superiority of the French warriors could crush the savages. The French staff assumed that the VM would react as they determined, and never considered that the VM might find alternate courses-of-action that were not accounted for in the planning. Failing to incorporate the needs for logistical support and contingencies into the base plan allowed an unsupportable course-of-action to be chosen. and led to the deaths of a lot of good men.

Dunno if this helps, but there you go...
210cav
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Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 12:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text

As I recall, the French did a poor job of understanding the terrain in the area. The basic concept was to 'draw the VM out' of the mountains and force them to fight in the open ground around the French base. They essentially chose to build a defensive position in the least defensible place available.

The site they chose for their base was surrounded by higher ground, which allowed the VM to place observed artillery fire onto most areas of the base. They underestimated/
dismissed the VM artillery, deciding that they could not move heavy artillery into the area because of poor/no roads. The VM simply manhandled the guns into position (in some cases disassembling the guns and moving the parts, then reassembling the gun in position) , then supplied them by hauling ammo, etc. by foot.

The French failed to ID and control the major avenues-of-approach, and ceded the initiative by building a defensive position and essentially daring the VM to take them out. Once in position, the French did not have the forces either inside or outside the valley to protect the logistical routes. The VM quickly cut these routes and isolated the forces at DBP. From there on, the siege is a study in creative logistics how things can go wrong. Virtually every problem with logistics, primarily air-supplied, can trace it's root to the poor planning of the operation and the poor choice of location. In the end, the logistical inability to support the beseiged base led to the defeat. The French ran out of virtually everything before surrendering. Even the Foreign Legion needs to eat, and their guns need ammuntion just like everyone elses. No bullets, no fight.

Much of this poor planning has to fall on the shoulders of the French staff, which was largely composed of WWII vets and traditionally trained officers. The French were disdainful of the VM, and failed to understand the enemy capabilities. The focus was on drawing the VM into a set-piece battle, where the natural superiority of the French warriors could crush the savages. The French staff assumed that the VM would react as they determined, and never considered that the VM might find alternate courses-of-action that were not accounted for in the planning. Failing to incorporate the needs for logistical support and contingencies into the base plan allowed an unsupportable course-of-action to be chosen. and led to the deaths of a lot of good men.

Dunno if this helps, but there you go...




My faulty recollection aside, I believe you are right on the money. Very good analysis.
DJ
Eagle
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Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 01:37 AM UTC
Rob,
hope this one helps you a bit:

http://www.dienbienphu.org/english/

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/11/spotlight/

http://www.hawaii.edu/cseas/pubs/explore/v1/v1n2-art2.html

Plenty to read I'd say. Good Luck and Have Fun !
210cav
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Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 03:56 AM UTC



Nice run down of sites.
DJ
Sabot
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Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 08:26 AM UTC
Of course today, they posted the groups and I was moved to the Falklands Island campaign group. Time for a new search.

BTW, the reason why I was moved was because the Falklands group was weak and they needed an Ops type guy. Either that or it was for a 1st round draft pick and a player to be named later.
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 07:33 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Of course today, they posted the groups and I was moved to the Falklands Island campaign group. Time for a new search.

BTW, the reason why I was moved was because the Falklands group was weak and they needed an Ops type guy. Either that or it was for a 1st round draft pick and a player to be named later.



Rob--what course are you taking?
DJ
Eagle
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Posted: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 07:45 PM UTC
http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/cmackenzie/website/falkland.htm
Quoted Text

Time for a new search.



http://www.yendor.com/vanished/falklands-war.html

http://www.naval-history.net/NAVAL1982FALKLANDS.htm

http://www.comcen.com.au/~raiment/

http://guest.xinet.com/ignacio/polsi342/falklands.html

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Falklands/

Pfew.... you're not the easy kind o' guy....

Happy reading again Rob !
Sabot
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Posted: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 08:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Rob--what course are you taking?
DJ

Logistics Executive Development Course. Four-month long upper level log toad course that gives 15 credits towards a masters from Florida Institute of Technology (FIT). First test tomorrow on Manpower and PPBS with an Economics test on Friday.

Thanks for the links Eagle!
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 07:09 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Rob--what course are you taking?
DJ

Logistics Executive Development Course. Four-month long upper level log toad course that gives 15 credits towards a masters from Florida Institute of Technology (FIT). First test tomorrow on Manpower and PPBS with an Economics test on Friday.

Thanks for the links Eagle!



Rob--PM me if you need anything on PPBES (the Army version) or PPBS (DoD version). Where are you --- Belvoir?
DJ
2-2dragoon
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Posted: Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 01:11 PM UTC
Good luck Rob... I am just starting the mid-point class in a MPA program via sattelite... Lots more thinking involved in a masters than a BA/BS degree.