I thought for something a little different, I would get your views on the Italian military in WWII, in particular Mussolini's armed forces from 1940-1943. What do you believe were the main weaknesses of their military that led to defeat? What do you think of the stereotype held by many that the Italians were simply cowards (better lovers than fighters I think the saying goes)?
I won't give my opinions yet, because a couple years ago I wrote a paper on the weaknesses of the Italian Army for school. Some people agreed with my conclusions, others did not. I'm very interested in the Italian contribution to WWII, even though I'm not Italian, so I'm not putting this question up for nationalistic purposes. I just wanted some other views on this topic.

Nic

From what I have read, the Italian soldier was a good fighter, particularly when well led. There apparently, were some leadership problems among the officer corps, partly related to affects of Facist Party system. Italian units in North Africa that had German officers fought as well as German units. The Italians also had problems with outdated armored vehicles that suffered heavy losses - a real damper on morale of the tank units.

Almost forgot: the Italian Navy scored some significant coups with their manned torpedos against both British and Germans (after surrender).

The Italians had some great outfits. For example the Alpini. But, instead of being used properly, Hitler put them on the Steppe. Dumb.

I think the biggest issue was the need for something to 'fight for.' What did the average Italian soldier think of the war? Of their leaders?

When given cause, they were and are great fighters.

Steve

Steve--I don't think Hitler had much to do with the deployment of Mussolini's troops. In fact, there were a few occations where Mussolini offered Hitler some Italian soldiers, and Hitler declined. Mussolini had his way and sent them anyway. An example of this is the Regio Aeronautica in the Battle of Britain. Mussolini sent a squadron or two of obsolete CR.42 biplanes to aid the Germans. You may have seen the pictures of these planes nose first in English fields........ Hitler didn't want them, but there they were.
Your point on what they had to fight for is most valid, indeed. Most could care less about fascism and the war, as is evident from the pictures of jovial Italians surrendering in 1943. Knowing this, though, how can we explain their valiant stands in North Africa? The Battle of Nebeiwa for example, or the Folgore Division at El Alamein.
The fanatics, the Blackshirts, were far from SS calibre. Though loyal to Mussolini, they were so poorly trained and equipped, they were useless in the field. I suppose they are better compared to the SA.
The Alpini were good, but, as their name suggests, they were mountain troops. Not very useful on the Russian steppes or the North African desert. They might have been more successful fighting the French in the Alps or the Greeks in Albania and Greece, but I'm not sure if they were ever posted there or not.
Ranger74 makes a good point with the leadership in the Italian Army. Most commanders were not very high calibre, because they were generally fascist friends of Mussolini who gave them their positions. They had combat experience in WWI, but not in the same role they would be charged with in WWII and not with the tactics of WWII, particularly in the desert. While successful against the Abyssinians, they crumbled under a modern force.
I think I've said enough for now. I don't think I'll get into the outdated weaponry yet. Keep the discussion going, guys.

Nic

I think the Italians, being a very passionate people, just did not have their hearts in it. No one "loved" or "blindly followed" El Duce like they did Hitler. Many saw him as Hitler's lap dog. It just wasn't their (Italian people) war.

Additionally, they did not have a large standing army, no massed formations, no "we must hold this line or our fellow countrymen will fall" since they were piece mealed into the German formations.

Rob--You're right about the size of their army. Mussolini's advisors told him the army would not be ready for war until at least 1942. After seeing Hitler's success in France, though, he had to join if he wanted to reap the rewards. He didn't expect the British to keep the war going. Despite having an army that was relatively small (it was still pretty big) and poorly equipped, Mussolini spread his forces very thin. The Italians fought in France, Russia, Greece, Yugoslavia, Eritrea, and North Africa, almost all at the same time. He couldn't give Graziani in Libya what he needed to defeat the British (tanks and motorized transport), because he was saving up for the invasion of Greece, which failed dismally anyway. Like Hitler, Mussolini made too many of the military decisions. The problem was, he was a far worse tactician than the "little corporal" ever was.


This isn't quite accurate, but maybe I just misunderstnad you. The whole reason the Germans were in North Africa was because the Italians made a fiasco of their invasion of Egypt. They had 200 000 men compared to the British force of 36 000, but the Brits (and Australians and Indians) were still able to counterattack, drive the Italians back to Tripoli and capture some 130 000 prisoners! The Italians also fought alone in Greece, before Hitler was forced to intervene again. So, they did fight together in some occasions, and perhaps the "we must hold the line or our countrymen will fall" explains why they did fight so hard when the did.
At Beda Fomm, the British cut off the retreating Italians after Operation Compass, the British counterattack to drive the Italians out of Egypt. The Italians made several desperate breakout attempts with their remaining armour, but suffered terribly. At El Alamein, when Rommel ordered a retreat, the Italians were left behind, as they had little motorized transport. The Folgore Division held on as long as possible to allow their fellow Italians to escape capture. The Ariete Division was decimated when they charged the British armour ina n attempt to aid the Folgore. I guess that just proves that when they did have something to fight for, they could and would fight.

Nic

Ultimately, I think the Italians came under the control of the Germans in Russia. I was reading about this recently and will try to find the source.

Still, alpine troops were ordered to fight on an open plain where the highest terrain features for hundreds of miles were ant hills! I'm sure there were better places to use them.

Steve

Yes, you're right Steve. Once in Russia, I believe they would have been under overall German command. What I was saying was that it was Mussolini that sent those troops to the Russian front, not Hitler, then they came under German authority. It's kind of like the Afrika Korps being sent to North Africa. Originally, Rommel and his force of Germans were under overall Italian command, but Mussolini did not specifically order them to North Africa, Hitler did. Just like Mussolini couldn't order German armies around, Hitler couldn't order Italian units, unless they were attached to the German army, like in Russia.
Like I said, the Alpini would have better been used against the Greeks (a campaign which probably should neve have occurred) or in defense of the Italian peninsula. The certainly didn't deserve to be sent to the steppes, that's for sure.

Nic

I think that the general consensus is that bad leadership, poor training, and even poorer equipment was what made the Italian army into an ineffective fighting force. Those 3 things (more specifically the first 2) will kill any army. I think that if they were led by competent officers and were properly trained prior to combat there wouldn't have been a need for the Afrika Korps or German involvement in Greece.

Italian men are very fiesty and strong willed. I should know, I am 50% Italian and the members of my family who were full-blooded Italians were the type of people that you knew not to f*** with. My Uncle Archie for example, served in the US Navy at the very end of WWII. He was disappointed that he didn't see any action so when his few years were up he joined the 82nd Airborne. He then saw action in Korea and then Vietnam. In Vietnam, he did his first tour and signed up for a 2nd and then a 3rd. He was a great guy to have on your side, but god I feel sorry for his enemies. The funny thing was that all of the men on that side of the family were the same. They were very nice, but quick to anger and once angry you'd best watchout.

That pretty well sums it up, Adam. In my study, which focused primarily on the Italian forces in Libya during Operation Compass (December 1940-February 1941) I found that the Italian Army had been exhausted by a number of smaller wars between the World Wars and its troops were poorly trained, poorly paid, poorly fed, and poorly led. Indeed, not a good combination. Italian industry also lagged behind the other powers so they were incapale of keeping pace with the machinery of war. As a result, the Italians almost always went into battle with obsolete tanks, guns, and airplanes. Though there were some brilliant Italian designs, their industry was not able to produce them in great numbers. In the desert, however, perhaps the most important weakness of all, was that the Italian Army, though 200 000 strong, was a foot army. With the wide expanses of the desert, the British, who were mechanized, could almost always outflank the Italians and meet them in concentration. For the Italians, it was impossible to move further than 60 miles into Egypt. They were a defensive army, and even then, their outposts were spread so far apart they could not support eachother. Italy, like the Japanese, got into a war they could not win.

Nic

Not sure if this has been talked about yet but, what about Spain and Ethiopia?

Remember, the Italians had been in action before the war and this had drained their forces. They were far from 'fresh' when WWII began.

I think this was a big factor.

Steve

Exactly. I mentioned this in my previous post, that the country was worn out by smaller wars, and still feeling the effects of WWI. Ethiopia was a farce. The Italians bombed and shelled barefoot tribesmen carrying spears. Marshal Rudolfo Graziani held a command in Ethiopia (or Abyssinia). By WWII, Graziani was governor of Libya and, consequently, commanded the force invading Egypt in September 1940. Though he could defeat the Abyssinians, Graziani proved less capable against the modern British Army, as I have already described. The blame should not be placed entirely on Graziani's shoulders, though, as the force he had, though large, was incabable of carrying out the warfare required in the desert. In fact, Graziani may have been smart to halt the drive only 60 miles into Egypt, as he foresaw the difficulties of supply that would occur as the advance continued. These difficulties would plague both Axis and Allies in the following years of fighting in North Africa. Mussolini sacked him after he was driven back to Tripoli, but Graziani remained loyal to the end. Just a little tidbit of information, there.
The Spanish Civil War should have had a far greater effect on the Italian military than it did. Mussolini sent large numbers of troops and vehicles there. The Italians were not very successful, their tanks suffering at the hands of the Soviet supplied armour in use by the Republicans. Yet, it doesn't appear that anything was learned from this experience, especially by Mussolini. Perhaps this is what promted his generals to tell him the country would not be ready for war until 1942. I like Len Deighton's quote from Blood, Tears, and Folly: "Perhaps Mussolini took to reading his own press releases . . . and began believing that he commanded a formidable fighting machine."

Nic

The Italians had a some great ships and crews that wanted to fight. If they had had Radar and some imported optics for fire control, they might have given the hard pressed British Med Fleet a run for their money and made it Mussolini's Mare Nostrum. Remember what they did in Alexandria harbor to those British battlewagons with a couple pig boats? They almost had the Aquila ready to go before the Germans captured her and the Italians sunk her themselves.