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More 'What if' Pacific: Iwo Jima
sniper
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 02:08 AM UTC

OK, here's a 'what if.'

Why, in 1944 after the Marianas campaign, did the U.S. invade the Philippines to the South instead of continuing North East toward Iwo Jima and eventually the Japanese home islands?

The eight month delay in going after Iwo allowed the Japanese to build tremendous defenses and reinforce the island.

Now what's interesting here are not only the military questions but also the political ones; the relationship between the MacArthurs and the Roosevelts, the fact that it was an election year (yup, no assurances of who would be voted in or out), etc.

The Japanese Navy has said this was a big U.S. blunder. Certainly the Iwo campaign was bloody when it happened in '45. What was gained by invading the Philippines? What if they had been bypassed.

I take no responsibility for what happened either way. I ask not because I agree or disagree with what happened and therefore cannot be changed.

Steve
m1garand
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 02:12 AM UTC
IMHO it was because of MacArthur's ego. Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong. But that's my opinion and 2 cents.
Folgore
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 02:53 AM UTC
Sorry, Steve, I don't know much at all about this topic, but I do agree with M1. Hadn't MacArthur promised his men in the Philippines that he would return?

Nic
Ranger74
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 04:32 AM UTC
I have to agree with the others. The Phillipines were a McArthur plan to save face, as he had promised that, "I shall return." There were Navy plans to bypass the Phillipines and invade Formosa - it would have made Okinawa and Iwo Jima look like neighborhood brawls, by comparison. Why invade Formosa? To cut off Japanese raw materials from their new colonies in East Indies. As it turned out the US "Silent Service" cut the supply line for a much lower cost than invading either the Phillipines or Formosa. Now the Philipines were a US 'Colony" and Philipinos had fought very well as part of the US and Phillkipine armies in initial defense - a political reason to invade.

As far as Iwo Jima - it was needed as a fighter base to escort B-29s to Japan and as an emergency field between the Marianas and Japan. The first damaged B-29 landed there while the Marines were still cleaning out the Japanese.

That my $.02
sgtreef
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 08:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I have to agree with the others. The Phillipines were a McArthur plan to save face, as he had promised that, "I shall return." There were Navy plans to bypass the Phillipines and invade Formosa - it would have made Okinawa and Iwo Jima look like neighborhood brawls, by comparison. Why invade Formosa? To cut off Japanese raw materials from their new colonies in East Indies. As it turned out the US "Silent Service" cut the supply line for a much lower cost than invading either the Phillipines or Formosa. Now the Philipines were a US 'Colony" and Philipinos had fought very well as part of the US and Phillkipine armies in initial defense - a political reason to invade.

As far as Iwo Jima - it was needed as a fighter base to escort B-29s to Japan and as an emergency field between the Marianas and Japan. The first damaged B-29 landed there while the Marines were still cleaning out the Japanese.

That my $.02



You are one studying dude Ranger did you get a master in this party hat on
Sabot
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 11:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Why, in 1944 after the Marianas campaign, did the U.S. invade the Philippines to the South instead of continuing North East toward Iwo Jima and eventually the Japanese home islands?


The lives of many of the former Bataan defenders were saved by the invasion. If the island was bypassed, many more of the prisoners-of-war would have perished. As it was, many were just abandoned in their remote jungle prisons by their Japanese captors. If the island was cut off from resupply, the Japanese may have just executed the prisoners or let them starve to death.
sniper
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 11:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text


The lives of many of the former Bataan defenders were saved by the invasion. If the island was bypassed, many more of the prisoners-of-war would have perished. As it was, many were just abandoned in their remote jungle prisons by their Japanese captors. If the island was cut off from resupply, the Japanese may have just executed the prisoners or let them starve to death.



True, but wasn't Iwo costly? Would the numbers of prisoners saved have equaled those killed on a re-inforced Iwo?

You guys are correct about MacArthur, but do you think he alone had enough influence to stop progression (temporarily) from the Japanese home islands?

The Roosevelt and MacArthur families in NY had close ties.

Steve
Ranger74
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 11:25 PM UTC
McArthur had the influence to affect his theater (SW Pacific). He wanted to go to the Philipines to keep his word, and as Sabot states, soldiers that he had commanded were still POWs in the islands, which may have added additional urgency to his return. It was the Navy that wanted McArhtur to go to Formosa in ths interest of enforcing the blockade on the Home Islands. The Central Paciifc theater, under ADM Nimitz was still progressing along their island hopping campaign thru the Marianas then turning North towards Japan. Whether McArthur invaded the Phillipines or Formosa had no real affect on Central Pacific drive, although the Naval battles around the Philipines wouldn't have taken place. Where the Japanese Navy would have made its last major appearance is then speculation - The Battle of the Formosa Straits?
sniper
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 11:38 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The Central Paciifc theater, under ADM Nimitz was still progressing along their island hopping campaign thru the Marianas then turning North towards Japan. Whether McArthur invaded the Phillipines or Formosa had no real affect on Central Pacific drive, although the Naval battles around the Philipines wouldn't have taken place.



I disagree only to say that the move to the Phillipines halted the drive in the central Pacific for 8 months. This gave the Japanese time to fortify Iwo.

There's a great book by Subaru Sakai called "Samurai" that talks about this. He was an aviator stationed on Iwo and after the Marianas fell they were sure they were goners because there was no one left on Iwo.

The Japanese Navy talks at lenght about this in their official reports about the war.

Steve
Ranger74
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Posted: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 12:26 AM UTC
Ahhhhhh!!!!!!!! The Sniper got me right between the eyes!!!!

Just funnin #:-)
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 01:03 AM UTC

Quoted Text


OK, here's a 'what if.'

Why, in 1944 after the Marianas campaign, did the U.S. invade the Philippines to the South instead of continuing North East toward Iwo Jima and eventually the Japanese home islands?

The eight month delay in going after Iwo allowed the Japanese to build tremendous defenses and reinforce the island.

Now what's interesting here are not only the military questions but also the political ones; the relationship between the MacArthurs and the Roosevelts, the fact that it was an election year (yup, no assurances of who would be voted in or out), etc.

The Japanese Navy has said this was a big U.S. blunder. Certainly the Iwo campaign was bloody when it happened in '45. What was gained by invading the Philippines? What if they had been bypassed.

I take no responsibility for what happened either way. I ask not because I agree or disagree with what happened and therefore cannot be changed.

Steve



Can we take a step back for a moment? Let's start with an overview of what is going on in the Pacific. To say the least the strategy for the Pacific campaign is not a easy one to tackle. There are all the elements present that make any coherent strategy difficult to enact. This is what our good old friend Clausewitz describes as the friction of war. Which is to say, the internal meshing that sometimes grinds things to a halt. The Navy has a clear plan for getting to the ultimate objective---Japan itself. They are going to go up the chain of islands starting with the Gilberts then the Marshalls, and then the Marianas. They will culminate by seizing Formosa. Makes a great deal of sense. Now, enter the Army in the form of General MacArthur. In a nut shell, he drives through New Guinea and up the chain leading to the Philippines. He gets to Moratai about 600 miles from his goal when Nimitz and he meet with Roosevelt in Hawaii in early 1944. Critical meeting. As one of my fellow contributors pointed out, it is an election year. Roosevelt wants to be seen as a hands on president. When MacArthur briefs him on the emotional need to re capture American territory and free long suffering people from oppression, his argument resonates better than Nimitz's argument for Formosa. You can also say that the Philippine invasion causes the IJN to do their last foray during the invasion of Luzon and the Battle of Leyete Gulf, but that was never foreseen. So, the Navy now is forced to re think where to go from the Marianas. The logical next step seize Okinawa. In the meantime the air campaign against Japan gains momentum with the arrival of the B-29. The capture of Iwo will greatly assist their efforts. So in February of 1945 the 3rd, 4th, and 5th Marine Divisions head for Iwo while the 1st, 2nd and 6th Marine Divisions go to Okinawa in April of 1945. Mac is still in the Phillipines at war's end in August of '45.
My 2 cents for the day.
DJ
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Posted: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 01:49 AM UTC
A battle in the Formosa straights would have had decent air cover from the surrounding Japanese territories. Kamakazes would have been there in numbers protecting the remnants of their fleet. The possible loss of US ships may have been much higher than they were.
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 03:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text

A battle in the Formosa straights would have had decent air cover from the surrounding Japanese territories. Kamakazes would have been there in numbers protecting the remnants of their fleet. The possible loss of US ships may have been much higher than they were.



Rob--good point. The Japanese initially used the Kamikazes in the Philippines and there effect was disorientating to say the least.
DJ
Cob
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Posted: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 04:22 AM UTC
US plans for an invasion of Formosa invisioned taking and holding the southern half of the island only. There were no decent harbor and deep water port facilities on the island and therefore plans to take and hold Amoy on the mainland were included. The problem here is that even if the plan works, the Japanese still hold the North half of the island with airfields and can move reenforcements at will onto the island. Additionally, they can easily reposition forces on the mainland to retake the port of Amoy which would leave the Allies without a supply route.
I don't think the decision to invade Formosa or The Phillipines was drawn along service lines (Army/Navy). Most of the Joint Chiefs, Nimitz and MacAurther agreed that the Southern portion (Leyte,Mindanao)of the Phillipines would have to be taken first. The question was, should the next move be Formosa or Luzon. One of the reasons the Phillipines were chosen is the fact that the allied knew they could count on the populace to support them.
Some actually advocated bypassing both and just assaulting Japan but logistics didn't support that idea.
Bottom line of my ramblings is that the way I see it, Iwo Jima wasn't really being discussed at this point ('43-'44) - the choices were Luzon or Formosa.
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 07:55 PM UTC

Quoted Text

US plans for an invasion of Formosa invisioned taking and holding the southern half of the island only. There were no decent harbor and deep water port facilities on the island and therefore plans to take and hold Amoy on the mainland were included. The problem here is that even if the plan works, the Japanese still hold the North half of the island with airfields and can move reenforcements at will onto the island. Additionally, they can easily reposition forces on the mainland to retake the port of Amoy which would leave the Allies without a supply route.
I don't think the decision to invade Formosa or The Phillipines was drawn along service lines (Army/Navy). Most of the Joint Chiefs, Nimitz and MacAurther agreed that the Southern portion (Leyte,Mindanao)of the Phillipines would have to be taken first. The question was, should the next move be Formosa or Luzon. One of the reasons the Phillipines were chosen is the fact that the allied knew they could count on the populace to support them.
Some actually advocated bypassing both and just assaulting Japan but logistics didn't support that idea.
Bottom line of my ramblings is that the way I see it, Iwo Jima wasn't really being discussed at this point ('43-'44) - the choices were Luzon or Formosa.



COB---that is an insightful analysis. I would only say that most of my reading emphasize the interservice rivalry aspects. However, no where have I read what the plan for invading Formosa intended to do. Can you direct me onto a reading that addresses the plan for invasion of Formosa? I'd like to explore it and see if it challenges other thoughts I have on the Pacific campaigns.
thanks
DJ
Cob
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Posted: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 10:43 PM UTC
DJ,

I have found a lot of good info at the Center for Military History. Here is a link within that site to a good article with some insight on planning. https://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/brochures/luzon/72-28.htm ( I'm not sure if I got the hyperlink thing right - can you tell I'm not too comfortable with computers?) The writing can be a little dry, but there is less author opinion and more fact.
By the way, thanks for posing these questions. It's good to think outside the box now and then.
v/r,
Cob
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 11:26 PM UTC

Quoted Text

DJ,

I have found a lot of good info at the Center for Military History. Here is a link within that site to a good article with some insight on planning. https://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/brochures/luzon/72-28.htm ( I'm not sure if I got the hyperlink thing right - can you tell I'm not too comfortable with computers?) The writing can be a little dry, but there is less author opinion and more fact.
By the way, thanks for posing these questions. It's good to think outside the box now and then.
v/r,
Cob



COB---I definitely want to check out the site. Appreciate your forwarding it. I am also going to lauch an effort to see what the Marine Historical Branch has on the subject. Recently, for example, I went over to the Washington Navy Yard and received from them the staff analysis for the invasion of Betio in the Tarawa Atoll. Fantastic staff work. Very detailed and exacting. I am hoping to expand my knowledge of what I all too often just blow off as a Army vs Navy battle regarding the invasion of Formosa. Should be interesting.
Thanks again
DJ
Ranger74
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Posted: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 11:35 PM UTC
DJ,

QUOTE: //The logical next step seize Okinawa. In the meantime the air campaign against Japan gains momentum with the arrival of the B-29. The capture of Iwo will greatly assist their efforts. So in February of 1945 the 3rd, 4th, and 5th Marine Divisions head for Iwo while the 1st, 2nd and 6th Marine Divisions go to Okinawa in April of 1945. Mac is still in the Phillipines at war's end in August of '45.// END QOUTE (sorry haven't figured all this stuff out yet)

Propaganda Mode: ON

I don't want to get too parochial, but we are both US Army, and you are giving the Marines all the credit for Okinawa. The landing force, under command of 6th Army, consisted of 1st, 2nd, & 6th Marine Divisions, but also 7th, 96th, 27th, 77th & 81st Infantry Divisions. The preparatory securing of the Kerama Islands, for an achorage, was secured by an Army unit (77th Infantry Div), and the Okinawa assualt force consisted of two Marine and two Army Divisions

Sorry, had to vent. I've had to listen to too many people that don't even know that the Army was in the Pacific War, or that the Army's only participation was the loss of the Philipines and then the Marines saved the day. The US Army still has more wartime amphibious landings than the Marines.

Propaganda mode: OFF

Besides I like Marines: They give the Sailors somebody to dance with Sorry, just had to do that #:-)
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 01:13 AM UTC
Sir--you are absolutely correct on the composition of the force. I shall proceed to perform 25 push-ups as appropriate punishment.
GO ARMY!
DJ
Cob
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 03:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

don't want to get too parochial, but we are both US Army, and you are giving the Marines all the credit for Okinawa. The landing force, under command of 6th Army, consisted of 1st, 2nd, & 6th Marine Divisions, but also 7th, 96th, 27th, 77th & 81st Infantry Divisions. The preparatory securing of the Kerama Islands, for an achorage, was secured by an Army unit (77th Infantry Div), and the Okinawa assualt force consisted of two Marine and two Army Divisions

Sorry, had to vent. I've had to listen to too many people that don't even know that the Army was in the Pacific War, or that the Army's only participation was the loss of the Philipines and then the Marines saved the day. The US Army still has more wartime amphibious landings than the Marines



Ranger,
I don't know if any Marines are on this site, but you are certainly going to find out now
Next you'll claim that the Army has more ships than the Navy! :-)

Cob
sniper
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 03:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text




Next you'll claim that the Army has more ships than the Navy! :-)

Cob



I thought they did. Well boats anyway...

Steve
Cob
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 03:45 AM UTC
They do. Truth is strtanger than fiction.

Cob
Ranger74
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 04:12 AM UTC
DJ - I kinda cheated: I have the entire US Army Official History of WW2, plus most of the other publications from Chief, Military History (see how the Army Historian calls himself THE "CHIEF OF [b]MILITARYb] HISTORY", the Army was here first, so I guess he had first dibs on the title), sitting in the outer office of the command suite.

Cob - Company I, 3rd Battalion, 24th MARINES, 4th Marine Division (USMCR), occupies the first building here at my reserve center, and they like me (I give them air conditioning in the Summer and heat in the Winter), so I''m not afraid of the rest of the Marine Corps At least not while I'm in my office!
Cob
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 05:47 AM UTC
Ranger,
Q: What does Marine stands for ?

A: My A** Rides In Navy Equipment :-) :-) :-)

Cob
Ranger74
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 09:56 AM UTC
I have heard that. :-)