This is a good topic DJ.
There are many thing's that we can point out that "would of " - "shoud of " - & "could of "
been done. I'll take a shot at a few facts of why the German's didn't achieve victory here.
First we all know that the battles that raged inside the factories and building's....especially
in the Dzerzhinsky ( I think that's the right spelling ) Tractor Factory ....Barrikady Ordnance Factory ...and the Red October Steelworks in the idustrial heart of Stalingrad were of some
of the most fanatical and bloodied fighting of W.W.II itself.
But Hitler was obsessed with taking Stalingrad, not only because it was Stalin's city, but
the victory would show the superior racial quality of the Aryan race over the Slavic race.
Also Hitler was a freaking madman ! .......and wanted thing's done his way denying his Generals tactical flexibility, that they were so intune with ............while Stalin gave his commanders the freedom of using their military tactic's in battle as they deemed &
saw neccessary.
- Another thing was....though the Germans were a very formidable opponent, the Russians
had a great asset in the Volga River, and the thousand's of ton's of ammo, food, and men
that were bought across by Adm. Rogachev's naval flotilla of 100's of small civialian boats
of all kind's..........even though they were fiercly hampered by the luftwaffe, they persisited !
The luftwaffe had superiority at Stalingrad, but just couldn't close the Volga.....
....nor could they break or defeat the landing point's along the shore that were so crucial
in supplying and sustaining the Russian 62nd Army.
This all went on for too long ....back and forth.....the Russians attacked and pushed back
....the germans with their superior and "well know for " counterattack's took back lost
ground and building's.
I mean Wermacht div's such as 14 .- 16. - and 24 Panzer...... 71. - 94. - 295. - 389.Infantry Divs' ............and 100.Jager Division made short work out of alot of Russian div's, but
the Russaina's kept coming and were getting more experience in battle.
Everytime the German's made an effort to try to move up the bank's of the Volga....the Russian's threw everything at them.....and though again the Russian losses were immense....they stopped this German threat !
The German's just could not encircle the Russians at Stalingrad.....and with the unending
suppy of men and resources included............THE VOLGA IS WHY !
The more time that went by...the weaker 6.German Army & 4.Panzer Army became....and the stronger the Russian Army got !
The Russians had taken everything that the German's could throw at them, and survived !
Once Op.Uranus struck and the Russians were encircling 6th Army it was all over.
-The Luftwaffe and Goring couldn't fullfill thery're promise and get supplies through, for
lack of bad weather, lack of transport aircraft, airfields, and Russian AA defences.
- They all ( especially the "little freaking corporal " ) should have listened to Von Manstein,
...for Paulus to breakout of the pocket before the Russian grip tighted , but no ....Hitler
demanded Paulus to establish a defensive perimeter, and wait to be relieved .............
........well if that ain't a KICK IN THE HEAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DJ.....you ask what we would have done ?
- What could the German's possibly do against an endless supply of million's of men, ammo and weapons and an industructable barrier of nature to support them ?????????
.......They should of got out when in Sept. Paulus threw eleven divison's at the industrial center of Stalingrad ( the Tractor Factory - Barrikady - Red October - etc ) and though Russian losses were again immense.............they still held the Volga and kept on coming.
THE GERMAN'S COULD HAVE SAVED MORE THAN 90,000 MEN OF 6.ARMY & 4.PANZER ARMY FOR DEFENSE OF THERE REICH..........AND EVEN KURSK !
.............just my thought's & opinion's.
- ralph

Quoted Text

---

This is a good topic DJ.
There are many thing's that we can point out that "would of " - "shoud of " - & "could of "
been done. I'll take a shot at a few facts of why the German's didn't achieve victory here.
First we all know that the battles that raged inside the factories and building's....especially
in the Dzerzhinsky ( I think that's the right spelling ) Tractor Factory ....Barrikady Ordnance Factory ...and the Red October Steelworks in the idustrial heart of Stalingrad were of some
of the most fanatical and bloodied fighting of W.W.II itself.
But Hitler was obsessed with taking Stalingrad, not only because it was Stalin's city, but
the victory would show the superior racial quality of the Aryan race over the Slavic race.
Also Hitler was a freaking madman ! .......and wanted thing's done his way denying his Generals tactical flexibility, that they were so intune with ............while Stalin gave his commanders the freedom of using their military tactic's in battle as they deemed &
saw neccessary.
- Another thing was....though the Germans were a very formidable opponent, the Russians
had a great asset in the Volga River, and the thousand's of ton's of ammo, food, and men
that were bought across by Adm. Rogachev's naval flotilla of 100's of small civialian boats
of all kind's..........even though they were fiercly hampered by the luftwaffe, they persisited !
The luftwaffe had superiority at Stalingrad, but just couldn't close the Volga.....
....nor could they break or defeat the landing point's along the shore that were so crucial
in supplying and sustaining the Russian 62nd Army.
This all went on for too long ....back and forth.....the Russians attacked and pushed back
....the germans with their superior and "well know for " counterattack's took back lost
ground and building's.
I mean Wermacht div's such as 14 .- 16. - and 24 Panzer...... 71. - 94. - 295. - 389.Infantry Divs' ............and 100.Jager Division made short work out of alot of Russian div's, but
the Russaina's kept coming and were getting more experience in battle.
Everytime the German's made an effort to try to move up the bank's of the Volga....the Russian's threw everything at them.....and though again the Russian losses were immense....they stopped this German threat !
The German's just could not encircle the Russians at Stalingrad.....and with the unending
suppy of men and resources included............THE VOLGA IS WHY !
The more time that went by...the weaker 6.German Army & 4.Panzer Army became....and the stronger the Russian Army got !
The Russians had taken everything that the German's could throw at them, and survived !
Once Op.Uranus struck and the Russians were encircling 6th Army it was all over.
-The Luftwaffe and Goring couldn't fullfill thery're promise and get supplies through, for
lack of bad weather, lack of transport aircraft, airfields, and Russian AA defences.
- They all ( especially the "little freaking corporal " ) should have listened to Von Manstein,
...for Paulus to breakout of the pocket before the Russian grip tighted , but no ....Hitler
demanded Paulus to establish a defensive perimeter, and wait to be relieved .............
........well if that ain't a KICK IN THE HEAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DJ.....you ask what we would have done ?
- What could the German's possibly do against an endless supply of million's of men, ammo and weapons and an industructable barrier of nature to support them ?????????
.......They should of got out when in Sept. Paulus threw eleven divison's at the industrial center of Stalingrad ( the Tractor Factory - Barrikady - Red October - etc ) and though Russian losses were again immense.............they still held the Volga and kept on coming.
THE GERMAN'S COULD HAVE SAVED MORE THAN 90,000 MEN OF 6.ARMY & 4.PANZER ARMY FOR DEFENSE OF THERE REICH..........AND EVEN KURSK !
.............just my thought's & opinion's.
- ralph

---

Very good Ralph!! 100% agreement with you on this. After reading Hell at the Gates many a time and seeing the movie which was half truth but still good as to the way it was. Did not the Russians loose like about 1,000,000 civilians alone at Stalingrad. DJ on by-passing the city I don' t think this would of worked look at Lenigrad 900 day siege. Yes on the wave upon wave idea good ,the Germans would kill them all in the day and at morning they were back again this time more of them. Fighting for one floor and having Russians on the upper and the floor below you wild is all I can say. But I still think it comes down to the flanks falling in and them becoming encircled. With no supplies and the Russians getting supplies every night even with loses they still got them. You know that the German Army lost 1/3 of their equiptment at Stalingrad wonder why they lost could never recover this and Troops lost.

my 1/2 cent


Good post DJ

Quoted Text

---

Quoted Text

---

This is a good topic DJ.
There are many thing's that we can point out that "would of " - "shoud of " - & "could of "
been done. I'll take a shot at a few facts of why the German's didn't achieve victory here.
First we all know that the battles that raged inside the factories and building's....especially
in the Dzerzhinsky ( I think that's the right spelling ) Tractor Factory ....Barrikady Ordnance Factory ...and the Red October Steelworks in the idustrial heart of Stalingrad were of some
of the most fanatical and bloodied fighting of W.W.II itself.
But Hitler was obsessed with taking Stalingrad, not only because it was Stalin's city, but
the victory would show the superior racial quality of the Aryan race over the Slavic race.
Also Hitler was a freaking madman ! .......and wanted thing's done his way denying his Generals tactical flexibility, that they were so intune with ............while Stalin gave his commanders the freedom of using their military tactic's in battle as they deemed &
saw neccessary.
- Another thing was....though the Germans were a very formidable opponent, the Russians
had a great asset in the Volga River, and the thousand's of ton's of ammo, food, and men
that were bought across by Adm. Rogachev's naval flotilla of 100's of small civialian boats
of all kind's..........even though they were fiercly hampered by the luftwaffe, they persisited !
The luftwaffe had superiority at Stalingrad, but just couldn't close the Volga.....
....nor could they break or defeat the landing point's along the shore that were so crucial
in supplying and sustaining the Russian 62nd Army.
This all went on for too long ....back and forth.....the Russians attacked and pushed back
....the germans with their superior and "well know for " counterattack's took back lost
ground and building's.
I mean Wermacht div's such as 14 .- 16. - and 24 Panzer...... 71. - 94. - 295. - 389.Infantry Divs' ............and 100.Jager Division made short work out of alot of Russian div's, but
the Russaina's kept coming and were getting more experience in battle.
Everytime the German's made an effort to try to move up the bank's of the Volga....the Russian's threw everything at them.....and though again the Russian losses were immense....they stopped this German threat !
The German's just could not encircle the Russians at Stalingrad.....and with the unending
suppy of men and resources included............THE VOLGA IS WHY !
The more time that went by...the weaker 6.German Army & 4.Panzer Army became....and the stronger the Russian Army got !
The Russians had taken everything that the German's could throw at them, and survived !
Once Op.Uranus struck and the Russians were encircling 6th Army it was all over.
-The Luftwaffe and Goring couldn't fullfill thery're promise and get supplies through, for
lack of bad weather, lack of transport aircraft, airfields, and Russian AA defences.
- They all ( especially the "little freaking corporal " ) should have listened to Von Manstein,
...for Paulus to breakout of the pocket before the Russian grip tighted , but no ....Hitler
demanded Paulus to establish a defensive perimeter, and wait to be relieved .............
........well if that ain't a KICK IN THE HEAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DJ.....you ask what we would have done ?
- What could the German's possibly do against an endless supply of million's of men, ammo and weapons and an industructable barrier of nature to support them ?????????
.......They should of got out when in Sept. Paulus threw eleven divison's at the industrial center of Stalingrad ( the Tractor Factory - Barrikady - Red October - etc ) and though Russian losses were again immense.............they still held the Volga and kept on coming.
THE GERMAN'S COULD HAVE SAVED MORE THAN 90,000 MEN OF 6.ARMY & 4.PANZER ARMY FOR DEFENSE OF THERE REICH..........AND EVEN KURSK !
.............just my thought's & opinion's.
- ralph

---

Very good Ralph!! 100% agreement with you on this. After reading Hell at the Gates many a time and seeing the movie which was half truth but still good as to the way it was. Did not the Russians loose like about 1,000,000 civilians alone at Stalingrad. DJ on by-passing the city I don' t think this would of worked look at Lenigrad 900 day siege. Yes on the wave upon wave idea good ,the Germans would kill them all in the day and at morning they were back again this time more of them. Fighting for one floor and having Russians on the upper and the floor below you wild is all I can say. But I still think it comes down to the flanks falling in and them becoming encircled. With no supplies and the Russians getting supplies every night even with loses they still got them. You know that the German Army lost 1/3 of their equiptment at Stalingrad wonder why they lost could never recover this and Troops lost.

my 1/2 cent


Good post DJ

---

Ralph/Jeff---Am I correct in summarizing your input as follows? One, Germans could not by-pass Stalingrad. The major natural obstacle, the Volga River, flowed to the rear or eastern portion of Stalingrad. Th cross this significant river, the Germans would have had to amass a significant amount of bridging and related resources. The logistical system could not establish and sustain this type of diversion of material. Second, Paulus should have been given permission in September to withdraw to a more defensible position and await resupply. Let me know if I have that right.
Follow-on question: if Paulus withdrew in September as you suggest, when and where should he has been directed to proceed once re supplied?
thanks
DJ

Interesting conversation!
Sorry to go off-topic ( #:-) ) but what kind of Stalingrad dioramas or figure vignettes have been done? Pics, links?


Just have a cold picture developing in my head...

Toni

Several unanswered questions in this stream:

Could Stalingrad been blockaded? Yes, they could have crossed the Volga above (North) of Stalingrad and probably south also. They chose to use the river as flank security, but used there weaker allies to secure the flanks north & south of the Six Army. The Germans could still out manuever the Russians in the open, but they were sucked into the city where they lost there superior manueverability. The bigger question though, is why go after Stalingrad at all! More later.

Why did the German armies in the Caucasus not cross the Volga? The Volga enters the Caspian Sea at the Sea's northern tip in a large delta. The Germans in the Caucasus were after the oil fields along the west shore of the Caspian Sea and were headed away from the Volga.

Why did the Russians not cut-off the Germans in the Caucasus? The Soviets first had to stop to digest the Stalingrad pocket and protect against 4th Panzer Army's relief effort before they could move on. They temporarily seized Rostov, the only crossing points out of the Caucasus for the Germans. But one of the best counter offensives of the war, led by Field Marshal Manstein, pushed the Russians back from Rostov and allowed the Army Group Caucasus to escape.

IF the Germans had built a strategic air force to complement their tactical air force they could have blockaded Stalingrad and severely damaged the masses of supplies and troops collected on the east bank of the Volga, among other things. But they did not have the forsight, like the US & Britain to think strategically in the air.

Now what would I have done instead of the southern campaign or have done differently in the south. Based on "tests" among I and some friends using board games we discovored and tested several alternatives.

First the Germans really only have sufficient first-line forces for one major offensive, they tries to lay seige to Leningrad and attack in the south the second summer. If attacking in the south you can only go up against one objective: Stalingrad and/or the Caucasus. I have found my self sucked into the vacumn of the Caucasus, but you have to resist. Once you reach the Volga, you need to blockade Stalingrad on the west side and obliterate the city so it can't be used for production or as a beachhead for a breakout. Artillery and bombers could keep the city rubbled sufficiently to block massed counterattacks. Next wall off the Caucasus with mobile defense. If the Volga is secured, the Russians don't have enough armored forces to be a major threat.

BUT, what we found to be the best strategy, in our opinions, for the second summer was to use the forces spent in south to seize Leningrad, Murmansk and completly secure the northern flank, significantly shortening the German lines, freeing top quality troops.

Just some more fuel for the fire


I need to claim an alibi: I have a bad sinus infection and am suffering from vertigo, so my thinking is a little off. The best strategy we developed for invading Russia in JUN 41 and avoiding Stalingrad in 42-43 was to concentrate the initial invasion in the North, securing Leningrad and Murmansk in 1941. Moscow would then be the major objective for Summer 42, with supporting attacks in the South. I hope I am making sense through my brain's current haze

I stand corrected out of 400,000 civilians only a total of 283 were found alive but most died latter on so that brings the total of civilians to 400,000 still a bunch for such a short period of time. That is about as many as we lost in the whole war is it not? What a waste one of them might have found the cure for cancer or something along those lines

Good job DJ and Ranger.
Keep it up