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Events & Shows: North America
Shows and events in North America.
Amp East 04 Photos
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 09:01 PM UTC
So as not to use too much of my gallery space here at Armorama, I'm posting the photos of AmpEast 2004 at my MSN site. It will take me a few days to get them posted.
http://groups.msn.com/MilitaryMiniaturist
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 03:11 AM UTC
Good pic, Dave. Nice meeting you anf Pvt Parts on Saturday. Ron, the guy with the long blond hair who came up wioth me took a silver in intermediate figures for his Crom, the 25 mm creature thing. I managed to get a gold for my Apache in advanced figures. Ah, the vagaries of judging! The week before, Billy the Kid took a second to Ron's Anglo Saxon Knight which did not medal on Saturday and the Apache did nothing. Ya nevver know how it's going to go.
PvtParts
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Posted: Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 04:02 AM UTC
Dave, Looks just like alot of the builds I saw Yesterday Al it was nice meeting you also, Congrads on your gold and pass on my congrads to Ron.
MLD
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Posted: Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 07:21 AM UTC
I've got a few pics of other entries, but they're on film and will have to go into my gallery.
Later this week prob.

I saw AJ but missed PVtparts and Grumpy.

Fun show, but how did they manage not to give ANY intermediate golds???

I was there with a friend who entered the bulldozer, it had scored well enough to earn an advanced gold at Harve de Grace last spring, but was outscored by his other entry in the same class. Sat he got a silver...

Mike
cdave
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Posted: Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 07:49 AM UTC
Hey guys,

Sorry I did not meet up with any of ya. Was busy with a few things.

Mike, what Olaf told me about the indtermediate Golds (lack of) was that no-one got within the top percentile. They went strickly on points and did not judge on a curve.

I took a silver though.....

Dave
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 10:05 AM UTC
Good meeting you too Al, and sorry I missed everyone else.....
Been several years since I went to a show, due to work, hopefully I'll make a few more before the grim reaper shows up. Hopefully I'll get to build those kits I bought after making PvtParts walk 5 miles up hill barfooted in the snow to the cash machine.
Thanks for driving John, I enjoyed sleeping on the drive home..... LOL :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
I also ran into one of my old fraternity brother from college days at the show.......

How could anyone miss me, in my lovely red evening gown, and black pumps....... LOL LMAO
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 07:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text


How could anyone miss me, in my lovely red evening gown, and black pumps....... LOL LMAO



Yes, I can attest that Dave's hairy cleavage was really quite stunning! His next gig is sure to be as a repalcement for Tyra Banks. :-)
MLD
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Posted: Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 11:28 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hey guys,

Mike, what Olaf told me about the indtermediate Golds (lack of) was that no-one got within the top percentile. They went strickly on points and did not judge on a curve.

I took a silver though.....

Dave



Dave,
Congratulations. What level and which kit was yours?
I am not disagreeing with the 'no curve' idea. As a teacher, we are moving toward an era of kids work compared to a standard and not to other kid's work (curves), so I am on board with that.

Just noticing that the bulldozer that scored highly enough to get an advanced gold in Md last srping got a mid-silver at AMPS East and of all the entries there were NO intermediate golds. The kit I got a bronze with at AMPS east last spring, scored much higher in MD as well.

That being my experience for the last 2 yrs, it seems like the judges are a bit more strict at AMPS East.

Mike
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Monday, September 27, 2004 - 12:58 AM UTC
AMPS has predetermined, and published, scores for each award level. There were at least three teams of four judging. (Yes, I was commandeered into one of them.) Each team worked independently, so there'd be no way to know how the scores were stacking up in the next team.
As we were presented a model, we'd examine and discuss it. Each judge then assigned point levels for various skills, assembly, running gear, markings, research and accuracy, finish, etc. to a total of up to 10 points each. The low score was dropped and the leader tallied the score. We were also instructed to expect more from an advanced builder than from an intermediate level builder. The only issue I have with their system is that beginner level modelers can get no better than bronze. But it's the rule and it's published, so the entrant SHOULD know going in what the deal is.
Also, in the AMPS system, once you get gold in intermediate you move up to advanced.
MLD
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Posted: Monday, September 27, 2004 - 02:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

AMPS has predetermined, and published, scores for each award level. There were at least three teams of four judging. (Yes, I was commandeered into one of them.) Each team worked independently, so there'd be no way to know how the scores were stacking up in the next team.
As we were presented a model, we'd examine and discuss it. Each judge then assigned point levels for various skills, assembly, running gear, markings, research and accuracy, finish, etc. to a total of up to 10 points each. The low score was dropped and the leader tallied the score. We were also instructed to expect more from an advanced builder than from an intermediate level builder. The only issue I have with their system is that beginner level modelers can get no better than bronze. But it's the rule and it's published, so the entrant SHOULD know going in what the deal is.
Also, in the AMPS system, once you get gold in intermediate you move up to advanced.



That was one of the things we talked about on the drive home, all the judging teams working independentlyof each other produced no golds out of all the intermediate entries. They were consistant across all the different judging tables and all the shifts.

I was under the impression that the promotion to Advanced was ONLY for scoring an intermediate gold at the National show however.

I do know the judging criteria, and for the most part agree with them. I think it is the best system out there, but it is by no means perfect. I do feel the AMPS system is too heavily weighted toward the 'throw the kitchen sink at the base model' mentality in the vehicle building and judging.

I am not yet an expert in the AMPS judging system, and due to work scheduling I am not able to make it to the meetings in Md that take place before 1am on the Saturday of the show. It's 8+ hours to drive from VT, leaving when the school bell rings at 3. But I am familiar with the system from the inside.
I have judged at the national show in April and would have judged Sat. if we had arrived early enough.
The judging team I sat on in April was not terribly specific about the Intermediate vs Advanced expectations and which infractions were worth how much of a point.

So I guess my point is that even as good as the defined AMPS system is, it has some 'human factor' wiggle room built into it.

Just an observation from where I am sitting.

I'm just happy I got the kit built in time for the show. As of last Sunday evening, it needed a fair amount of work.

Mike
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Monday, September 27, 2004 - 03:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text


I was under the impression that the promotion to Advanced was ONLY for scoring an intermediate gold at the National show however.
Mike



I'm basing that on what I, and several guys from Bay Colony were told last year when we were awarded intermediate golds at this show. In any case, I waent home happy.
gcdavidson
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Posted: Monday, September 27, 2004 - 09:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text

We were also instructed to expect more from an advanced builder than from an intermediate level builder.



To me this is the biggest flaw in the current AMPS judging. Having judged at the national convention, I found it difficult to remain consistant in my scoring by having to mentally change gears between my adv/int/novice criterion.

FOR EXAMPLE ONLY, a kit comes across the table and a roadwheel is not touching. Does this count as a strike in intermediate? no? What about advanced? Take a point off now? And so on for the myriad of other details that are considered when judging a model.

There is a solution though, one that I've seen work in Montreal that allows judges to remain consistent throughout their duties.

Basically, it works like a golf handicap, only instead of strokes, you get points. Novice get say 6, Intermediate 3 and Advanced 0. The judge can then examine ever kit to an "advanced" standard (or "par for the course"). The novice model may end up with a seemingly poor score of 10/20, but when the handicap is factored in, a 16/20 might result in a medal.

For your consideration.
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Monday, September 27, 2004 - 10:41 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

We were also instructed to expect more from an advanced builder than from an intermediate level builder.



To me this is the biggest flaw in the current AMPS judging. Having judged at the national convention, I found it difficult to remain consistant in my scoring by having to mentally change gears between my adv/int/novice criterion.

FOR EXAMPLE ONLY, a kit comes across the table and a roadwheel is not touching. Does this count as a strike in intermediate? no? What about advanced? Take a point off now? And so on for the myriad of other details that are considered when judging a model.

There is a solution though, one that I've seen work in Montreal that allows judges to remain consistent throughout their duties.

Basically, it works like a golf handicap, only instead of strokes, you get points. Novice get say 6, Intermediate 3 and Advanced 0. The judge can then examine ever kit to an "advanced" standard (or "par for the course"). The novice model may end up with a seemingly poor score of 10/20, but when the handicap is factored in, a 16/20 might result in a medal.

For your consideration.



You are probably right. Either use a handicap or set the bar higher as you progress through the system. Allow the judges to score each model as they see fit on the table then have the guy at the computer set the medal level based on the score, with requirements being greater the higher your level is.
For the record, I'm not an AMPS member. This was my third AMPS event and the second time I judged using this system though I've been judging over 20 years using IPMS standards and varitions on that theme.
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Monday, September 27, 2004 - 10:44 AM UTC
LOL.... now I'm happy all I did was take photos.......and spend money........ LOL :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

Posted some more photos. 9-28-04
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