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Nuremberg Trials
210cav
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Posted: Monday, August 12, 2002 - 03:21 AM UTC
Following the conclusion of hostilities in Europe, the victors decide to place on trial various members of the German Government. Questions: was this the right thing to do? And, was it fairly done?
DJ
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Posted: Monday, August 12, 2002 - 06:24 AM UTC
Yes, it was a wake up call to the people. Let them see the punishment being metted out to their leaders. (no one was a Nazi, but their neighbor was). The war criminals came from the population, and the population supported their heroes. Any one who has ever visited a concentration camp will not belive that the townsfolk did not know what was going on. Prisoners came in, supplies and services came in, guards dated/socialized with the population as well as frequented the shops and stores.
210cav
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Posted: Monday, August 12, 2002 - 08:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Yes, it was a wake up call to the people. Let them see the punishment being metted out to their leaders. (no one was a Nazi, but their neighbor was). The war criminals came from the population, and the population supported their heroes. Any one who has ever visited a concentration camp will not belive that the townsfolk did not know what was going on. Prisoners came in, supplies and services came in, guards dated/socialized with the population as well as frequented the shops and stores.



Rob--can I infer that you believed the trials were fairly conducted even though no precedence existed for them?
DJ
SS-74
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Posted: Monday, August 12, 2002 - 09:43 AM UTC
To the victor goes the spoils. That's all I can say. Oh, there is also a Chinese saying that, the winner will become the king, and the loser will become the bandits...

Sancho0409
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Posted: Monday, August 12, 2002 - 11:18 AM UTC
There were no precedents for anything of that sort because nothing as outrageous as waht the Nazis did had ever happened in civilized times. Were there traffic laws before there were cars? No, its pretty much the same thing. There were also conducted fairly, because all of the testimonies given by the Germans were invalid, such as they being forced to do what they did be thier superiors, though in every German soldier field book it says that no soldier may commit an illegal act if ordered by a superior, or something to that effect, and other such cases.
TreadHead
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Posted: Monday, August 12, 2002 - 12:09 PM UTC

Quoted Text

..........There were no precedents for anything of that sort because nothing as outrageous as waht the Nazis did had ever happened in civilized times.....




I really don't want to disagree with you Sancho, but, hmmmm..........
TreadHead
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Posted: Monday, August 12, 2002 - 12:10 PM UTC
...maybe the combination of things......
Sabot
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Posted: Monday, August 12, 2002 - 06:36 PM UTC
Not everyone was hanged, many aquitted. It was a more just justice than what the Germans used during the Reich.
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 12:17 AM UTC
Well, it seems everone is in agreement that the trials were conducted in a fair manner. So, my next question is "should the trial have included the military leaders (Jodl and Keitel) both of whom are hung?"
DJ
Cob
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Posted: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 03:31 AM UTC
Of course. It's that "responsibility for what happens on my watch" thing. Voltaire once wrote, "It's good to kill an Admiral now and then...it encourages the others" or something to that effect. There was no real precedent for holding military leaders (of the losing side)accountable in a court of law. Because of Nuremburg, we have that precendent.
The next question might be, Why didn't the Allies apply the same standard to Japan ?
Folgore
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Posted: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 03:50 AM UTC
That's something I have wondered about myself, ever since I saw the movie Nuremberg on TV last year. I didn't think military leaders deserved to be hung for doing their jobs. What would have happened to Rommel if he had stayed loyal and survived the war? The foreign minister, Ribbentrop, was also convicted for his policies leading to war, I believe. I'm not sure I quite understand that. Even today, national interests come above the collective. They might as well have charged Daladier and Chamberlain for their policy of appeasement. Well, maybe not, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. From what I have seen from the more recent trials involving the former Yugoslavia, though, we have learned from the mistakes of Nuremberg.

Nic
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Posted: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 04:01 AM UTC
I guess that's what I'm trying to say. By holding the German Command responsible for the actions of the military, a precedent was set which has had some deterrent effect for the last 50 years. We have learned precisely because the trials were held.
penpen
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Posted: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 06:45 AM UTC
A common belief is that the wehrmacht only conducted military operations while the SS were responsible for all the horrors...
The wehrmacht did take part in the slaughter of prisoners and of civilian population.
Some soldiers did give the account of how they made firing plots for villagers. Such actions happenend on the eastern front, simply because people were supposed to be inferior . And you can't tell me : "it was war...", because the reason was political.
So should the military leaders be judged ? I'm glad they were !
But now my question is : why were so few judged ? Many criminals were left out of the trial, mainly those involved in intelligence bacause they were too useful for the beginning cold war.
Of course, it may seem unfair to see the winner judge the looser, but it was a real trial.

Also, there are many people I'd have liked to see judged : many japanese leaders... and on the winners side, many soviet leaders... and why not those responsible for the fire bombings of german and japanese population centers ?

Well, just a few thoughts...
sgtreef
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Posted: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

A common belief is that the wehrmacht only conducted military operations while the SS were responsible for all the horrors...
The wehrmacht did take part in the slaughter of prisoners and of civilian population.
Some soldiers did give the account of how they made firing plots for villagers. Such actions happenend on the eastern front, simply because people were supposed to be inferior . And you can't tell me : "it was war...", because the reason was political.
So should the military leaders be judged ? I'm glad they were !
But now my question is : why were so few judged ? Many criminals were left out of the trial, mainly those involved in intelligence bacause they were too useful for the beginning cold war.
Of course, it may seem unfair to see the winner judge the looser, but it was a real trial.

Also, there are many people I'd have liked to see judged : many japanese leaders... and on the winners side, many soviet leaders... and why not those responsible for the fire bombings of german and japanese population centers ?

Well, just a few thoughts...



If you want to put on trial the ones that Firebombed say Dresden that would be good ole uncle sugar
Sabot
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Posted: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 09:12 AM UTC
Remember, it was the Japanese and German forces that conducted war against US citizens (and other allied nations) first. Germans sunk US Merchant Marine shipping as well as Japanese sending rice paper ballons to attack the US mainland. And the US civilians (and any caucasians in the far east) were treated like prisoners of war, some tortured or killed.
SS-74
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Posted: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 12:08 PM UTC
Japanese war criminal were also trialed, Tiger of malay was hung because of the Rape of Nanking. However, I held a belief that in the time of war, the worst as well as the best of human nature were brought out, it served a mean to boost morale or strike terror in your enemy's heart. Bombing indiscrimanatly against enemy city, sinking merchant shippings, burn down a village, etc, etc, they were are terrible, but each nation claims it to be a way to win. German U-Boot arm sunk merchant shipping, so are the American silent services, anyone whom read some about the Sub warfare from both sides know that sinking merchant shipping is what it counts to control the sea lane. Warships are just shepherds, you want to get to the sheeps.

War is a terrible thing, those nazi leader whom conspirated for the holocust should be punished, but Military commanders were just following orders and made decision on the spot which served only one purpose that is to win. Unfortunately there is no black and white here, only gray...

Kill one person, you are a murder, kill one million and not get caught you are a conquerer and military genius. Sad but true.

210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 10:24 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Japanese war criminal were also trialed, Tiger of malay was hung because of the Rape of Nanking. However, I held a belief that in the time of war, the worst as well as the best of human nature were brought out, it served a mean to boost morale or strike terror in your enemy's heart. Bombing indiscrimanatly against enemy city, sinking merchant shippings, burn down a village, etc, etc, they were are terrible, but each nation claims it to be a way to win. German U-Boot arm sunk merchant shipping, so are the American silent services, anyone whom read some about the Sub warfare from both sides know that sinking merchant shipping is what it counts to control the sea lane. Warships are just shepherds, you want to get to the sheeps.

War is a terrible thing, those nazi leader whom conspirated for the holocust should be punished, but Military commanders were just following orders and made decision on the spot which served only one purpose that is to win. Unfortunately there is no black and white here, only gray...

Kill one person, you are a murder, kill one million and not get caught you are a conquerer and military genius. Sad but true.




If memory serves me correctly, General Yamashita (the Tiger of Malaya) was not hung for the Rape of Nanking. I do not think he was even there. Rather, he was in disgrace after the Malaysian campaign and held several sit around post until 1944 when he took over control of troops in the Philippines. He did extraordinararily well. He held out until the war ended. His subsequent trial centered on the actions of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force during their defense of Manila. They committed numerous atrocities for which (rightly or wrongly) Yamashita was held accountable.
DJ
Posted: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 12:02 AM UTC
no, they violated the rules of war. they were also a vendetta against the German people. the allies also covered up their war crimes: Japanese in American concentration camps, Russia's unlawful treatment of German POW's and British assassinations of German officers after the war(SOE agents weren't covered under the Geneva Convention). and the arbitrary executions of German POW's in the US. Don't use the Jewish killings as a example, the Russians butchered 3x as many people during the same time and i am sick to death of Allied hypocrisy and think that we should look at all the evil things we did to people in the so-called fight to save democracy. the bloody Russians came into Eastern Europe and subjugated all of that area and killed many pro-democratic people. so while the Nuremburg Trial are a fact of history, to me they were illegal and hypocritical.

Chris
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 03:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

no, they violated the rules of war. they were also a vendetta against the German people. the allies also covered up their war crimes: Japanese in American concentration camps, Russia's unlawful treatment of German POW's and British assassinations of German officers after the war(SOE agents weren't covered under the Geneva Convention). and the arbitrary executions of German POW's in the US. Don't use the Jewish killings as a example, the Russians butchered 3x as many people during the same time and i am sick to death of Allied hypocrisy and think that we should look at all the evil things we did to people in the so-called fight to save democracy. the bloody Russians came into Eastern Europe and subjugated all of that area and killed many pro-democratic people. so while the Nuremburg Trial are a fact of history, to me they were illegal and hypocritical.

Chris



Chris---we tried the defeated Germans because their officially sanctioned and condoned policies resulted in the deaths of millions. Read Shirer's "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" and especially the chapters on the Night and Fog decrees. These decress signed by Keitel and Jodl allowed the occupiers to literally seize anyone for any reason in order to create a level of fear in the people and thus limit their desire to organize and resist. It did not work, but a whole lot of people suffered. Need we discuss the Special Action Groups in Russia? Now, the United States did not pursue a Government sanctioned policy that allowed members of the military to commit atrocities. They did occur and some people were not held accountable, many were held and paid a steep price. Japanese American were illogically incarcerated. They were not tortured or systematically worked to death. There was no US policy to eradicate the Japanese Americans. Injustices were committed against these loyal American for which we all should bear a degree of shame. In sum, Nuremberg (in this Soldier's opinion) took the people who visited and benefited from inflicting a tragedy upon the world and punished them. I see no hypocracy here, only decent people trying to make a better tomorrow by not forgetting yesterday.
My 2 cents.
DJ
ARENGCA
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Posted: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 05:07 AM UTC
The Nuremburg trials served several purposes, both at the time and in the years since.

First, the trials were based on the several agreements known as the Hague Conventions, and (later) the Geneva Conventions. (History guys help me here...can't remember the dates of these, and not sure if Geneva was before or after WWII.) These conventions established a code known as the Law of War. These 'laws' are pretty straightforward, and essentially forbid actions that are not militarily neccessary, cause unneeded suffering, or harm non-combatants (including civilians, wounded, and POWs). It doesn't take a rocket scientist (which the Germans had anyway) to figure them out. There are always a few parts that are subject to some interpretive debate, but overall things are pretty clear.

Up to that time, few military and government types were held responsible for violations of the Geneva and Hague Conventions. Germany was a signatory of these "Laws of War" as were most of the other combatants. In previous conflicts, post-war trials were formalities (kangaroo courts) that resulted in the executions of the accused. The US expended a good deal of effort in ensuring that the Nuremburg trials were fairly run, and not merely 'victors courts'. The proceedings were open, the accused were allowed a defense, and rules of evidence were followed. That there were any aquittals at all testifies to the general fairness of the proceedings.

One issue in the trials was the defense of 'higher authority'. That is to say, "I was ordered to do it, so I am not responsible." The trials established the precedent, and upheld the convention provisions, that this is no defense. Military personnel are morally and legally obliged to refuse orders that violate the Laws of War, whatever the result to the individual.

Also at issue was 'command responsibility'. That is to say, commanders are responsible for the actions of their troops. The extension of this is that commanders are obligated to prevent violations. Thus, commanders are obligated to provide the command climate and training for their soldiers, that cleary establishes that violations are not allowed.

In addition, ignorance is not an excuse. Commanders have a responsibility to stop and punish violations of the Conventions if they knew or reasonably should have known of the violations. This standard of reasonable includes the implementation of structures or staff procedures that would keep the commander informed of violations. So there isn't much room to say, 'I didn't know', for commanders all the way up the chain-of-command, including the civilian chain (who are also obligated under the conventions!). The convictions of several High Command officers were because of this type of violation. Just because some Private did the dirty work doesn't get the big bosses off the hook. This type of violation is arguably the most serious, since it abrogates the very basic responsibility of a commander to know what his people are doing.

The trials used these (and others) as the basis for their decisions, and in doing so demonstrated that conduct of war is not an excuse for barbarity. The trials set precedents for future dealings with war crimes, and we see those in action today in the Balkans. By clearly establishing an extra-national interest in the conduct of war, the trials motivated increases in training and regulations among many Western militaries. The 'My Lai Massacre/Incindent" in Vietnam was handled as a war crime, and the US Army reacted and responded because of the obligations that the Nuremburg Trials were based on.

Stop now, I will. Sorry if this turned into a rant. I hope it makes sense enough to help.
penpen
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Posted: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 05:30 AM UTC
Thank you Arengca, that was a great explanation !
ARENGCA
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Posted: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 05:45 AM UTC
PenPen-

"military necessity" is a broad and liberally applied standard in the Conventions. It is not hard to make a good argument for "military necessity" in many of the cases you cite. What is a target is clear, but the available weapons often turn it from a bullseye to a county. However, mis-treatment of POWs is not a necessity, and wholesale executions of non-combatants isn't either. Thus, many of the items described by anti-war types as 'war crimes' are not actually 'war crimes'. This includes the Dresden Raid (although the necessity of this is subject to debate), and various raids on Japan during the war.

The interment of Americans of Japanese heritage is considered an internal issued by the Conventions. Sad, shameful, bigotted and un-necessary...yes. War Crime...no.
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 07:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text

PenPen-

"military necessity" is a broad and liberally applied standard in the Conventions. It is not hard to make a good argument for "military necessity" in many of the cases you cite. What is a target is clear, but the available weapons often turn it from a bullseye to a county. However, mis-treatment of POWs is not a necessity, and wholesale executions of non-combatants isn't either. Thus, many of the items described by anti-war types as 'war crimes' are not actually 'war crimes'. This includes the Dresden Raid (although the necessity of this is subject to debate), and various raids on Japan during the war.

The interment of Americans of Japanese heritage is considered an internal issued by the Conventions. Sad, shameful, bigotted and un-necessary...yes. War Crime...no.



Amigo--well said. Appreciate your input.
DJ
stavka2000
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Posted: Sunday, August 18, 2002 - 05:50 AM UTC
Interesting dialogue here.

For the record, somebody was asking if Rommel would have been put on trial after the war. I don't think so. Rommel, and field marshal von Rundstedt, were military strategists only busy with the fighting of the war, not the rape and pillage campaigns.

Rommel was requested to commit suicide, as he was affiliated (=knew) von Stauffenberg, who was involved in the bomb plot against Hitler.

As far as merchant shipping being sunk by the Kriegsmarine, Admiral Dönitz was exeonerated from being a war criminal by the allies. Clearly the Allies saw that sinking of merchant marine was not a war crime. Heck, they did it themselves. No double standards here.

There are reports that Otto Kretschmer, one of the more famous u-boot aces, actually surfaced to give food and blankets to the survivors of ships he had torpedoed.

No doubt the scene from U-571, where they gunned down people happend on both sides as well.

I guess with 20/20 hindsight, I have to look at the Germans with different eyes than my grandmother, who after 50 some years still hates their guts. I have German and Austrian friends. Although we sometimes quip about the war (on of my German friends came inside from a smoke break and said "get out of my seat". I jokingly said I didn't take orders from Germans. His answer was "Ah nein, you already did that in the forties")., we both still know that what happened then should not happen ever again though.

As far as the firebombings of Dresden, I always thought that that was planned and executed by the Brits, and not the US, and that it was a response against the V1 and V2 attacks.

And on the question whether we should have used "the bomb" I would answer yes.

Regards,
ARENGCA
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Posted: Sunday, August 18, 2002 - 10:51 PM UTC
The standard of 'military necessity' applies to all the instances you cite. As far as we know, Rommel confined his activities to lawful military operations and left the atrocity stuff to others. He would not likely have been tried, except to clear him of any possible accusations. Other generals were tried based on violations, and a number of SS generals and officers would have been on trial also, had they survived the war.

The Dresden Raid remains a source of some debate. While there there were certain industrial complexes in the city, certainly burning it to the ground intentionally would be a violation of the Laws of War. However, if in the course of attacking those legitimate targets, the "collateral damage" (the current term for this sort of incidental results) caused the firestorm, then no violation. Remember that the technology used by the British, and the slightly more accurate American technology, was still a +/- 10,000 yard system. So bombs fell, and sometimes they missed.

If the actual destruction of Dresden and it's citizenry was a planned event, then the case for a violation is stronger. No system is perfect, and the vast majority of Allied leaders felt the the Dresden Raid was necessary and correct. It was only some time after the fact that the true scope of the devastation became apparent, and questions were raised. This is one instance that winning the war provides an advantage to the victor, and no one pursued this line of questioning.

Incidentally, although better publicized, Dresden was not the only firestorm/fire raid that occurred during the war. Numerous other German cities received the same treatment. An afternoon's walk around Nuremburg/Nurnberg itself provides ample evidence of the terrible results of Allied raids during the war. Scars still show all over the 'Old City', despite the rebuilding and renovation following the war.

The keys to understanding the applications of the Conventions are the idea of protecting non-combatants and avoiding un-necessary suffering and damage. Looking at the convictions, one can usually see that these keys are the basis of the original charges. Generally, if you could convince the court that an action was militarily necessary and didn't violate any of the specific protections of the Conventions (POWs, wounded, etc.), then you weren't guilty.

By the way, I am not a lawyer even if I sound like it. In my military speciality (Civil Affairs) we are expected to be very familiar with the Law of War and how it works. One of our roles is to advise the commander(s) on legal and moral issues pertaining to the Law of War and military/combat operations. There are also JAG lawyers who do the same, but we tend to be the guys on the ground making the assesments in real time. So, I know a bit about it.

I'll be quiet now.