_GOTOBOTTOM
History Club
Military history and past events only. Rants or inflamitory comments will be removed.
Hosted by Frank Amato
What If: The Allies vs. Kursk German Army ?
screamingeagle
Visit this Community
Connecticut, United States
Member Since: January 08, 2002
entire network: 1,027 Posts
KitMaker Network: 269 Posts
Posted: Sunday, August 11, 2002 - 10:28 PM UTC
Here's one to ponder guy's.........
...What if Kursk never happened...for that matter what if the
German's never fought Russia ?????????
The German Wehrmacht & Waffen SS at Kursk was a
freaking Juggernaut !!!!!!!!!! .........
This is what was thrown into the Kursk salient by Germany:
- One million men !
- 2700 Tanks ( Tiger 1's Panthers, Ferdinands, Pz Kpfw IV's and III's ).
- 3000 pieces of Artillery ( SP's , ATG's ).
- 1600 Luftwaffe Fighter's & Bomber's.
.........so what if they had this to throw up against the D-day Invasion, plus
what they already had available in the West ??
I think commom sense say 's the Allies get thrown back into the sea !
Another question that now come to mind is .....you think we still would have
went ahead with the invasion, had we known this is what we would be up against ?
I'd like to hear your view's and opinions on this.
Also remember that the German's had their best of the best at Kursk....the elite....
....battle hardened soldiers of such "crack " divisions as
- Panzer Div. Grossdeutschland.
- Heer - 3rd, 6th, 7th, 11th, and 19.Panzer divisions
- Waffen SS Leibstandarte - Das Reich - Totenkopf.
This alone was just Hermann Hoth's 4.Panzer Army.
...If you have ever seen a documentary on the battle of Kursk, it's really a sight
to see ! it's also hard to believe that the German's were defeated there, but as
we know ...they were
Ok guy's .........."COMMENCE FIRING - FIRE AT WILL " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- ralph
Folgore
Visit this Community
Canada
Member Since: May 31, 2002
entire network: 1,109 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Sunday, August 11, 2002 - 11:23 PM UTC
Though the German army at Kursk looked impressive, the Russian force was even more so. Along with other circumstances, it really wasn't that surprising that they lost, but that's not what this topic is about.
The Germans had to throw a lot more men into Russia than they did in the West, so you are right, things would have been a lot different. I think the war would have dragged on for a long time, because the Allies probably wouldn't invade until 1950 (+/- 5 years ). They couldn't take the risk of a full-scale invasion with those extra few million men in Europe.
One thing we can question, though, is how battle hardened some of these divisions would really be, certainly a few of them fought in North Africa (maybe with the extra men, the Germans could have taken the Mediterranean), but if we cancel Barbarossa, that's two years of hard fighting down the drain. Most of the German divisions would be just as experienced as any British or American one.
I don't think the Germans would be able to invade Great Britain. Eventually, the Allies would be able to build a larger army than Hitler's and make their own invasion, but it would be an even more bitter battle after that.
That's just my initial thoughts, can't wait to hear what others think about it.

Nic
Cob
Visit this Community
Washington, United States
Member Since: May 23, 2002
entire network: 275 Posts
KitMaker Network: 95 Posts
Posted: Monday, August 12, 2002 - 12:35 AM UTC
I may be wrong but...wasn't the Panther tank specifically designed and built to counter the T-34? If Germany hadn't fought Russia, what would have drove them (Germans) to develop beyond the Pz Kpfw IV ? It seemed to be working pretty well against the European armies of the time.
shiryon
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Member Since: April 26, 2002
entire network: 876 Posts
KitMaker Network: 256 Posts
Posted: Monday, August 12, 2002 - 02:54 AM UTC
I think we would have invaded but maybein 45/46. I also think we would have hit from two directions Normandy and southern france. Italy would have become more important, one as a staging area and two as a spring board for possibly a third front through the Alps. No matter how large the USs entry into the war put the manpower ratio out of germanies reach. It might have taken two or three years longer but the end would have been the same.

Josh Weingarten
aKA shiryon
SS-74
Visit this Community
Vatican City
Member Since: May 13, 2002
entire network: 3,271 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Monday, August 12, 2002 - 09:39 AM UTC
Ralph, I totally think that if the Wehrmacht had what they had in the Kursk and used it in the Normandy, it would simply defeated allies' attempt of liberation of the Europe. Because with the Kursk Wehrmacht, German had both qualitive and quantitive advantages.

By the way, I thought that at Kursk, the Wehrmacht, fought to a standstill, and a strategical defeat, but tactically, and in terms of tanks destoryed, the Wehrmacht actually came ahead of the soviets. Was it not?
sgtreef
Visit this Community
Oklahoma, United States
Member Since: March 01, 2002
entire network: 6,043 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,603 Posts
Posted: Monday, August 12, 2002 - 07:46 PM UTC
Russians whiped them bad at heavy loses but their was noway the Germans were going to win this one. The Juggernaut was with the Russians my friend. As a half German myself and a firm believer in the German might of WW2 the tide had shifted at Stalingrad in favor of the Russians. You don't lose an entire army group and survive long. If it was not for the better combat of the German soldier the war would of been over sooner. Had Hilter not broke his forces in two in1942 sending rements south to the Caucasus then the tide of war would of been different.
My 2 cents
screamingeagle
Visit this Community
Connecticut, United States
Member Since: January 08, 2002
entire network: 1,027 Posts
KitMaker Network: 269 Posts
Posted: Monday, August 12, 2002 - 10:33 PM UTC

Quoted Text

but tactically, and in terms of tanks destoryed, the Wehrmacht actually came ahead of the soviets. Was it not?


Hey 74 ............somewhere in one of my book's I have the exact numbers of what the
German lost, but unfortunately I can't find it.
I do know that between both armies, something like 700 tanks laid destoyed across the battlefield, just outside Prokhorovka.
...Jeff - In my opinion, I think the German were better soldiers, and one major factor
that kept the Russains going was their unlimited supply of infantry. Also remember
the Russian's used both men and women in battle.
When you do the math there was many, many more Russian's KIA then German's at Kursk.
Also the other factor of advantage the Russian's had .......like the American's ....was industrial might of war production.........which was well out of range of German bombers.
So yes your right the Russians were a juggernaut, but so were the Germans....they
just couldn't replace their losses like the Russian's did.............or any of the Allies
for that matter.

- ralph
sgtsauer
#065
Visit this Community
Missouri, United States
Member Since: March 30, 2002
entire network: 2,605 Posts
KitMaker Network: 650 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 06:00 AM UTC
If the allies stuck with the same timetable and force committment to the D-day landings, I doubt we would have made it off of the beach. In retrospect to the Eastern Front, I think if Hitler was taken out of the equation and his commanders were calling the shots, the Russians would have lost.

There are so many "what if's" and "could have's" that speculation could be infinite. It is interesting to ponder though.
sgtreef
Visit this Community
Oklahoma, United States
Member Since: March 01, 2002
entire network: 6,043 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,603 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

but tactically, and in terms of tanks destoryed, the Wehrmacht actually came ahead of the soviets. Was it not?


Hey 74 ............somewhere in one of my book's I have the exact numbers of what the
German lost, but unfortunately I can't find it.
I do know that between both armies, something like 700 tanks laid destoyed across the battlefield, just outside Prokhorovka.
...Jeff - In my opinion, I think the German were better soldiers, and one major factor
that kept the Russains going was their unlimited supply of infantry. Also remember
the Russian's used both men and women in battle.
When you do the math there was many, many more Russian's KIA then German's at Kursk.
Also the other factor of advantage the Russian's had .......like the American's ....was industrial might of war production.........which was well out of range of German bombers.
So yes your right the Russians were a juggernaut, but so were the Germans....they
just couldn't replace their losses like the Russian's did.............or any of the Allies
for that matter.

- ralph


Here is Kursk all wraped up http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/vy75/ without looking I would say Russian losses were 2 to1 but as Ralph said they could not find replacments after lossing the entire Army Group South last winter in Stalingrad

One more thing great subjects guys between you and the Colonel great subjects.To this day they still tell the story of one of the greatest conflicts man has ever seen. And hopefully will never have to see again
screamingeagle
Visit this Community
Connecticut, United States
Member Since: January 08, 2002
entire network: 1,027 Posts
KitMaker Network: 269 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 10:39 AM UTC
....man, I forgot all about that website !
THANKS JEFF !!!!

- ralph
SS-74
Visit this Community
Vatican City
Member Since: May 13, 2002
entire network: 3,271 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 11:53 AM UTC
What German should do is get rid of Hitler and stopr the non-sense about killing Jews, and team up with the West and kick the @#$% out of the Soviets, and get rid the communist problem once and for all, then the Mid-East stays the Western power protectorate (Must spelt that wrong!) and all will be well. :-) :-)
screamingeagle
Visit this Community
Connecticut, United States
Member Since: January 08, 2002
entire network: 1,027 Posts
KitMaker Network: 269 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 11:23 PM UTC

Quoted Text

What German should do is get rid of Hitler and stopr the non-sense about killing Jews, and team up with the West and kick the @#$% out of the Soviets, and get rid the communist problem once and for all, then the Mid-East stays the Western power protectorate (Must spelt that wrong!) and all will be well. :-) :-)


I'm behind you 100% Dave !
.........and "old blood 'n' gut's " Patton wanted to do exactly that !
One thing I totally despise was the Russian government ( bunch of commy !#%#!#!!!!#+## ).
Folgore
Visit this Community
Canada
Member Since: May 31, 2002
entire network: 1,109 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 11:28 PM UTC
Ralph--I just gotta ask, who (or what, if it's a model) is that a picture of in your avatar? To me, it kind of looks like Tom Berenger.

Nic
SS-74
Visit this Community
Vatican City
Member Since: May 13, 2002
entire network: 3,271 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 11:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

What German should do is get rid of Hitler and stopr the non-sense about killing Jews, and team up with the West and kick the @#$% out of the Soviets, and get rid the communist problem once and for all, then the Mid-East stays the Western power protectorate (Must spelt that wrong!) and all will be well. :-) :-)


I'm behind you 100% Dave !
.........and "old blood 'n' gut's " Patton wanted to do exactly that !
One thing I totally despise was the Russian government ( bunch of commy !#%#!#!!!!#+## ).


Yep, world without commies is a better place to be.
 _GOTOTOP