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Military history and past events only. Rants or inflamitory comments will be removed.
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Gunny
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Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 05:42 PM UTC
I really appreciate all the discussion of yesterday's post of mine, concerning Gen. Patton...Had no idea it was going to cause such a stir!!! I greatly admire the man as a soldier, but by no means do I agree with all that he said and done in his military career. As promised, I am posting another of George Jr.s quotes, for historical purposes, and I will continue to do so in the future. Thanks again for all of the feedback!!
Gunny

There is a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates.
Gen. George S. Patton Jr.
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 07:44 PM UTC
Mark-- the guys in this forum thrive on challenging discussions. Continue to follow your thread and participate. We keep our blows high and respect others' point of view. Keep those cards and letters coming.
DJ
GSPatton
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Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 05:25 AM UTC
Gunny - you keep up the Patton quotes.

George S. Patton Jr. was a lot of things. He was religious, he was profane, he was intollerant of those who did not support him and he was and will always be one of the most brilliant military commanders of WWII.

I too admire the man greatly and will defend him against anyone who wants to write him off as simply the general who slapped the shell shocked soldier. The sniviling SOB probably deserved it.
TheRedBaron
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Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 08:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The sniviling SOB probably deserved it.




Hmmm...

Same as it was ok to shoot guys for cowardice when suffering from combat exhaustion?

The term 'shellshock' is not the correct word. The actual syndrome is known as Combat Exhaustion, During WW2 the US Army had one of the most advance treatment systems for sufferers. The condition was not limited to 'sniviling SOB's'. Many veterans eventually succumbed to combat exhaustion and the US Army recognised that it was virtually impossible for a human to with stand more than 200 days combat without breaking down.

To dismiss these men as 'sniviling SOB's'. is, in my view, rather offensive and shows a lack of understanding of the actual condition. I would suggest that to gain a true idea of the syndrome you look at 'A War of Nerves' by Ben Shepard or 'Closing with the Enemy' by Micheal Doubler. Another good work on this is 'Hero or Coward' by Emil Dinter.

The syndrome can come on in many ways. The PTSD of Vietnam veterans is a relation to combat exhaustion. Are they 'sniviling SOB's'.???

My own Grandfather suffered from cobat exhaustion after Dunkirk. He fought with the BEF till evacuation from the Dunkirk beachead. The 'trigger' for the onset of CE was that he pulled his friends head off while trying to drag him to safety after a near miss from a Stuka. He returned home holding his friends severed head and spent sometime in a military hospital. He was released and continued to serve until severely wounded in Italy.

The attitude that CE sufferers are snivelling cowards is an outdated attitude that dates back to WW1.

As for Patton, I think he deserves to be tarnished by the awful incident in the hospital, as he does for his desire to declare war on the Soviets and his handling of Bavaria. As I stated on the other topic, a good divisional commander but overated as an army commander.
Gunny
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Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 06:02 PM UTC
Today's quote from Gen. Patton reflects the last two postings of yesterday, concentrating on "The Slapping Incident"

Gunny

General Joyce, to whom I have talked about the Drew Pearson incedent remarked, "George, just tell them the exact truth in your words; I had been dealing with heroes. I saw two men whom I thought were cowards. Naturally, I was not too gentle with them." "This is exactly true, but there is no use in repeating it."
General George S. Patton Jr.
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 07:30 PM UTC
I did some research on the combat exhaustion problem some years ago. As I recall, the WW II best method for treating this type of stress induced exhaustion was to get the individual off the line and back to a place where he could eat and sleep for about forty-eight hours. Then, to get people from his unit to visit and tell him that he was not a coward and that they wanted him back in the unit. This worked an amazing number of times. The stress in question is usually the result of a lack of personal hygiene and sleep deprivation. You have to eat, sleep and take care of your bodily functions to maintain a level of combat fitness. This is why any unit commander has to ensure his subordinates adhere to a rigid sleep and rest plan while in combat. If not, you will fry everyone in about twenty four hours.
DJ
Gunny
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Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 08:38 PM UTC
Well said, DJ...

I have spoken to and interviewed vet's of various wars and campaigns, both in my family and not, and have recieved various different responses and opinions about "combat stress". After evaluating these answers, I believe that it's a matter of personal courage that would effect men differently in battle(also taking in perspectives of different battle situations). It's a difficult thing to compare the courage of men in battle, as every man is different and every battle is different. Wars of yesterday cannot be compared to the modern day battlefield, considering the advancement of battlefield technology of today. Still, war is war, and without the proper R&R and encouragement of his fellow soldiers a man can break very readily. Gunny
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 10:34 PM UTC
Mark-- I would also state that I am not a believer in this Post Traumatic Shock cycle we now hear in connection with Vietnam. While I can appreciate that some poor guy held captive by the despicable North Vietnamese for years would experience psychological problems as a result of his inhumane treatment while incarcerated, the average guy who served there had limited exposure to anything "traumatic." I always view the so called victims as those wishing to prolong the myth of Vietnam veterans as unrewarded victims. To anyone who sobs and says "welcome home" at a reunion, I always say-- I served proudly and my Country owes me nothing, I owe it.
DJ
Gunny
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Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 11:07 PM UTC
DJ:
I can tell from your recent responses to various posts that you and I see things pretty much eye to eye, and it's a pleasure for me to be able to converse intelligently with someone without getting into a shouting match! I read your profile after my first post responses and I already knew that there was experience talking from your end. I hope to talk with many more posters out there on this fantastic site!!

Sincerely,
Gunny
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 11:18 PM UTC
Mark-- we use to have a few folks with barn yard manners regarding their dealings with other contributors. We pretty well police ourselves....continue to participate and do not fear raising the challenging question.
DJ
Frag
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Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 11:24 PM UTC
Hi guys, this is my first post in this forum. The discussion of General Patton caught my attention.

My dad, who died in 2000, served under Patton in the 3rd Army's 11th Armored Division from December, 1944 until the end of the war. As a grunt who's life was put on the line daily carrying out Patton's plans he had the utmost respect and admiration for Patton's leadership (even with the "slapping incident").

Gunny, keep up the quotes!!
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 01:13 AM UTC
Mike-- keep up the interest in the History Forum. Good to have you participating.
DJ
animal
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Posted: Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 04:28 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Mark-- I would also state that I am not a believer in this Post Traumatic Shock cycle we now hear in connection with Vietnam. While I can appreciate that some poor guy held captive by the despicable North Vietnamese for years would experience psychological problems as a result of his inhumane treatment while incarcerated, the average guy who served there had limited exposure to anything "traumatic." I always view the so called victims as those wishing to prolong the myth of Vietnam veterans as unrewarded victims. To anyone who sobs and says "welcome home" at a reunion, I always say-- I served proudly and my Country owes me nothing, I owe it.
DJ


I gather from your quote that you have not served in combat. I have been diagnosed with PTSD from the Vietnam War. I was wounded and watch a lot of my Brothers die a horrible death. I have to live with the guilt that I survived and they didn't. But this is ok because we did what we had to do so that Defense contractors can make a profit off the pain and suffering of others. I am sorry if anyone is offended by this but I take the statement above personal. If you haven't walk in their shoe's than respect what they give you. That is the freedom of speech and opinions. But don't put us down for it.
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 07:37 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Mark-- I would also state that I am not a believer in this Post Traumatic Shock cycle we now hear in connection with Vietnam. While I can appreciate that some poor guy held captive by the despicable North Vietnamese for years would experience psychological problems as a result of his inhumane treatment while incarcerated, the average guy who served there had limited exposure to anything "traumatic." I always view the so called victims as those wishing to prolong the myth of Vietnam veterans as unrewarded victims. To anyone who sobs and says "welcome home" at a reunion, I always say-- I served proudly and my Country owes me nothing, I owe it.
DJ


I gather from your quote that you have not served in combat. I have been diagnosed with PTSD from the Vietnam War. I was wounded and watch a lot of my Brothers die a horrible death. I have to live with the guilt that I survived and they didn't. But this is ok because we did what we had to do so that Defense contractors can make a profit off the pain and suffering of others. I am sorry if anyone is offended by this but I take the statement above personal. If you haven't walk in their shoe's than respect what they give you. That is the freedom of speech and opinions. But don't put us down for it.



Sir-- Well, since you asked I will respond. I proudly served our Nation and won my Combat Infantryman's Badge while serving as a platoon leader with Bravo Company, 1st Battalion, 7th Cavalry, 1st Cavalry Division until October of 1970. I liked leading men in combat so much that I returned to Vietnam for my second tour in 1971 and served once again as a rifle platoon leader with Bravo Company 1st Battalion 502nd Infantry, 101st Airborne Division. I also received the Purple Heart and spent seven months in the St Alban Naval Hospital recovering. I walk the walk. I have no feeling of guilt or doubt over the righteousness of what we did and how we did it. The Soldiers I served with were and remain great human beings and not one is asking for a government handout. My military career spans thrity years and I served almost the entire time in tactical units. I think I am qualified to comment that PTSD is a alot of psycho babble. This opinion is widely shared. See an interesting discussion of it in BG Burgetts' remarkable book--"Stolen Valor." I am now one of those "greedy" Defense contractors who work their butts off ensuring our Soldiers get what they need before they need it. I also enjoy exercising my right to free and responsible speech. Which is why I thoroughly enjoy the History Forum.
Trust this satisfies your inquiry.
DJ
animal
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Posted: Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 09:26 PM UTC
I too served my country for 27 years and receive no compensation other than my small pension. I was wounded and received the Bronze Star with V. I will defend your right to freedom of speech, as I have earned this right also. I apologize for making a negative statement toward you profession in the defense industry but I still feel offended that you can make statements about somethings that you are not qualified to make. I know that we have the phonies out there that make claims but please don't group all vets who have problems. I love my country and served her faithfully all my adult life also
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 09:58 PM UTC
If there is no such thing as PTSS, why did I spend 19 weeks on the flight deck of a VA hospital in 1980?
It's a shame that a war that ended in 1975, is continuing to not only divide our country, but also our veterans.
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 10:47 PM UTC
Gentlemen-- this is a discussion on military leaders. We now return to that discussion and request you participate.
thank you
DJ
animal
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Posted: Friday, August 20, 2004 - 12:14 AM UTC
This works for me too DJ. By the way Welcome home...
210cav
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Posted: Friday, August 20, 2004 - 12:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text

This works for me too DJ. By the way Welcome home...



Some wallow in self-pity and some continue to serve.
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Friday, August 20, 2004 - 01:57 AM UTC
denying the existence of something, does not mean it does not exist.
That's not wallowing is self-pity, that's reality
keenan
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Posted: Friday, August 20, 2004 - 02:20 AM UTC
Back on topic:
I think Patton was at least partially right in his assessment of the Russian threat at the end of the war.

Patton said: "Let's keep our boots polished, bayonets sharpened, and present a picture of force and strength to the Red Army. This is the only language they understand."

Eisenhower, in his farewell address to the nation in 1961 said pretty much the same thing. "Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations."

While trying to fight the Russians in 1945 after 6 years of war on the European continent seems reckless he was at least correct, IMHO, of the threat that they posed.

Shaun

EDIT: Subtraction was never my strong suite...UNEDIT

210cav
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Posted: Friday, August 20, 2004 - 02:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

denying the existence of something, does not mean it does not exist.
That's not wallowing is self-pity, that's reality



Profund observation. You are entitled to your opinion. Let''s get back to the topic as Shaun has given us the opportunity to discuss leadership.
TheRedBaron
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Posted: Friday, August 20, 2004 - 04:41 AM UTC

Quoted Text

While trying to fight the Russians in 1945 after 9 years of war on the European continent seems reckless he was at least correct,



9 years of war?

Er.... 1939 - 1945...

6 years of war...

Well if you want to discuss those who realised the threat from the USSR, look at Churchill and his pre-war speeches. Not too mention the British wanting to deploy troops to Finland if their war with the USSR had continued... God knows why!
210cav
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Posted: Friday, August 20, 2004 - 05:07 AM UTC
Interesting point. Should Churchill have gone with Stalin against Hitler?
keenan
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Posted: Friday, August 20, 2004 - 09:45 PM UTC
I don't think Churchill should have thrown in with Hitler. However, after the war started I think Churchill's idea of focusing Allied strength north through Italy and perhaps the Balkans would have yielded a better post-war outcome. The Soviets could not have usurped post war power over states they did not "liberate" from the Germans.
As an aside, I think Stalin was at least as maniacal, ruthless and murderous as Hitler, if not moreso.

Shaun

/Godwin's Law in 5,4,3,..../