Kyle,
A couple of links below. The first one is a truncated PDF file that has the top weapon vendors to Iraq. It is truncated because the sales prior to 1979, when Saddam took power, have been removed.
The second link is to the homepage of the organization who put the data together, the SIPRI.
The United States was never a big conventional weapon dealer to Saddam, let alone WMDS.
Hope this helps.
Shaun
Weapons to Iraq PDF file
SIPRI
EDIT The numbers on the chart are in constant 1990 US dollars in millions EDIT
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Is NATO still relevant?
keenan
Member Since: October 16, 2002
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Posted: Monday, July 12, 2004 - 03:16 AM UTC
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Monday, July 12, 2004 - 03:29 AM UTC
Shaun-- well done
DJ
DJ
phoenix-1
Member Since: December 25, 2003
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Posted: Monday, July 12, 2004 - 09:23 AM UTC
I stand corrected. Thanks for the correction. At least I won't look like an idiot in other conversations. 
Kyle
Kyle
4-Eyes71
Member Since: December 02, 2003
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Posted: Monday, July 12, 2004 - 09:43 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I think if you told us more about the book, we could better appreciate your observation.
DJ
My apologies, DJ. I just didn't want to be a spoiler. But the gist here is certain factions in France took power and they sought to create a united Europe with them as the leader. They formed an alliance of convenience with Germany and bullied other European nations to join them. Only the two English-speaking nations of the US and UK stood in their way.
The tensions increased as the US and UK tried to help the other nations bullied by the French. The French tried to put a stop to it. When casualties were inflicted, the US and UK once again are at war with the Franco-German coalition. In an attempt to even the odds, the French are extending overtures to Russia to tip the scales in their favor but due the intervention by concerned groups in Russia (with a little help from the CIA), Russian intervention failed and the European Confederation (EURCON) of France and Germany crumbled, especially when Germany realized they were used. There was a power struggle in France and the status quo was restored.
That's the story in the nutshell.
greatbrit
Member Since: May 14, 2003
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Posted: Monday, July 12, 2004 - 09:55 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI think if you told us more about the book, we could better appreciate your observation.
DJ
My apologies, DJ. I just didn't want to be a spoiler. But the gist here is certain factions in France took power and they sought to create a united Europe with them as the leader. They formed an alliance of convenience with Germany and bullied other European nations to join them. Only the two English-speaking nations of the US and UK stood in their way.
The tensions increased as the US and UK tried to help the other nations bullied by the French. The French tried to put a stop to it. When casualties were inflicted, the US and UK once again are at war with the Franco-German coalition. In an attempt to even the odds, the French are extending overtures to Russia to tip the scales in their favor but due the intervention by concerned groups in Russia (with a little help from the CIA), Russian intervention failed and the European Confederation (EURCON) of France and Germany crumbled, especially when Germany realized they were used. There was a power struggle in France and the status quo was restored.
That's the story in the nutshell.
hmmm interesting, and the way things seem to be going, not an unrealistic prospect.
general public opinion (myself included)in my country is bitterly opposed to the EU, and would welcome withdrawl.
im not at all a 'europhobe', i have some good freinds and aquaintences from several european countries, i just dont want to be ruled by someone from another country!
cheers
joe
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Monday, July 12, 2004 - 11:30 PM UTC
Joe-- hearing about some of the recent EU rulings, I can appreciate your comments.
DJ
DJ
crossbow
Member Since: April 11, 2003
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Posted: Monday, July 12, 2004 - 11:57 PM UTC
Quoted Text
general public opinion (myself included)in my country is bitterly opposed to the EU, and would welcome withdrawl.
Then explain why UKIP only got 16% of the votes...
If people in the UK were that opposed, you would think they would get a lot more votes?
Ok, I know
, but just curious...Kris
greatbrit
Member Since: May 14, 2003
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Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 12:10 AM UTC
kris, good question,
the problem with UKIP is they are a single issue party, and rely on gimmicks and celebrities to increase their publicity. they arent really seen by many as a realistic political party.
also an extensive smear campaign was waged against them by the pro EU lobby, trying to portray them as racists etc.
they only got 16% of the vote in the EU elections, but they had very few candidates nationwide. im the areas the had candidates, they won by large majorities. the 16% figure is of the national votes, however they only put out candidates in less than a dozen areas, so 16% is a serious victory.
plus if you look at results of independant opinion polls, you will find often up to 80-90% of those asked will say they want out.
sorry for going of topic DJ,
joe
the problem with UKIP is they are a single issue party, and rely on gimmicks and celebrities to increase their publicity. they arent really seen by many as a realistic political party.
also an extensive smear campaign was waged against them by the pro EU lobby, trying to portray them as racists etc.
they only got 16% of the vote in the EU elections, but they had very few candidates nationwide. im the areas the had candidates, they won by large majorities. the 16% figure is of the national votes, however they only put out candidates in less than a dozen areas, so 16% is a serious victory.
plus if you look at results of independant opinion polls, you will find often up to 80-90% of those asked will say they want out.
sorry for going of topic DJ,
joe
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 02:03 AM UTC
Joe-- I think we have kicked this one to death for the time being. I'll leave it open for the rest of the day for final comments.
DJ
DJ
keenan
Member Since: October 16, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 02:14 AM UTC
One last comment from my end: Thanks for the insightful discussion everyone.
Shaun
Shaun
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 11:55 PM UTC
Shaun-- well put. Let's move onto to something else.
DJ
DJ
penpen
Member Since: April 11, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 12:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI think if you told us more about the book, we could better appreciate your observation.
DJ
My apologies, DJ. I just didn't want to be a spoiler. But the gist here is certain factions in France took power and they sought to create a united Europe with them as the leader. They formed an alliance of convenience with Germany and bullied other European nations to join them. Only the two English-speaking nations of the US and UK stood in their way.
The tensions increased as the US and UK tried to help the other nations bullied by the French. The French tried to put a stop to it. When casualties were inflicted, the US and UK once again are at war with the Franco-German coalition. In an attempt to even the odds, the French are extending overtures to Russia to tip the scales in their favor but due the intervention by concerned groups in Russia (with a little help from the CIA), Russian intervention failed and the European Confederation (EURCON) of France and Germany crumbled, especially when Germany realized they were used. There was a power struggle in France and the status quo was restored.
That's the story in the nutshell.
Excuse me, but I'm a bit shocked by that book.
It just shows that people don't know much about the EU.
EU policies are not made by 2 dictators who impose their decisions on the others.
All nations are democracies. They can take their own decisions (some went to Irak, others didn't).
Some comon laws are VOTED in Brussels. No country can impose his decisions on the others, there's just no way. We are not always happy with the way decisoins are made (bureaucrats sometimes too far from realisties...), but still we have the chance to build friendship and cooperation between countries that were opposed in the bloodiest wars the earth has known.
Economicaly, the US has a big local market, which is a very good starting point for it's companies. This is just what Europe is trying to build with the comon market for it's companies.
Also, if our borders are now common. Wouldn't it be logical to defend them together ?
France and Germany just don't have the power, nor the rights, to bully any other countries in the EU.
I'm just trying to explain why this book is pure SF. It may just please an author to treat EU countries as the big bad war monging wolf just because they disagree with his views of world politics... but it's not very serious !
greatbrit
Member Since: May 14, 2003
entire network: 2,127 Posts
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Posted: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 12:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
France and Germany just don't have the power, nor the rights, to bully any other countries in the EU.
your right they dont, but they think they do, and would like to,
politicians from france and germany regularly try to bully countries into agreeing with them or voting with them on issues.
i assume you have been following the debate on the EU constitution? Chirac tried to bully blair into signing up to it on frances terms, and surrender our rights on defense taxation etc, it didnt work, but he damm well tried!
now the EU wants to rob britain of its subsidies etc, so not only will we continue to get screwed by paying in twice as much as we get out, we will get fleeced even more!
the EU is corrupt and undemocratic, why faceless unelected beaurocrats in brussels are allowed to force increasingly rediculous laws on the peoples of other nations is IMHO deeply damaging to my own country and probably most of the others too!
the sooner we withdraw the better.
the common market ideas are fine, but thats not what the EU is now, and i for one will not be part of a federal europe, i would rather live on mars than see my nations culture, heritage and way of life destroyed.
regards
joe
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